Author Topic: True analog scopes  (Read 50518 times)

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Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #75 on: December 14, 2022, 07:23:55 pm »
My Siglent will lock up sometimes due to bugs and must be repowered, often losing several precisely set parameters, no analog scope will, can, fall victim to that.

If you said so earlier I missed it, but what model Siglent are you referring to?

Its an SDS1204X-E.
FW right up to date ?
Later OS upgrade installed too ?

Hacked or genuine 200 MHz unit ? If hacked what method used ?
Have you installed any Custom Defaults ?

Last Self Cal ?

These are a quite mature product now and if running latest firmware don't give problems.

Can you list the steps/procedure to reliably make it hang ?
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Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #76 on: December 14, 2022, 07:36:48 pm »
i can see a few places where a CRT/analog oscilloscope is a preferable solution:

1. where there are tight cost and resource constraints. ie, poor people who can only afford a 2nd hand CRT scope, perhaps living in a place where new equipment is not available. think of the slums in places like india.

2. in locations where radiation hardening is necessary. for instance, off-planet. there may be such situations where semiconductors can not be depended upon, and fully-valved equipment needs to be used.

3. in situations where the displayed trace is safety-critical, and a digital solution introduces the possibility of failure modes that are not acceptable. for instance, displaying the sine wave output from a generation plant, where a DSO could fail with a frozen display. basically a CRT/analog oscilloscope provides an extremely simply display where any failure within the instrument is guaranteed to remove the trace on the screen; a DSO can lock up with a 'good' image on the display even if there is a 'bad' input signal.

the above are all extreme examples, but non-the-less could still exist in the real world.

4. it is also important that  we preserve "old technology" so that if some global mishap knocks back society, we can pick up at a level of technology that is still achievable within any 'new world order' without having to go back to the stone age. for instance, if a massive solar flare knocked out all of our existing semiconductor electronics infrastructure, it would be nice for human society to be able to pick up at the level of 1920's valve technology and rebuild from there.

cheers,
rob   :-)
Walk into any hospital and look at the ECG's in use, remember these are just a specialised oscilloscope with some counting features added and they're all modern compact LCD displays just like the modern DSO.

Here in NZ a new Asian brand mindray is taking the health industry by storm with their range of ECG's all small, light and compact. I had the pleasure to be connected to several of these new products while on a short vacation in the NZ Health system a few months back.
One of their flasier models:
https://www.mindray.com/en/products/patient-monitoring/continuous-patient-monitoring/benevision-n22-n19
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Offline MarkL

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #77 on: December 14, 2022, 08:26:37 pm »
https://www.tek.com/en/datasheet/ada400a-differential-preamplifier-datasheet

Nice, but quite pricey...
If you don't mind something a little more clunky than a boxy probe, the Tek AM502 module is similar in functionality and is more configurable. Certainly cheaper, even including the TM50x mainframe.

  https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/AM502
 

Offline Sherlock HolmesTopic starter

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #78 on: December 14, 2022, 08:54:29 pm »
My Siglent will lock up sometimes due to bugs and must be repowered, often losing several precisely set parameters, no analog scope will, can, fall victim to that.

If you said so earlier I missed it, but what model Siglent are you referring to?

Its an SDS1204X-E.
FW right up to date ?
Later OS upgrade installed too ?

Hacked or genuine 200 MHz unit ? If hacked what method used ?
Have you installed any Custom Defaults ?

Last Self Cal ?

These are a quite mature product now and if running latest firmware don't give problems.

Can you list the steps/procedure to reliably make it hang ?

I'd need to check, it certainly isn't hacked, I bought the license for the logic analyzer update a few months ago, from Siglent US. The problem arises when using that digital mode, looking at SPI and adjusting the data display from hex/binary etc, happened several times a few months ago.
“When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.” ~ Arthur Conan Doyle, The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes
 

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2022, 10:03:22 pm »
My Siglent will lock up sometimes due to bugs and must be repowered, often losing several precisely set parameters, no analog scope will, can, fall victim to that.

If you said so earlier I missed it, but what model Siglent are you referring to?

Its an SDS1204X-E.
FW right up to date ?
Later OS upgrade installed too ?

Hacked or genuine 200 MHz unit ? If hacked what method used ?
Have you installed any Custom Defaults ?

Last Self Cal ?

These are a quite mature product now and if running latest firmware don't give problems.

Can you list the steps/procedure to reliably make it hang ?

I'd need to check, it certainly isn't hacked, I bought the license for the logic analyzer update a few months ago, from Siglent US. The problem arises when using that digital mode, looking at SPI and adjusting the data display from hex/binary etc, happened several times a few months ago.
You can get all the updates here:
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?ProId=12
You need to get up to 37R9 and 8.3 OS and while you're there check your SLA1016 has the latest version installed too.
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Offline james_s

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2022, 10:50:19 pm »
My thought would have been that it's defective rather than buggy. It's also possible that some data somewhere got corrupted somehow, is there a way to perform a full factory reset on it?
 

Online tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #81 on: December 14, 2022, 11:04:49 pm »
My thought would have been that it's defective rather than buggy. It's also possible that some data somewhere got corrupted somehow, is there a way to perform a full factory reset on it?
Trouble is James, there are far to many box shufflers in this industry that send stuff out the door without even checking its firmware is latest.....Siglent NA too !
They stock their Amazon shop with unchecked products too which exposes customers to older product incarnations without the latest updates.
Many many around the world hate any device that 'phones' home to install updates but for product lines still in active development how do you get around this issue ?

We chose to check every instrument bypassing any DOA issues and updating firmware and checking and setting probes which serves as a proper check on their functionality too. Yes we find dud Siglent probes on occasion.

Resellers can take 2 paths, provide the best possible customers first experience and also know the instrument will operate as expected or be absolute experts in managing the fastest flow of stock into the marketplace.

Pick your poison.
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Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #82 on: December 15, 2022, 06:50:55 am »
I admit that my 2235 sees a whole lot less use than it used to.

That said, there are some things that the classic Tek analog scopes do better than modern digital scopes.

The biggest thing is that most modern digital scopes, in their quest to do everything under the sun, have become extremely complicated, and their UI is often a pain in the backside. It's great to be able to do really advanced things, but the really advanced stuff is 5% of my time using a scope, and if I just need to trace a sine wave through a 500 kHz bandwidth amplifier, the less I have to mess with things, the better.

Furthermore... on an analog scope, you can immediately tell exactly how it is configured without touching it. This is not the case with digital scopes, and this is a real pain - I find that I make far more bonehead measurement errors with really modern scopes than I do with those from yesteryear.

I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

Also, I'm profoundly lazy. Do you seriously think that I'm going to mess around with a software utility or a USB stick every time I want to save a scope image? Unless this is going in a formal report (or has intellectual property issues) I'm going to snap a picture with my phone. Incidentally, CRTs tend to photograph really well.

And finally, I don't have to put a brick of lead behind my analog scope to stop it from sliding across the bench when I try to connect a probe to it.


So aside from the satisfaction of using a good analog oscilloscope (the appearance of the traces on a CRT, the tactile feel of switches, etc), the main advantage they still hold has more to do with the user interface on a lot of modern scopes.
 
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Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #83 on: December 15, 2022, 07:09:52 am »
Oh, and I believe someone earlier in this thread asked about the fastest analog scope.

To my knowledge, the fastest analog scope was a modified version of the Tektronix 519 that achieved a 3 GHz bandwidth. That said, the 519 (in all iterations) is a very bizarre scope, and not a terribly useful one.

It was a very clever way to achieve insane bandwidths in the 1960s, but it made for a scope with a low vertical sensitivity, tiny viewing area, and a wacky 125 ohm input impedance.

I don't know if this is true, but what I was told is that Tek developed the 519 specifically for LANL and LLNL, and that they accounted for most of the 519s sold.


 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #84 on: December 15, 2022, 09:24:32 am »
I admit that my 2235 sees a whole lot less use than it used to.

That said, there are some things that the classic Tek analog scopes do better than modern digital scopes.

The biggest thing is that most modern digital scopes, in their quest to do everything under the sun, have become extremely complicated, and their UI is often a pain in the backside. It's great to be able to do really advanced things, but the really advanced stuff is 5% of my time using a scope, and if I just need to trace a sine wave through a 500 kHz bandwidth amplifier, the less I have to mess with things, the better.

Furthermore... on an analog scope, you can immediately tell exactly how it is configured without touching it. This is not the case with digital scopes, and this is a real pain - I find that I make far more bonehead measurement errors with really modern scopes than I do with those from yesteryear.

I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

Also, I'm profoundly lazy. Do you seriously think that I'm going to mess around with a software utility or a USB stick every time I want to save a scope image? Unless this is going in a formal report (or has intellectual property issues) I'm going to snap a picture with my phone. Incidentally, CRTs tend to photograph really well.

And finally, I don't have to put a brick of lead behind my analog scope to stop it from sliding across the bench when I try to connect a probe to it.


So aside from the satisfaction of using a good analog oscilloscope (the appearance of the traces on a CRT, the tactile feel of switches, etc), the main advantage they still hold has more to do with the user interface on a lot of modern scopes.

All remarkably sane points that mirror my experience and opinion.

My principal objection is to people that say don't consider buying an analogue scope (especially if they have financial interest in digitising scopes!). A working analogue scope is an extremely useful tool that you can learn to use quickly and easily. If it is less expensive than a new digitising scope, then there is more money available for other necessities, e.g. the right type of probe for the measurement being made.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #85 on: December 15, 2022, 09:59:48 am »
I admit that my 2235 sees a whole lot less use than it used to.

That said, there are some things that the classic Tek analog scopes do better than modern digital scopes.

The biggest thing is that most modern digital scopes, in their quest to do everything under the sun, have become extremely complicated, and their UI is often a pain in the backside. It's great to be able to do really advanced things, but the really advanced stuff is 5% of my time using a scope, and if I just need to trace a sine wave through a 500 kHz bandwidth amplifier, the less I have to mess with things, the better.

Furthermore... on an analog scope, you can immediately tell exactly how it is configured without touching it. This is not the case with digital scopes, and this is a real pain - I find that I make far more bonehead measurement errors with really modern scopes than I do with those from yesteryear.

I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

Also, I'm profoundly lazy. Do you seriously think that I'm going to mess around with a software utility or a USB stick every time I want to save a scope image? Unless this is going in a formal report (or has intellectual property issues) I'm going to snap a picture with my phone. Incidentally, CRTs tend to photograph really well.

And finally, I don't have to put a brick of lead behind my analog scope to stop it from sliding across the bench when I try to connect a probe to it.


So aside from the satisfaction of using a good analog oscilloscope (the appearance of the traces on a CRT, the tactile feel of switches, etc), the main advantage they still hold has more to do with the user interface on a lot of modern scopes.

All remarkably sane points that mirror my experience and opinion.

My principal objection is to people that say don't consider buying an analogue scope (especially if they have financial interest in digitising scopes!). A working analogue scope is an extremely useful tool that you can learn to use quickly and easily. If it is less expensive than a new digitising scope, then there is more money available for other necessities, e.g. the right type of probe for the measurement being made.

You live in the past. Your advice stood and was good advice 10-15 years ago.
There are very few good, still working, old CRT scopes available at affordable prices.
Those being sold now are sold at "vintage" "legendary" prices. You might get lucky occasionally in some countries (USA, UK, maybe France or Germany). Those few that are in perfect condition are being kept by people like you and treasured.

300€ buys you solid, brand new (with warranty) modern digital scope that does everything needed today.
Those that (by choice) like dealing with outdated technology, both in choice of instruments and things you design and repair should stick with whatever they think is appropriate..

For 300€ you cannot buy good working old CRT Tek scope, even 20 MHz one...
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #86 on: December 15, 2022, 10:24:12 am »
I admit that my 2235 sees a whole lot less use than it used to.

That said, there are some things that the classic Tek analog scopes do better than modern digital scopes.

The biggest thing is that most modern digital scopes, in their quest to do everything under the sun, have become extremely complicated, and their UI is often a pain in the backside. It's great to be able to do really advanced things, but the really advanced stuff is 5% of my time using a scope, and if I just need to trace a sine wave through a 500 kHz bandwidth amplifier, the less I have to mess with things, the better.

Furthermore... on an analog scope, you can immediately tell exactly how it is configured without touching it. This is not the case with digital scopes, and this is a real pain - I find that I make far more bonehead measurement errors with really modern scopes than I do with those from yesteryear.

I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

Also, I'm profoundly lazy. Do you seriously think that I'm going to mess around with a software utility or a USB stick every time I want to save a scope image? Unless this is going in a formal report (or has intellectual property issues) I'm going to snap a picture with my phone. Incidentally, CRTs tend to photograph really well.

And finally, I don't have to put a brick of lead behind my analog scope to stop it from sliding across the bench when I try to connect a probe to it.


So aside from the satisfaction of using a good analog oscilloscope (the appearance of the traces on a CRT, the tactile feel of switches, etc), the main advantage they still hold has more to do with the user interface on a lot of modern scopes.

All remarkably sane points that mirror my experience and opinion.

My principal objection is to people that say don't consider buying an analogue scope (especially if they have financial interest in digitising scopes!). A working analogue scope is an extremely useful tool that you can learn to use quickly and easily. If it is less expensive than a new digitising scope, then there is more money available for other necessities, e.g. the right type of probe for the measurement being made.

You live in the past. Your advice stood and was good advice 10-15 years ago.
There are very few good, still working, old CRT scopes available at affordable prices.
Those being sold now are sold at "vintage" "legendary" prices. You might get lucky occasionally in some countries (USA, UK, maybe France or Germany). Those few that are in perfect condition are being kept by people like you and treasured.

300€ buys you solid, brand new (with warranty) modern digital scope that does everything needed today.
Those that (by choice) like dealing with outdated technology, both in choice of instruments and things you design and repair should stick with whatever they think is appropriate..

For 300€ you cannot buy good working old CRT Tek scope, even 20 MHz one...

Look harder; they are still around.

The rule-of-thumb-price is still £$1/MHz. I can see half a dozen on fleabay/gumtree all displaying sensible traces (all in the UK), all with asking prices in the £40-80 range. Brands are Philips, Gould, Telequipment, even HP.

Even a 20MHz scope is better than none, and I'd rather pay £20 than £300, since I would also have money for probes (inc HV differential) bench PSUs, bench meters etc.

There are of course scopes with ridiculous asking prices. Basing an argument on ridiculous prices is as ridiculous as the prices themselves.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:29:06 am by tggzzz »
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Online 2N3055

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #87 on: December 15, 2022, 11:38:22 am »

Look harder; they are still around.

The rule-of-thumb-price is still £$1/MHz. I can see half a dozen on fleabay/gumtree all displaying sensible traces (all in the UK), all with asking prices in the £40-80 range. Brands are Philips, Gould, Telequipment, even HP.

Even a 20MHz scope is better than none, and I'd rather pay £20 than £300, since I would also have money for probes (inc HV differential) bench PSUs, bench meters etc.

There are of course scopes with ridiculous asking prices. Basing an argument on ridiculous prices is as ridiculous as the prices themselves.

Yeah all of those are shooting in the dark.. More crap than good ones. And as I said, if I buy from UK or USA, I pay shipping on a 20 kg boat anchor that comes broken from shipping, and then customs and VAT on the combined sum....
Even 20 GBP becomes 150€ for 40 year old crap in unknown state, brittle plastic and bent frame from shipping. Not really a "great deal".

At the same time I can buy something brand new with warranty that works great, and is better than any of that crap...

That is why I said : Tektronix 2465 in NOS state would be worth having. And would require king's ransom...

I understand that you can go to local HAM swap meet and sometimes stumble on something decent for 20 quids.... And no other costs.. Great for you. In most of other countries it is not so. Unfortunately so. I wish you were right. But it is not.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 03:44:22 pm by 2N3055 »
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Online TimFox

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #88 on: December 15, 2022, 02:54:42 pm »
To the last half-dozen posts:
Owning both types of 'scope, my general rule is
--When I don't know what's wrong or going on, use the analog CRO.
--When I do know what's happening, but need to measure it, use the DSO.
 

Offline mawyatt

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #89 on: December 15, 2022, 03:14:44 pm »
We had to purchase 4 Tek scopes to get two in actual working order, one literally blew up while just warming up (infamous RIFA cap). So we now have 2 beautiful Tek 2465 analog scopes that have been restored with countless hours for power supply recapping, troubleshooting, cleaning and main PCBs recapping. One required an extremely delicate ceramic hybrid input attenuator modules repair & rebuild, another required troubleshooting the defective scope cal and all required extensive cleaning & recapping. So 100s of hours invested in studying, troubleshooting and restoring each 2465 and ~$100 in replacement caps and components.

Was this fun? You bet!! Would one do this if they didn't enjoy restoring these old relics, and needed a working scope right away that they could rely on for income? Probably not!!

As far as analog vs digital scope discussion, the 2465s hardly ever get used and only for an occasional revisit to past, fun to play with but we never utilize them for any serious work anymore.

Why? Because the modern DSO has replaced almost every measurement need we've encountered, then some we didn't even think about!! Of course one must have the skill and knowledge to use such, and they do require a "learning curve" just like any new instrument that's to be used to perfection.

We've used just about every analog scope Tek has made over the past 60+ years, and a few from HP, B&K, Heathkit, Iwatsu and others, and are an old engrained analog type that wasn't fond of DSOs in our lab back before retiring, altho didn't get in the labs much then (another story).

After realizing our narrow minded short-comes, we decided to acquire a DSO and "Spend the necessary time without prejudice to learn this new to us instrument". Only regret is we should have realized the benefits of these DSOs a decade earlier  ???

Of course YMMY!!

Best,
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 03:19:07 pm by mawyatt »
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Online BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2022, 03:43:38 pm »
My Tek 465 works perfectly.  It gets used frequently as I just like dealing with quality.  If I don't need a DSO's "features" or don't need bandwidth in excess of 100MHz, I use the Tek.  It's from a time where quality was paramount.  Tek scopes to day can't hold a candle to it's beautiful, solid build, let alone mi Siglents.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #91 on: December 15, 2022, 04:08:49 pm »
I'm skeptical that anyone is actually producing new analog scopes anymore.

Just go on digikey (or whatever) and filter the oscilloscopes by "CRT"
 

Online TimFox

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #92 on: December 15, 2022, 04:48:19 pm »
I did that search on DigiKey, specifying "active" instead of "obsolete", and it returned only one B&K Precision 2120C 30 MHz unit, lead time 10 weeks.
 

Offline switchabl

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #93 on: December 15, 2022, 05:02:16 pm »
I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

I have an Agilent 2000X for that. As a DSO, it is now somewhat outdated (in particular it has pretty limited memory). But it is an amazing CRT emulator. >:D It responds instantly and basically "just works" with minimal fiddling. I still have a nice analog Tektronix somewhere but I'm keeping it purely for the nostalgia (along with a couple of Hamegs). I can't think of anything that would make me actually want to use it again for real.

I have no love for the TDS220 though. Yes, in many ways it was quite revolutionary in its day (form factor, 1GS/s at low price point). But it was slow and had an awful screen without intensity grading. It was also ubiquitous (particularly in the education sector) and frankly, it gave DSOs a bad name.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #94 on: December 15, 2022, 05:04:50 pm »
I did that search on DigiKey, specifying "active" instead of "obsolete", and it returned only one B&K Precision 2120C 30 MHz unit, lead time 10 weeks.

Aliexpress has a few, you can even get a round-screen one for real retro effect:

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Analog-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-price-J2459_60008202178.html

There's also some scary-expensive ones:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004032050364.html
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 05:07:50 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #95 on: December 15, 2022, 05:22:01 pm »
I did that search on DigiKey, specifying "active" instead of "obsolete", and it returned only one B&K Precision 2120C 30 MHz unit, lead time 10 weeks.
Aliexpress has a few, you can even get a round-screen one for real retro effect:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Analog-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-price-J2459_60008202178.html
did you look what kind of joke is that? BNC input, peculiar control knobs and marking, 2MHz? forget uV/div, forget cursors for noise measurement, and forget anything mentioned here about whats good in CRO.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #96 on: December 15, 2022, 05:22:18 pm »
did you look what kind of joke is that? (the retro one) BNC input, peculiar control knobs and marking, 2MHz? forget uV/div, forget cursors for noise measurement, and forget anything mentioned here about whats good in CRO. even on the more expensive unit you linked.. try something better...

The assertion was "I'm skeptical that anyone is actually producing new analog scopes anymore. "  :-//

Some people obviously are.
 

Offline JPortici

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #97 on: December 15, 2022, 06:10:58 pm »
One good use for analog scopes: movie prop, they look so much better as a prop than digital scopes.
Except in medical dramas, in those the higher tech the better
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #98 on: December 15, 2022, 06:15:34 pm »
One good use for analog scopes: movie prop, they look so much better as a prop than digital scopes.
Except in medical dramas, in those the higher tech the better

Or cartoons ...

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #99 on: December 15, 2022, 06:29:55 pm »

Look harder; they are still around.

The rule-of-thumb-price is still £$1/MHz. I can see half a dozen on fleabay/gumtree all displaying sensible traces (all in the UK), all with asking prices in the £40-80 range. Brands are Philips, Gould, Telequipment, even HP.

Even a 20MHz scope is better than none, and I'd rather pay £20 than £300, since I would also have money for probes (inc HV differential) bench PSUs, bench meters etc.

There are of course scopes with ridiculous asking prices. Basing an argument on ridiculous prices is as ridiculous as the prices themselves.

Yeah all of those are shooting in the dark.. More crap than good ones. And as I said, if I buy from UK or USA, I pay shipping on a 20 kg boat anchor that comes broken from shipping, and then customs and VAT on the combined sum....
Even 20 GBP becomes 150€ for 40 year old crap in unknown state, brittle plastic and bent frame from shipping. Not really a "great deal".

At the same time I can buy something brand new with warranty that works great, and is better than any of that crap...

That is why I said : Tektronix 2465 in NOS state would be worth having. And would require king's ransom...

I understand that you can go to local HAM swap meet and sometimes stumble on something decent for 20 quids.... And no other costs.. Great for you. In most of other countries it is not so. Unfortunately so. I wish you were right. But it is not.

And if you were in Antartica, as some denizens of this forum claim, shipping would be even more expensive. So what?! Ditto the more realistic example of Brazil.

Don't presume the conditions in Croatia are the same anywhere else. Don't presume the choices and appropriate decisions are the same.

Note that, unlike you, I qualified my statements, viz "in the UK".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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