Author Topic: True analog scopes  (Read 50469 times)

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Online mawyatt

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2022, 08:44:46 pm »
Find it interesting that just the mention of the word "scope" in any context, brings out all the repeated opinions, arguments and such  :wtf:

For someone that's planning on expanding their knowledge and creating income based upon such, then a more modern "scope" should be considered, since it's likely not to find older analog scopes in use at established labs, companies and universities.

Of course if it's just for home hobby use and "fooling around" then just about anything should prove useful, however will still stand by what we've said earlier that the wiser choice, even if it stretches one's budget, is a modern DSO.

A couple decades ago, one of the major discussions during presentations for securing large company investments (many $100K) for the university WAMI Labs was the students would be learning on some of the more modern equipment rather than the usual hand-me-downs that university labs had. Since these very students would soon become company engineering employees and need to learn how to use modern lab equipment, these WAMI engineers were initially more valuable since they required less "lab learning" and thus less initial company time/$ investment.

Simply they were a better bargain than ones without this WAMI lab experience, and more likely to get hired.

BTW much of the new lab equipment was donated by HP, Tektronix, R&S, Keithley, Anritsu and others, as they also bought into the program figuring when these "former students" were empowered with purchasing decisions, they would lean towards the equipment OEMs that supported their prior university lab experiences. Needless to say the program was highly successful and quickly copied throughout academia  :-+

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« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 08:47:37 pm by mawyatt »
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2022, 08:47:01 pm »
Those that haven't experienced modern equipment are excused for their ignorance as no longer is a scope just a scope but a LA, FRA, SA, Protocol analyser, Logger, FG and a remote capture instrument and all in a single small box at a single new instrument cost. One investment = most of an analysis lab.

How can even the experienced engineer not be seduced by all this capability or is it they are still living in another century ? Maybe all this technology in a single box blinds them.  :-//

I prefer single purpose standalone instruments in almost every case. I have yet to be impressed with the experience of "Swiss army knife" style test equipment, too often it tries to do everything and ends up doing nothing particularly well.

Just so.

But it is less of an issue if you are only doing simple "low end" measurements, and/or being a field technician. I've usually been pushing the envelope in a lab, so it hasn't been relevant to me.

When one bit breaks, you have to at least consider junking the lot or going back to having multiple instruments.

You may only be able to configure it to be a single instrument at one time, which can be a problem when you need two instruments simultaneously. Plus there being weird restrictions/interactions about which subset of capabilities can used simultaneously.I

And for beginners multiple instruments increases the size of the learning curve.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2022, 08:54:51 pm »
Find it interesting that just the mention of the word "scope" in any context, brings out all the repeated opinions, arguments and such  :wtf:

For someone that's planning on expanding their knowledge and creating income based upon such, then a more modern "scope" should be considered, since it's likely not to find older analog scopes in use at established labs, companies and universities.

Of course if it's just for home hobby use and "fooling around" then just about anything should prove useful, however will still stand by what we've said earlier that the wiser choice, even if it stretches one's budget, is a modern DSO.

A couple decades ago, one of the major discussions during presentations for securing large company investments (many $100K) for the university WAMI Labs was the students would be learning on some of the more modern equipment rather than the usual hand-me-downs that university labs had. Since these very students would soon become company engineering employees and need to learn how to use modern lab equipment, these WAMI engineers were initially more valuable since they required less "lab learning" and thus less initial company time/$ investment.

Simply they were a better bargain than ones without this WAMI lab experience, and more likely to get hired.

BTW much of the new lab equipment was donated by HP, Tektronix, R&S, Keithley, Anritsu and others, as they also bought into the program figuring when these "former students" were empowered with purchasing decisions, they would lean towards the equipment OEMs that supported their prior university lab experiences. Needless to say the program was highly successful and quickly copied throughout academia  :-+

Best,

I agree with that, have never said or implied therwise, and would emphasise the need to balance the cost of buying learning using equipment against the benefits.

In one example I'm familiar with, a division in a highly competent company spent the equivalent of 50 engineers annual salary on a piece of dev kit, simply to get to market 3 months earlier. Good choice in that case :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #228 on: December 19, 2022, 09:02:49 pm »
And for beginners multiple instruments increases the size of the learning curve.
Certainly and another argument for having multiple functionality in a single box.

This too requires a learning curve but the wise novice expects this and will purchase equipment with multiple capabilities for them to grow into as their skills and understanding develops.

We regularly have customers at all levels of experience selecting a single piece of equipment with LA, FRA, SA, Protocol analyser, Logger, FG and remote capture instrument capabilities and NOT expecting to fully understand the instrument until their skill develops.

Do you imply they are making foolhardy decisions ?
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Online bdunham7

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2022, 09:08:04 pm »
I prefer single purpose standalone instruments in almost every case. I have yet to be impressed with the experience of "Swiss army knife" style test equipment, too often it tries to do everything and ends up doing nothing particularly well.

So a separate ohmmeter, ammeter, DC voltmeter and AC voltmeter then?   :box:

I think you have to determine what the core function of the device is to see what is appropriate to package with it and what isn't.  A DMM is a DC voltmeter at it's core, so it makes sense to add on current shunts, a current source and an AC converter because those  other instruments as standalones would still need the DC voltmeter function. 

Where the CRO/DSO debate is concerned, I think the two are fundamentally different instruments at their core.  The CRO is a fast chart recorder or vector display depending on the setup while a DSO is a really fast low resolution sampling voltmeter.  It makes no obvious sense to 'add' something like spectrum analysis to a CRO because you'd really only be using the CRT as a display.  But if you have a high-rate sampling device like a DSO, then you can do all sorts of interesting things with the data without adding any hardware and that makes perfect sense to me.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2022, 09:09:50 pm »
And for beginners multiple instruments increases the size of the learning curve.
Certainly and another argument for having multiple functionality in a single box.

This too requires a learning curve but the wise novice expects this and will purchase equipment with multiple capabilities for them to grow into as their skills and understanding develops.

Not really. The same is true however many enclosures are on the bench.

Quote
We regularly have customers at all levels of experience selecting a single piece of equipment with LA, FRA, SA, Protocol analyser, Logger, FG and remote capture instrument capabilities and NOT expecting to fully understand the instrument until their skill develops.

Do you imply they are making foolhardy decisions ?

I wouldn't be so foolhardy as to assume my experiences match your commercial experiences, nor those of your clients.

Nonetheless, the technical points I (and others) make are valid.

There's no need to get so touchy about valid differences of opinion!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2022, 09:24:14 pm »
Those that haven't experienced modern equipment are excused for their ignorance as no longer is a scope just a scope but a LA, FRA, SA, Protocol analyser, Logger, FG and a remote capture instrument and all in a single small box at a single new instrument cost. One investment = most of an analysis lab.
No. Not by a long shot. Most of the extra features are handy but cover a limited use case. When I need to do network analysis, I use my network analyser (from 10Hz) because it has all the features that FRA on an oscilloscope lacks. For starters the ability to do an offset calibration. Function generator ditto; you'll end up needing a real function generator quickly and often the extra cost for enabling a function generator on a DSO just isn't worth the money at all.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2022, 09:35:57 pm by nctnico »
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2022, 09:27:49 pm »
I prefer single purpose standalone instruments in almost every case. I have yet to be impressed with the experience of "Swiss army knife" style test equipment, too often it tries to do everything and ends up doing nothing particularly well.

So a separate ohmmeter, ammeter, DC voltmeter and AC voltmeter then?   :box:

It can be fun to push arguments beyond reasonable boundaries :)

Quote
I think you have to determine what the core function of the device is to see what is appropriate to package with it and what isn't.  A DMM is a DC voltmeter at it's core, so it makes sense to add on current shunts, a current source and an AC converter because those  other instruments as standalones would still need the DC voltmeter function. 

Where the CRO/DSO debate is concerned, I think the two are fundamentally different instruments at their core.  The CRO is a fast chart recorder or vector display depending on the setup while a DSO is a really fast low resolution sampling voltmeter.  It makes no obvious sense to 'add' something like spectrum analysis to a CRO because you'd really only be using the CRT as a display.  But if you have a high-rate sampling device like a DSO, then you can do all sorts of interesting things with the data without adding any hardware and that makes perfect sense to me.


The proposition was to bundle AWGs, digital pattern generators, logic analysers, protocol analysers into one box, which is a little more than that.

 Certainly the bundled logic and protocol analysers I have used are far less capable than dedicated instruments, and are only capable of trivial measurements. But such trivial measurements are ideal for salesmen doing demos, since it would be too difficult to explain the more complex uses cases that engineers have to deal with.

But on the subject of using a scope as a spectrum analyser... With an 8 bit ADC optimised for sampling rate, there will be many spurious artefacts in a non-trivial FFT spectrum that will, um, muddy the picture. I prefer to avoid spurious artefacts whenever possible, since distinguishing them from the signals can be tedious and error prone.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline james_s

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2022, 09:28:25 pm »
So a separate ohmmeter, ammeter, DC voltmeter and AC voltmeter then?   :box:

I think you have to determine what the core function of the device is to see what is appropriate to package with it and what isn't.  A DMM is a DC voltmeter at it's core, so it makes sense to add on current shunts, a current source and an AC converter because those  other instruments as standalones would still need the DC voltmeter function. 

Where the CRO/DSO debate is concerned, I think the two are fundamentally different instruments at their core.  The CRO is a fast chart recorder or vector display depending on the setup while a DSO is a really fast low resolution sampling voltmeter.  It makes no obvious sense to 'add' something like spectrum analysis to a CRO because you'd really only be using the CRT as a display.  But if you have a high-rate sampling device like a DSO, then you can do all sorts of interesting things with the data without adding any hardware and that makes perfect sense to me.

Obviously not everything should be broken down, a multimeter is a handy multipurpose tool. For some cases it would make sense to have dedicated more specialized instruments for some of the functions.

I'm firmly in the DSO camp and it's nice to have features like spectrum analysis although in practice I rarely use it. I have no interest in function generators and logic analyzers and such in a scope though.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2022, 09:29:55 pm »
Those that haven't experienced modern equipment are excused for their ignorance as no longer is a scope just a scope but a LA, FRA, SA, Protocol analyser, Logger, FG and a remote capture instrument and all in a single small box at a single new instrument cost. One investment = most of an analysis lab.
No. Not by a long shot. The extra features are handy but cover a limited use case. When I need to do network analysis, I use my network analyser (from 10Hz) because it has all the features that FRA on an oscilloscope lacks. For starters the ability to do an offset calibration. Function generator ditto; you'll end up needing a real function generator quickly and often the extra cost for enabling a function generator on a DSO just isn't worth the money at all.

Precisely.

But the all-in-one-box sales demo is undoubtedly seductive to the unwary.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #235 on: December 20, 2022, 07:42:34 am »
One of the problems that modern scopes have, in my mind, is that they try to do everything. That's what can them such a chore to use for normal scope operations, for the same reason that an old cell tower service analyzer is a real chore to use as a spectrum analyzer. It's like Windows - MS throws everything in the kitchen sink, along with lots of buzzwords into their release, and the result is that it is awful at everything.

The idea of adding a logic analyzer to a scope is sound - stuff these days is usually mixed signal anyway. In my experience, however, the screen real estate on most scopes is quite limited, and it ends up being miserable to use.

The FFT on a scope remains a pathetic substitute for a spectrum analyzer. Would you buy a 500 MHz spectrum analyzer with 8 bit dynamic range? Didn't think so. It's a nice feature for interpreting goofy waveforms, and maybe some crude EMI debugging in a pinch, but that's the total extent of its usefulness.

The additional hardware required by a signal generator, however, is considerable. It's a whole new device being added, and there's no good reason for it to be in the same box. It's too frustrating to use two-in-one or five-in-one devices of this nature - ditto for DVMs. If you cram a signal generator into a normal scope envelope, you inevitably make a serious sacrifice. Even if the electrical performance is acceptable, the UI won't be.
 

Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #236 on: December 20, 2022, 08:02:13 am »
It is however when you need to invest in a working scope one need consider if what's available is a worthy investment. Old stuff is just that, old and nearing the end of that bell curve of reliability where the novice especially isn't well served by some unreliable junk that needs a duplicate to help fix it.
Often that novice, a new Uni student is more focussed on projects and studies rather than need fix some old boat anchor. Here in NZ there is not the resources of old scopes in working condition and why would a budding engineering student even want to use one when at Uni they are to use better, much better.


What are you doing to these things to make them so unreliable? I'm trying to remember the last time I've witnessed an analog scope fail. Usually the ones that need fixing are the ones that have been worked on to the nth degree by someone that decided to replace every capacitor in sight.

By far the least reliable scopes I've seen are some of the old Rigols (and Rigols with an Agilent sticker on them) that seem to have chronic encoder problems.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2022, 08:04:16 am by H713 »
 

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #237 on: December 20, 2022, 09:22:37 am »
It is however when you need to invest in a working scope one need consider if what's available is a worthy investment. Old stuff is just that, old and nearing the end of that bell curve of reliability where the novice especially isn't well served by some unreliable junk that needs a duplicate to help fix it.
Often that novice, a new Uni student is more focussed on projects and studies rather than need fix some old boat anchor. Here in NZ there is not the resources of old scopes in working condition and why would a budding engineering student even want to use one when at Uni they are to use better, much better.


What are you doing to these things to make them so unreliable? I'm trying to remember the last time I've witnessed an analog scope fail.
Just using them.
At one time my hobby was repairing and selling scopes, any scope that could be found cheap that preferably had manuals available online or they came with them but schematics was a must !

It first started with an English Telequipment D83 given by my mentor that only required a NTC thermistor for the LV primary side EHT inverter but went onto be somewhat unreliable even though that model were made after Tek had acquired Telequipment and it had such a nice CRT the same as Tek used in their 7603.
Last scope to sell.

After that was a HP1740 that had numerous issues including the common terrible cracked solder joints on the PCB connector plug.  ::)
In the meanwhile I was starting to look at DSO's and saved myself from buying a UNIT DSO but instead a Tek TDS2102B.  :phew:
Had been looking at GW Instek but they were overpriced locally.

The Tek became my main scope allowing for accuracy comparisons after repairs of CRO's of which there were a few more:
Aussie BWD
Tek 500 < Gorillas been inside. Love job for the mentor.
English Bradley < EHT transformer secondary winding open, white silicon potted in ferrite pot core on the first layer.  :phew: Lost just 2 turns so adjusted to spec just fine.

Then a couple of DSO's were scored, an infamous TDS210 with the typical busted input BNC's and the need to check it wasn't a recalled SN#. New BNC's and custom mods for it to never happen again.  :horse:
Later a monochrome 60 MHz TDS1002B IIRC with a dead backlight in which the RC for the backlight push/pull oscillator had lost all its C and was just a few pF's !  :-DD
A 60c TH 330nF cap fixed it for a darn good profit as I'd been given it by an EE friend that couldn't be bothered to fix it and instead brought a new Tek.  ::)
The BWD was also sourced from a tech, a TV tech that obviously didn't know where to start as it came with full manuals and like many old Teks suffered from Tants used too close to their voltage rating.  ::)
Another easy fix.  :)

Lessons learnt were there is some circuitry in CRO's that's under stress particularly within the EHT that can't be ignored and mostly is the cause of a not quite right CRO and due to the elevated voltages and not an area the general EE is comfortable working on. Like it or not, this you just can't escape EHT with CRO design and to some degree with early DSO's too that used CCFL LCD backlight.

With these some years of hands on experience I went looking for competitively priced DSO's in brands that at that time were not represented in NZ and by luck teamed up with Siglent very nearly 10 years ago shortly after which the TDS2012B gave up the ghost in protest.  :-DD
It sits unfixed in a box as penance for letting me down where its failing was convection cooling using a top vented chassis allowing crud to settle on IC pins and our humid climate did the rest......another lesson learnt, you can stick your convection cooled equipment where the sun don't shine !

And some accuse me of insufficient experience.  ::)
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #238 on: December 20, 2022, 11:19:01 am »

It first started with an English Telequipment D83 given by my mentor that only required a NTC thermistor for the LV primary side EHT inverter but went onto be somewhat unreliable even though that model were made after Tek had acquired Telequipment and it had such a nice CRT the same as Tek used in their 7603.
Last scope to sell.


A while after Tektronix bought Telequipment, I notice that those Tektronix modules assembled at the old Guernsey factory had a noticeably larger percentage of niggling faults than the ones from Beaverton.
It seems that instead of Telequipment getting better, Tektronix got worse!

This was only for about a year, after which, they seemed OK.

That said, Tek could make crap, as witness the 650 series Picture Monitors.
They were truly dire, although they had some strong competition in that category, with the field containing such merdé as some of the Philips things, or the truly gigantic all vacuum tube PAL colour monitor from Blaupunkt that Telecom Aust bought in the early 1970s.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #239 on: December 20, 2022, 11:32:27 am »
And some accuse me of insufficient experience.   ::)

Mirror ::)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #240 on: December 20, 2022, 11:37:29 am »
Meanwhile, back on topic, as a 66 year old greybeard, I still have a couple of CRT analogue oscilloscopes in the cupboard, but they never really get used. The Keysight MSOX3104T does it all, including ‘analogue’ things like audio and XY, only better

I looked up the purchase price of that, as can anyone else.

But how much is the household contents insurance for it and does that include "accidental damage"? ::)

If I had one, it would be on my bench too :)
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Offline BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #241 on: December 20, 2022, 12:45:14 pm »
Meanwhile, back on topic, as a 66 year old greybeard, I still have a couple of CRT analogue oscilloscopes in the cupboard, but they never really get used. The Keysight MSOX3104T does it all, including ‘analogue’ things like audio and XY, only better

I looked up the purchase price of that, as can anyone else.

But how much is the household contents insurance for it and does that include "accidental damage"? ::)

If I had one, it would be on my bench too :)
Yeah, for $23K it better be able to make coffee and clean the floors too.  Can anyone say "ostentatious"?  I have some trouble with that after a couple of glasses of wine.
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Offline switchabl

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #242 on: December 20, 2022, 01:24:17 pm »
Well, at 1 GHz I guess the closest analog equivalent may have been the Tek 7104 (with 7A29, 7B15 and 7B10)? According to TekWiki that had a list price of $44,510 when it was discontinued in 1990 ($97,900 in 2022 USD).
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #243 on: December 20, 2022, 01:40:48 pm »
Well, at 1 GHz I guess the closest analog equivalent may have been the Tek 7104 (with 7A29, 7B15 and 7B10)? According to TekWiki that had a list price of $44,510 when it was discontinued in 1990 ($97,900 in 2022 USD).
How many hobbyists do you imagine had one of these in their basement in 1990?
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Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #244 on: December 20, 2022, 02:41:14 pm »
I prefer single purpose standalone instruments in almost every case. I have yet to be impressed with the experience of "Swiss army knife" style test equipment, too often it tries to do everything and ends up doing nothing particularly well.

So how much does all that cost? How much bench space do you need?
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #245 on: December 20, 2022, 02:43:00 pm »
Well, at 1 GHz I guess the closest analog equivalent may have been the Tek 7104 (with 7A29, 7B15 and 7B10)? According to TekWiki that had a list price of $44,510 when it was discontinued in 1990 ($97,900 in 2022 USD).
How many hobbyists do you imagine had one of these in their basement in 1990?

Very few, naturally. Just thought that would add some interesting context. (New) GHz scopes are all expensive and used to be a lot more so (even though to my knowledge none of them ever made coffee).

If you don't need that kind of bandwidth, you can get MegaZoom IV scopes, with all their advantages (and disadvantages!), for a lot less.
 
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Offline BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #246 on: December 20, 2022, 03:14:51 pm »
If you don't need that kind of bandwidth, you can get MegaZoom IV scopes, with all their advantages (and disadvantages!), for a lot less.
Yeah, even the low cost 1GHz scopes are still ~$7K+.  I'm happy with my $1K scope that give me better than 600MHz.  That extra 400MHz is not worth the extra $6K to me.  Add to that that the $7K 1GHz scopes only come with 500MHz probes.  You need to spend another $4K to get the full speed out of them.  As it is I'm trying to source a couple of 750MHz probes so I can get the best out of the scope I have.  My current probes only go to 500MHz. :palm:
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #247 on: December 20, 2022, 04:54:25 pm »
Well, at 1 GHz I guess the closest analog equivalent may have been the Tek 7104 (with 7A29, 7B15 and 7B10)? According to TekWiki that had a list price of $44,510 when it was discontinued in 1990 ($97,900 in 2022 USD).

When Tek 465s were current every-lab-has-one scopes (mid-late 70s), they cost around an engineer's annual salary. By that token the Keysight MSOX3104T are relatively cheap.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #248 on: December 20, 2022, 05:36:20 pm »
If you don't need that kind of bandwidth, you can get MegaZoom IV scopes, with all their advantages (and disadvantages!), for a lot less.
Yeah, even the low cost 1GHz scopes are still ~$7K+.  I'm happy with my $1K scope that give me better than 600MHz.  That extra 400MHz is not worth the extra $6K to me.  Add to that that the $7K 1GHz scopes only come with 500MHz probes.  You need to spend another $4K to get the full speed out of them.  As it is I'm trying to source a couple of 750MHz probes so I can get the best out of the scope I have.  My current probes only go to 500MHz. :palm:

Resistive probes are fairly inexpensive and at 1GHz, I would imagine many people will make their own. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fifty-ohm-probes/

For me the choice isn't true analog vs digital, it's used digital vs used digital.  The only way I can afford to play is to lag 10+ years behind.   

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #249 on: December 20, 2022, 06:37:48 pm »
Yeah, even the low cost 1GHz scopes are still ~$7K+. 
Correct, officially.  ;)
In reality you can get the same HW in a 500 MHz version for $ 5890 and hack it.
I had one for several years until a customer wanted it earlier this year.

But with still a few days of 2022 left you can get the 500 MHz model on promotion with a free BW upgrade to 1 GHz.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 


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