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True analog scopes

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MarkL:

--- Quote from: james_s on December 18, 2022, 06:38:10 pm ---
--- Quote from: vk6zgo on December 18, 2022, 02:33:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: BillyO on December 18, 2022, 02:25:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Fungus on December 18, 2022, 01:51:08 pm ---DSOs have the same, and a few more, eg. Single shot mode where you trigger once and it grabs the signal so you can look at it at in your own time, maybe even zoom in for a closer look... very useful, but CROs don't do it.

--- End quote ---
Yes they do.  My Tek 465 does.  I also know the 475 and the 485 will too.

--- End quote ---
The 7613 also has it.
I've played around with it, but never really got a lot of sense out of it.
When/if I fix it, I will have to try again.

--- End quote ---

Single sweep on an analog scope is only really useful when using a scope camera or with a storage scope, both of which roughly mimic the behavior of a DSO, which as the name describes is another type of storage oscilloscope.

--- End quote ---
In the CRO days, it was often only important to know if a particular event occurred (e.g., "the bad thing happened"), and not particularly what the waveform looked like.  In single sweep, the scope would always indicate if it was waiting or if the trigger happened.  It didn't matter if the event was too fast or non-repetitive to visually capture.

In the simplest scenario, one could be waiting for a particular voltage level, but some of the old analog scopes had fairly sophisticated trigger systems to be able look for a specific event and on multiple channels, and some even had logic word-recognizer inputs to look for a pattern such as on a data bus.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: tautech on December 18, 2022, 07:01:05 pm ---A very relevant and undeniable point relating to this topic is not one A brand manufacturer still produces a CRO, why is that ?

--- End quote ---

Are you confusing the output display technology (cro/lcd) with the input front end technology (analogue/digitising/sampling)?

If so that's a silly mistake.

james_s:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2022, 07:43:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: tautech on December 18, 2022, 07:01:05 pm ---A very relevant and undeniable point relating to this topic is not one A brand manufacturer still produces a CRO, why is that ?

--- End quote ---

Are you confusing the output display technology (cro/lcd) with the input front end technology (analogue/digitising/sampling)?

If so that's a silly mistake.

--- End quote ---

Does it matter? As far as I know, no A brand is producing any sort of CRT based scope, whether analog or digital.

And as I've said before, I am skeptical that any manufacture is still making any type of CRT based scope, unless they are assembling them as needed from components that are stocked. I'm not aware of any factory still producing new CRTs of any type.

markone:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2022, 02:29:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: markone on December 18, 2022, 01:21:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2022, 10:07:48 am ----snip
No: when I returned to real-time embedded electronics, it was still 8-bit micros programmed in C. No change in 35-40 years :( Well, smaller, faster, cheaper, but that's only a change in degree, not in kind. The main things that have changed are nanopower and ADC/DAC speed/resolution.

--- End quote ---

Which period are you referring to ?

--- End quote ---

First period: early 80s to mid 90s.
Second period: 2015 to date.
Example technology: z80 and arduino atmega328 respectively. Yes, there were alternatives during both those periods, but those are sufficient to illustrate my point.

--- End quote ---

Probably we refer to different things, in my mind real time embedded electronics is something complete different where 32bits ARM (Cortex-M, Cortex-R and so on) dominate the market from 2004 with performance that 8 bits could only dream, Arduino is a toy for children.

I worked a lot with Z80 and 8051 in pure assembly code during the 80s and then in plain C with HC11 during the 90s together some expensive Analog Device expensive DSPs, after that everything changed in a way that probably is not clear to everyone, so i do not understand your statement.

It's enough to say that in the mid 90s to implement a brushless motor vector control with a simple HMI and field bus interface was necessary a DSP, an FPGA plus an 8bit MCU, nowadays its enough a 3-4 USD Cortex-M to do a much better job at sensible lower BOM cost.

To finalize, current tech state of real time embedded real time has nothing to do with 8bit era.

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: markone on December 18, 2022, 07:58:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2022, 02:29:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: markone on December 18, 2022, 01:21:57 pm ---
--- Quote from: tggzzz on December 18, 2022, 10:07:48 am ----snip
No: when I returned to real-time embedded electronics, it was still 8-bit micros programmed in C. No change in 35-40 years :( Well, smaller, faster, cheaper, but that's only a change in degree, not in kind. The main things that have changed are nanopower and ADC/DAC speed/resolution.

--- End quote ---

Which period are you referring to ?

--- End quote ---

First period: early 80s to mid 90s.
Second period: 2015 to date.
Example technology: z80 and arduino atmega328 respectively. Yes, there were alternatives during both those periods, but those are sufficient to illustrate my point.

--- End quote ---

Probably we refer to different things, in my mind real time embedded electronics is something complete different where 32bits ARM (Cortex-M, Cortex-R and so on) dominate the market from 2004 with performance that 8 bits could only dream, Arduino is a toy for children.

I worked a lot with Z80 and 8051 in pure assembly code during the 80s and then in plain C with HC11 during the 90s together some expensive Analog Device expensive DSPs, after that everything changed in a way that probably is not clear to everyone, so i do not understand your statement.

It's enough to say that in the mid 90s to implement a brushless motor vector control with a simple HMI and field bus interface was necessary a DSP, an FPGA plus an 8bit MCU, nowadays its enough a 3-4 USD Cortex-M to do a much better job at sensible lower BOM cost.

To finalize, current tech state of real time embedded real time has nothing to do with 8bit era.

--- End quote ---

Progression from 8 to 32 bit is part of *smaller faster cheaper", as is condensing a few PCBs into one chip. There is too little fundamental difference, particularly given the other hardware advances.

Fundamental advances might include formal specification and proof an implementation matches the specification, performance guarantees by design without measurement, multicore and distributed languages.

We need fundamental changes and advances, not incremental fiddles :)

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