Author Topic: True analog scopes  (Read 50446 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #350 on: December 27, 2022, 06:19:41 am »
Here, SDS1202X-E  is discontinued and replaced  " SDS1202X+ (DISCONTINUED > SEE SDS1000X-E SERIES)"
See here and the 2ch X-E is on special until years end:
https://siglentna.com/product/sds1202x-e/

Quote
Any way these things seem all about same price and tarred by the same brush, see page 33 of SDS1000CML manual.
That is same problem I have with excessive menu depth on the GWInstek.
What is your comment on that?
Menu depth is relative to feature set depth, pure and simple.

Minimal feature set like with a CRO you can fit all the buttons, knobs and switches on the front panel and have everything visible without any need for a menu.
I went to DSO's in 2009 with a Tek TDS2012B and apart from a little time gaining familiarity with the much greater feature set than a CRO, I never looked back and some 4 years later knowing DSO's were the future and by pure chance I teamed up with Siglent after a little foray with Atten.

The only thing you need do different using a DSO and really it still applies with a CRO is plan a strategy to take a measurement and you do the same with a CRO although after years of using one you don't really know you're doing it.
It's the same just a different path to get the same result.
Now I no longer have or even wish to have a CRO and immersing yourself in DSO usage is far easier as you think about how to take the exact same measurement but in a different manner.

My advice is not to be scared of a menu but instead understand why it is there and what it is for and then learn to use it for best effect which soon will repay you.
We spend years learning all the new devices in the EE world and resist learning the new test equipment technologies ? Why ?  :-//
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 06:21:52 am by tautech »
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Offline David Hess

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #351 on: December 27, 2022, 06:44:48 am »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

If you want a simple criteria, which DSOs have a separate slope control?  I can think of a couple, and they are all old enough to drink.  Exclude instruments which can display both slopes at the same time, because those are also old enough to drink.

 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #352 on: December 27, 2022, 08:05:46 am »
Hi tautech, thanks for reply
We will leave the comment about your in-experience with op amp aside.

About user controls: Did you work with transients?
The best 'scope for transients, inverters etc  in my 50 year career was the Tektronics 466 .
I still use one in retirement.   About 9 push buttons in 3 groups.
I am presently working on design of some more inverters, using qucs and the '466.
 I have a plastic DSO there for when it is useful.
 

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #353 on: December 27, 2022, 08:19:50 am »
About user controls: Did you work with transients?
Transients as in fast high current pulses, yes.
Years back I played with simple lead battery desulfators comprising of a battery powered (battery under desulphation) and an optimised pulser delivering ~60V @ 7A at 1kHz.
Carefully tuned to get highest possible magnetics without saturating the core so to get best results without energy wastage.
Some say it's voodoo but when battery OC voltage increases overnight even after powering the desulfator you just know it's improving the status of the plates.

If I weren't so busy catching up with outside jobs after our darn wet spring I should get some screenshots as I never saved any all them years ago. Pulser is somewhere here amongst the messy bench.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #354 on: December 27, 2022, 11:03:12 am »

MrAl was doing a complex test-specific calculation of switching losses, not a simple standard stats function.  If the measurement is important, it needs to be visible and reproduceable, which is questionable if done inside one specific instrument. (just like a spreadsheet calculation without the formulae being visible)


Yes and how do you know how precise that measurement is if you do not do statistics on it?

Here's the calculation you again omitted to include...
I remember years ago trying to measure the rise, slope, and fall times of switching waveforms in high power converters so i could estimate the switching losses.  It took about 15 minutes to get right and the calculation had to be done on a calculator or computer.
If the scope could measure rise and fall times that would help.  Mine does not have that function though but i see some of the upper echelon scopes have that feature.

That calculation does not require any statistics. It does require calculus in the form of integration.


Quote
Just to be sure, since this thread IS about analog vs DSO, how would you do it with an analog scope (a true analog scope, not those half digital things that can do digital measurements)? I am actually curious and does not know the answer. Would it not be in fact be hard and time consuming to get the same level of precision, that we get by default just by pressing the stat button?

Strawman argument.

I was responding to what MrAl wrote, not something else.

In future please quote the relevant context; do not attempt to make strawman arguments by omitting context/
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #355 on: December 27, 2022, 11:09:24 am »
tautech said:
Quote
Greybeards go on as if this basic stuff is from some other planet.  :-//


I as graybeered give example of "poor" HMI based on the GWI1202B here

A most basic selection is trigger source.
It requires  3 "pecks" to get the menu followed by a "screwing around" the Variable knob which has no detents.
Try to align it with the selection.
That really puts me off using it.
 I will let the 17 year old here try it and ask him.
So you have a bad experience with a single brand and you throw all DSO's by implication into the same group ?

That's like saying all opamps are crap just because you can't get one to work like you want to.

All DSOs have that problem in one area or another to a greater or lesser extent.

Opamps all have problems too. It just means you have to carefully select the opamp so that its non-idealities matches your application.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #356 on: December 27, 2022, 11:20:46 am »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

Precisely.

Another problem that's not going away: when someone's salary depends on selling X, it will difficult to get them to acknowledge problems with X.

Classic OT example: try to get a Tesla salesman to show you how to switch on the windscreen demister safely (i.e. without taking your eyes off the road). Last one I asked only managed to switch on the seat heater; previous one had to reconfigure the GUI including dragging heiroglyphs/icons to a taskbar! When they say you don't have to be watching the road all the time because of its "safety" features", try (in vain) to get them to define what "full self driving (beta)" means in terms of what you aren't responsible for when it is engaged
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #357 on: December 27, 2022, 12:15:30 pm »
Classic OT example: try to get a Tesla salesman to show you how to switch on the windscreen demister safely (i.e. without taking your eyes off the road). Last one I asked only managed to switch on the seat heater; previous one had to reconfigure the GUI including dragging heiroglyphs/icons to a taskbar!

That's because you're asking a stupid question.

The correct way to do it is to press the button then say, "demister on"?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #358 on: December 27, 2022, 12:25:19 pm »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

(some of us already have them)
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #359 on: December 27, 2022, 01:04:20 pm »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

Along with glossy screens which pick up every fingerprint and massive problems with glare from the windows and office lights.
 

Offline robert.rozee

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #360 on: December 27, 2022, 01:53:39 pm »

[...] example of "poor" HMI based on the GWI1202B here
[...]
followed by a "screwing around" the Variable knob which has no detents.
Try to align it with the selection.
That really puts me off using it.
[...]

my Siglent SDS-1104X-E has exactly the same problem with the "multi-function" knob lacking detents. other knobs have detents, why not this one?! this is my single greatest complaint about the scope.

it would be great if Tautech could find out from Siglent an exact mechanical replacement part number that does have detents, and do a detailed video on how best to dismantle the scope and replace the detentless offender.

better yet, to hold stock of replacements for those users that are driven nuts by the detentlessness!


cheers,
rob   :-)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 01:55:59 pm by robert.rozee »
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #361 on: December 27, 2022, 04:09:01 pm »
Classic OT example: try to get a Tesla salesman to show you how to switch on the windscreen demister safely (i.e. without taking your eyes off the road). Last one I asked only managed to switch on the seat heater; previous one had to reconfigure the GUI including dragging heiroglyphs/icons to a taskbar!

That's because you're asking a stupid question.

The correct way to do it is to press the button then say, "demister on"?

After five minutes spent failing to do it with a control, the salesdroid said he could do it with voice control. I said that would be OK with me; he tried, and that's when the seat heater turned on! I didn't bother to ask whether it works just as well while driving and where there's no radio connectivity (think Alexa!)

So, sorry, your suggestion didn't work - and the Tesla failures were worse than you imagined :)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:26:18 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #362 on: December 27, 2022, 04:16:44 pm »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

(some of us already have them)

I know you were thinking of scopes, but applying that principle to car controls...

And how, exactly, does the driver find the right icon with their fingertip when they have their eyes on the road? They must legally have their eyes on the road, since they are legally responsible. (Tesla droids are practitioners of Orwellian DoubleSpeak: you can simultaneously trust the "full self driving (beta)", but must not trust it to have "full self-driving (beta)" responsibility)

Both Tesla droids had their eyes off the road for enough time to have found a cliff or several children. Perhaps you should pull over and stop when you need to change the demister controls?!

(I haven't had a chance to verify David Hess' point, since I've only tried asking a droid inside a shopping centre! His question is valid, though.)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:28:48 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #363 on: December 27, 2022, 05:19:00 pm »
Quote from: fungus
No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

Along with glossy screens which pick up every fingerprint and massive problems with glare from the windows and office lights.

Mine is matte, doesn't show anything.  :-//

 

Offline eti

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #364 on: December 27, 2022, 05:32:11 pm »
Ah, the tired old trap people never fail to fall into, thinking “the previous generation is old, outdated, rubbish… but quaint”, just because a new generation is “the norm”.

Human foolishness repeats in a loop. They’re both useful, even if you individually cannot perceive why.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #365 on: December 27, 2022, 06:20:12 pm »
Ah, the tired old trap people never fail to fall into, thinking “the previous generation is old, outdated, rubbish… but quaint”, just because a new generation is “the norm”.

Human foolishness repeats in a loop. They’re both useful, even if you individually cannot perceive why.

Yup.

There are famous quotes from George Santayana and Mark Twain about that. Youngsters, if they know them, don't understand them.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 06:21:56 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #366 on: December 27, 2022, 07:11:09 pm »
my Siglent SDS-1104X-E has exactly the same problem with the "multi-function" knob lacking detents. other knobs have detents, why not this one?! this is my single greatest complaint about the scope.
It does have some impact to the way you use it and for a small knob encoder without detents if pays to use right thumb and forefinger and remaining fingers atop the scope to steady the hand.
Here instead of detents a larger knob would offer better control for rapid adjustment. I have in the past swapped in one of the other knobs which worked quite well but use it as stock and show customers that visit the best way to use it.

I hope to have mine apart soon for some PSU tests, specifically finding the DC levels and currents required to operate a stock unit for portability.
While in there I'll get the encoder info and I guess I need pulses/rotation too.
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Offline james_s

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #367 on: December 27, 2022, 09:31:45 pm »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

Along with glossy screens which pick up every fingerprint and massive problems with glare from the windows and office lights.

I absolutely loathe touchscreens and aside from something like a smartphone I won't buy anything that has one. I absolutely hate fingerprints on a screen, it drives me crazy. Most of them also have frequent issues recognizing touches from my fingers, I've never figured out why that is. Even my iphone sometimes doesn't respond.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #368 on: December 27, 2022, 09:40:15 pm »
Classic OT example: try to get a Tesla salesman to show you how to switch on the windscreen demister safely (i.e. without taking your eyes off the road). Last one I asked only managed to switch on the seat heater; previous one had to reconfigure the GUI including dragging heiroglyphs/icons to a taskbar!

That's because you're asking a stupid question.

The correct way to do it is to press the button then say, "demister on"?

After five minutes spent failing to do it with a control, the salesdroid said he could do it with voice control. I said that would be OK with me; he tried, and that's when the seat heater turned on! I didn't bother to ask whether it works just as well while driving and where there's no radio connectivity (think Alexa!)

So, sorry, your suggestion didn't work - and the Tesla failures were worse than you imagined :)

I drove my dad's Tesla for a few weeks after he passed and I ran into the same issue. I loved the way the car drove but I absolutely hated the dashboard interface. Nearly everything is integrated into that big touchscreen, it is absolutely impossible to operate it safely without using the voice control which is another thing I really don't like doing. It tries to automate some things, like the windshield wipers but it's the edge cases where that fails to work reliably where you need to operating those things manually during times of high driver workload when it is least safe to try hunting around on a touchscreen with one eye on the road. I think touchscreens in cars should be illegal and physical controls mandated. My car has physical controls for everything, knobs, switches and sliders that are laid out logically by function and shaped differently. I can operate everything by feel without taking my eyes off the road even for a moment. It is a demonstrably superior interface but it doesn't look trendy and it is expensive to build.

Touchscreens in cars are marketed as high tech but the only real reason for them is they are cheap.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #369 on: December 27, 2022, 09:40:58 pm »
I absolutely loathe touchscreens and aside from something like a smartphone I won't buy anything that has one. I absolutely hate fingerprints on a screen, it drives me crazy.
Never thought I'd be into them much for test equipment until trying a few and you should be aware a touch based UI is required for a mouse capable instrument.

Some instruments respond to touch, front panel controls and a mouse, including the scroll wheel and use of all 3 once you get in tune with it is much much faster than use of any of their individual input mediums.

Sadly until you spend some time with an instrument with this sort of capability you would never know.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #370 on: December 27, 2022, 10:14:43 pm »
Classic OT example: try to get a Tesla salesman to show you how to switch on the windscreen demister safely (i.e. without taking your eyes off the road). Last one I asked only managed to switch on the seat heater; previous one had to reconfigure the GUI including dragging heiroglyphs/icons to a taskbar!

That's because you're asking a stupid question.

The correct way to do it is to press the button then say, "demister on"?

After five minutes spent failing to do it with a control, the salesdroid said he could do it with voice control. I said that would be OK with me; he tried, and that's when the seat heater turned on! I didn't bother to ask whether it works just as well while driving and where there's no radio connectivity (think Alexa!)

So, sorry, your suggestion didn't work - and the Tesla failures were worse than you imagined :)

I drove my dad's Tesla for a few weeks after he passed and I ran into the same issue. I loved the way the car drove but I absolutely hated the dashboard interface. Nearly everything is integrated into that big touchscreen, it is absolutely impossible to operate it safely without using the voice control which is another thing I really don't like doing. It tries to automate some things, like the windshield wipers but it's the edge cases where that fails to work reliably where you need to operating those things manually during times of high driver workload when it is least safe to try hunting around on a touchscreen with one eye on the road. I think touchscreens in cars should be illegal and physical controls mandated. My car has physical controls for everything, knobs, switches and sliders that are laid out logically by function and shaped differently. I can operate everything by feel without taking my eyes off the road even for a moment. It is a demonstrably superior interface but it doesn't look trendy and it is expensive to build.

Touchscreens in cars are marketed as high tech but the only real reason for them is they are cheap.

Practical experience trumps showroom driving :)

In the late 70s a nuke power stations control room had rows of identical dials and levers.

The first thing the operators did was to "decorate" dials and customise levers so that you could tell which one you were holding by touch alone. They knew exactly what they needed and why!

When about to be launched in a glider, I often grasped the airbrake instead of the cable release - a potentially fatal mistake. Fortunately they had very different shapes, so I instantly corrected the mistake.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #371 on: December 27, 2022, 10:27:19 pm »
Along with glossy screens which pick up every fingerprint and massive problems with glare from the windows and office lights.
You'd be thinking of an Agilent or Tek scope there.  My $1000 Siglent uses a nice matte finish on the screen. :-+
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline Bud

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #372 on: December 27, 2022, 11:19:39 pm »
. I loved the way the car drove but I absolutely hated the dashboard interface. Nearly everything is integrated into that big touchscreen, it is absolutely impossible to operate it safely without using the voice control.
A contractor came the other day and we got in his Tesla to discuss things. Radio was playing loud and I watched with amusement him pushing the screen going into menus and sub-menus to just freaking reduce the audio volume down  :-DD
Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha !!  :-DD
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Online nctnico

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #373 on: December 27, 2022, 11:34:42 pm »
Excessive menu depth has been a problem with modern DSOs, with very few exceptions, since they have existed.  That problem is not going away.

No, but big touch screens with pictures are on the way. The twisty knob interface will be a thing of the past.

Along with glossy screens which pick up every fingerprint and massive problems with glare from the windows and office lights.
That is much less of a problem than you'd think. Speaking from experience here...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline baldurn

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #374 on: December 28, 2022, 12:00:33 am »
. I loved the way the car drove but I absolutely hated the dashboard interface. Nearly everything is integrated into that big touchscreen, it is absolutely impossible to operate it safely without using the voice control.
A contractor came the other day and we got in his Tesla to discuss things. Radio was playing loud and I watched with amusement him pushing the screen going into menus and sub-menus to just freaking reduce the audio volume down  :-DD
Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha !!  :-DD

There is a physical volume control on the steering wheel. It can also mute. There is a physical button at the end of the left stalk to activate the wipers. The only driving related task on the touchscreen is adjusting the wiper speed, but this is always in the lower left corner and can be brought up by pressing the physical button at the end of the left stalk. Alternatively you can use voice command to adjust the wiper speed, which contrary to what some non owners claim here, actually does work.

People love to talk shit but maybe you should just know your car before driving?
 


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