Author Topic: True analog scopes  (Read 50496 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #125 on: December 16, 2022, 10:46:46 am »
English as second language......what other excuse is there for such grossly wrong thinking ?
if EASL is a problem, we have TESL very well accepted in academic level. ;) the usual reasons imho is lack of googling, or hard to get rid old habit (i also have this syndrome in computer programming and CAD notions)

At one time walked then we used horses to pull carts then made cars and then planes....it's called progress and difficult for some to fathom or accept.  ::)
but people can still argue horses dont need gas, not poluting environment,...........
They can and will go hungry.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #126 on: December 16, 2022, 10:48:06 am »
or beginner who just came here ready to be educated.
This is our responsibility ^^^ to provide accurate and correct facts.

Correct.

And I know the accurate and correct facts.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 11:30:28 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #127 on: December 16, 2022, 11:22:02 am »
Just go on digikey (or whatever) and filter the oscilloscopes by "CRT"
Unfortunately this won't work. The presence of a CRT monitor does not guarantee that the oscilloscope is analog. HP/Agilent produced digital oscilloscopes with CRT monitors.

Also Tektronix and some others. All ( tens of) HP digital oscilloscopes what I have owned and used as I remember all have raster CRT including also 1GHz 54111D. 
But Tektronix "CRT" digital scopes what I have owned and used they all have used vector CRT (as normal analog scopes) for it and it was very nice. Just for example 2440 and example 7854 (but 7854 was bit different case with 10-bit digitizer and waveform analyzing processor (with separate keyboard))
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #128 on: December 16, 2022, 12:57:38 pm »
At one time walked then we used horses to pull carts then made cars and then planes....it's called progress and difficult for some to fathom or accept.  ::)
but people can still argue horses dont need gas, not poluting environment,...........
They can and will go hungry.
but their 'gas" is freely available grow on the land, sometime we even have to work to get rid of them. and their "waste" will enrich the land to grow more "gas", its the "naturally designed" recycling technology. you cant win! ;)
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #129 on: December 16, 2022, 02:32:50 pm »

\ the usual reasons imho is lack of googling, or hard to get rid old habit

"Googling" doesn't help to get "hands on" experience of modern DSOs.

Yes, you can look up the specs, or the operator's manual (if such exists), or maybe a Youtube video, but none of these match the experience of having the real thing in front of us.

If someone already has a functional Oscilloscope to hand, the much-touted advantages of the "latest & greatest" don't amount to an overwhelming argument for buying a new DSO.
If I had "money to burn", I might start collecting a bunch of new equipment, just so I could experience them at first hand, but sadly, I don't.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #130 on: December 16, 2022, 02:43:24 pm »
Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

Micsigs have a mode where they continuously adjust the horizontal/vertical scale to track the input signal - no need to press a button!  :)

It is hard to think of a more annoying feature!

Depends on the implementation. Watch this video at the 12:40 mark before deciding:



He leaves it on for most of the video. Just watch...

Having watched the relevant parts, I'm glad to see that it can be turned off, as that is where it would remain if I was using it.
When the input frequency changes, I like to see more or less cycles appear on the display, not rely upon the frequency readout.

I'm sorry, but I just couldn't warm to that iteration of the MicSig, the "joysticks" strike me as silly---either have a touchscreen only or provide the most important functions as rotary controls.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #131 on: December 16, 2022, 03:05:44 pm »
Having watched the relevant parts, I'm glad to see that it can be turned off, as that is where it would remain if I was using it.
When the input frequency changes, I like to see more or less cycles appear on the display, not rely upon the frequency readout.

OTOH I can imagine somebody poking around a PCB with both hands occupied and this could be really useful.

PS: The old Micsigs have this feature too...
 

Online BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #132 on: December 16, 2022, 04:17:14 pm »
At one time (we) walked then we used horses to pull carts then made cars and then planes....it's called progress and difficult for some to fathom or accept.  ::)
You are forgetting that horses and walking, especially walking, are indeed still good things today that do not have viable replacements in certain circumstances.  The same is true for analog scopes.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Online BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #133 on: December 16, 2022, 04:19:07 pm »
but people can still argue horses dont need gas ..
They produce plenty enough of their own. :-DD
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #134 on: December 16, 2022, 07:36:59 pm »
All ( tens of) HP digital oscilloscopes what I have owned and used as I remember all have raster CRT including also 1GHz 54111D. 
But Tektronix "CRT" digital scopes what I have owned and used they all have used vector CRT (as normal analog scopes) for it and it was very nice. Just for example 2440 and example 7854 (but 7854 was bit different case with 10-bit digitizer and waveform analyzing processor (with separate keyboard))
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #135 on: December 16, 2022, 09:25:58 pm »
Also Tektronix and some others. All ( tens of) HP digital oscilloscopes what I have owned and used as I remember all have raster CRT including also 1GHz 54111D. 
But Tektronix "CRT" digital scopes what I have owned and used they all have used vector CRT (as normal analog scopes) for it and it was very nice. Just for example 2440 and example 7854 (but 7854 was bit different case with 10-bit digitizer and waveform analyzing processor (with separate keyboard))

I have several Tek DSOs, a TDS784C that has a raster CRT display, a TDS3014 that has a color LCD, and then several TDS300 and TDS400 scopes that need various things that are all mono raster CRT. I know they made an early DSO with a vector display but I don't think I've ever used one.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #136 on: December 16, 2022, 09:54:53 pm »
All ( tens of) HP digital oscilloscopes what I have owned and used as I remember all have raster CRT including also 1GHz 54111D. 
But Tektronix "CRT" digital scopes what I have owned and used they all have used vector CRT (as normal analog scopes) for it and it was very nice. Just for example 2440 and example 7854 (but 7854 was bit different case with 10-bit digitizer and waveform analyzing processor (with separate keyboard))
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

I would recommend they use whatever is available to them.

What scope would you recommend to someone designing the world's fastest scope?

People do face that kind of decision, and using skill plus imagination is required. It is fun and beneficial to develop such an attitude, even when it isn't necessary. Looks extremely good in job interviews :)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 09:59:07 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #137 on: December 17, 2022, 12:30:20 am »
What scope would you recommend to someone designing the world's fastest scope?
if i can name one, could you afford it?
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Online BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #138 on: December 17, 2022, 05:37:54 am »
What scope would you recommend to someone designing the world's fastest scope?
if i can name one, could you afford it?
You can easily spend the price of a really nice suburban house with acreage and a private lake on an oscilloscope you don't have the means to use.  These scopes require you to design the circuit you are going to test to be testable by the scope.  @100GHz (or thereabouts) the concept of nice little handheld probes with ground clips is out the window.  If the device you want to test has not been specifically designed to be tested by one of these instruments, just go home and watch youtube, or jerk-off, or whatever.  Most of us can't reasonably make use of a 2GHz scope .. or afford one.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #139 on: December 17, 2022, 05:45:24 am »
Bonsoir à tous

fastest Tektronix CRT 7104, 1 ghz with 7A29 plug-ins.
https://w140.com/tekwiki/index.php/7104

 Tektronix made CRT, microchannel intensifier plate,distributed deflection plates,
Circa 1970s..1980s, originally for DOE, AEC,

Beautiful machines, but 50 Ohm Zo input, and very basic plug-ins.
I put a Ghz RF gen or Leonard Bodnar 40 ps pulser to see its incredible BW and transient response.  Excellence for very low PRF events or single shot.But a boat anchor, dominates the lab bench, impractical for scopecart.


So, acquired a decade ago with PUins  and original Tektronix service manual,  sadly,  from a silent key estate.  It's is still working  100%, with 7A29  Vs and 7B10, 7B15 H.  Used sparingly as  the MCP CRT has limited life.

Bon journée

Jon

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Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #140 on: December 17, 2022, 06:14:00 am »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get. Any scope is better than no scope, and the $400 that a modern Siglent costs is tough for a lot of students to justify. 54600 series HP/Agilent scopes can often be had for ~$100 in this part of the world, and the money saved there is often well-spent on other stuff - signal generators, soldering equipment, parts, etc.

For a new hobbyist that has the money but no experience, it probably makes sense to start with a new digital scope as long as they don't touch the stupid autoset button.
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #141 on: December 17, 2022, 06:43:19 am »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get.
Are you living in the same world as the rest of us ?
In 2 weeks I can something from anywhere in the world......1 week from China.

It's not about what you can get but instead the best instrument for today's and future use....they are not expensive.
The hobbyist might pick some CRO boat anchor use in their twilight years however to advise the EE's of tomorrow to get one is just downright irresponsible.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #142 on: December 17, 2022, 09:12:41 am »
What scope would you recommend to someone designing the world's fastest scope?
if i can name one, could you afford it?
If I was part of the team developing the world's fastest scope, yes the money would be available.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:25:39 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #143 on: December 17, 2022, 09:14:34 am »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get. Any scope is better than no scope, and the $400 that a modern Siglent costs is tough for a lot of students to justify. 54600 series HP/Agilent scopes can often be had for ~$100 in this part of the world, and the money saved there is often well-spent on other stuff - signal generators, soldering equipment, parts, etc.

Precisely. Spot on.

I am amazed that people continue to ignore those considerations.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #144 on: December 17, 2022, 09:24:33 am »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get.
Are you living in the same world as the rest of us ?
In 2 weeks I can something from anywhere in the world......1 week from China.

It's not about what you can get but instead the best instrument for today's and future use....they are not expensive.
The hobbyist might pick some CRO boat anchor use in their twilight years however to advise the EE's of tomorrow to get one is just downright irresponsible.

No, it is not irresponsible. I will leave others to comment on whether a Siglent scope salesman is being "responsible" when they say that, or whether there is some other motivation.

One of the best definitions of an engineer is "someone that can do for £1 what any fool can do for £10".

Frequently during a professional career people will have to make do with what's already available because
  • you need it now, not in a month's time
  • money has to be used for other necessary equipment
  • it won't pass the purchase request process
  • it is back at base, not here in the field
  • boss says you don't need it
  • there is nothing that is capable of doing the job
I've seen all of those, and had to find workarounds.

Might as well get engineers to think creatively from the outset. That's not true for technicians, of course - and vive la différence!
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:29:36 am by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline robert.rozee

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #145 on: December 17, 2022, 09:27:45 am »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get.
Are you living in the same world as the rest of us ?
In 2 weeks I can something from anywhere in the world......1 week from China.

It's not about what you can get but instead the best instrument for today's and future use....they are not expensive.
The hobbyist might pick some CRO boat anchor use in their twilight years however to advise the EE's of tomorrow to get one is just downright irresponsible.

NOT wishing to offend anyone, but while YOU may be able to get something from anywhere in the world, and YOU have the financial resources to pay some hundreds of dollars for a DSO, or professional* multimeter, or name-brand soldering station, etc... there are many people in this world who are POOR.

by POOR i mean having just a few dollars to spend on a hobby, who perhaps live in a tin shack, who access the internet via a $10 cellphone. or they may be a youngster whose parent(s) work 12 hour days and have ZERO spare cash to share once the weekly bills have been paid.

most folks on this forum likely are NOT so poor. but some are. and, indeed, most people in the world are. for those folks the "best instrument for today's and future use" is completely out of reach. so they make do with a $5 multimeter (ICL7106 based, manual ranging), a 2nd hand CRO if they are lucky, and whatever soldering device that can be scavenged for a few dollars.


cheers,
rob   :-)


* by "professional multimeter", i mean a good multimeter that is CAT rated, of either workshop or tradesperson grade.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2022, 09:40:29 am by robert.rozee »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #146 on: December 17, 2022, 11:38:50 am »
RE Cheap vintage CRT scopes:

Everything does NOT come from the internet or China!


At Paris flea mkts paid  EU 5 1 ch 10 MHz Hameg, EU 25 2 ch 20 MHz Hameg. (1980s,  , designed in Germany, made in France)

Similar old analog scopes on local FS websites like Craig List in USA or PAP, Le Bon Coin in France. Certainly others exist in every country!

Amateur radio fleas and estate sales are another source of great vintage equipment!

It takes time and work, and persistance...get off your mobile or PC/MAC and physically LOOK AROUND!

Seek and you will find!

Bon Chance!

Jon

An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #147 on: December 17, 2022, 03:29:03 pm »
It's not about what you can get but instead the best instrument for today's and future use....they are not expensive.
The hobbyist might pick some CRO boat anchor use in their twilight years however to advise the EE's of tomorrow to get one is just downright irresponsible.
No, it is not irresponsible. I will leave others to comment on whether a Siglent scope salesman is being "responsible" when they say that, or whether there is some other motivation.
he is being responsible, its just he keep suggesting Siglent brand, which is understandable, but narrowing the option a bit. there are many other options/brands like Rigol, Owon, Hantek etc, or even higher end Keysight/R&S etc, but the point is they are the same in the class more modern more usefull less risky DSO, not some boat anchor model...

i have here an old Advantest R3465 SA (still LCD version) that i got because its the cheapest in the market, thats all i can afford as hobbiest, its nearly $1K costed me. its now has some calibration issue that i dont know how to fix, not enough time resource to do finding faulty parts... then i can find much much older CRT version of HP/Tek SA, if its broken some unobtanium parts inside need replacing... who's responsible? you? the people who always like to advice on boat anchor CRT? here please pour in your professional advice if you think being responsible to poor people who want to do more thing with less. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/advantest-r3465-spectrum-analyzer-repair-help-input-attenuator/msg2456370/#msg2456370

One of the best definitions of an engineer is "someone that can do for £1 what any fool can do for £10".
..snip...
so tell me what £100 tool (i dont have to ask what £1 tool) + some imagination stretching we can use to build a 10GHz (i dont have to ask 100GHz) scope? talk rhetorical like Aristotle is easy. real engineers give concrete example! ;) cheers.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline baldurn

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #148 on: December 17, 2022, 04:00:18 pm »
NOT wishing to offend anyone, but while YOU may be able to get something from anywhere in the world, and YOU have the financial resources to pay some hundreds of dollars for a DSO, or professional* multimeter, or name-brand soldering station, etc... there are many people in this world who are POOR.

There are those with no money, or wishing to spend no money, that will take whatever they can get for free. Nothing wrong with that. However most will find to get into electronics in any serious way, you will need to spend at least little. For minimum spend and maximum gain I might propose something like Owon HDS242S as a far superior choice over any boat anchor.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #149 on: December 17, 2022, 06:00:18 pm »
With that vast experience what do you recommend for
1. The hobbyist with little or no scope experience ?
2. The young professional, say the EE student with limited resources ?

In both cases, it depends on what you can get.
Are you living in the same world as the rest of us ?
In 2 weeks I can something from anywhere in the world......1 week from China.

It's not about what you can get but instead the best instrument for today's and future use....they are not expensive.
The hobbyist might pick some CRO boat anchor use in their twilight years however to advise the EE's of tomorrow to get one is just downright irresponsible.

No, it is not irresponsible. I will leave others to comment on whether a Siglent scope salesman is being "responsible" when they say that, or whether there is some other motivation.
You really are pitiful tggzzz, play the ball and not the man please.
If I sold any other brand, even the market leaders would you still challenge my views ?

The days for commercial use of CRO's are gone pure and simple and a POV that you may not like but my nearly 10 years in business plainly displays otherwise and the conclusion I'd already arrived at before Siglent offered me NZ distributor.
I am very fortunate to see all levels of the NZ marketplace which unless you stand in my shoes you never will with some customers taking months to scrape enough together to purchase their first decent scope after also traveling down the road I went as a hobbyist with CRO's only to discover the obvious that unreliable old boat anchors are not worth the effort if you have limited time with your projects.....whom on earth needs to have to their fix tools before being able to use them ?

But no, you see a post from me and associate to a brand rather that respect my knowledge from the hard knocks road travelled to get here ..... pitiful.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 


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