Author Topic: True analog scopes  (Read 51365 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #100 on: December 15, 2022, 06:39:05 pm »
We had to purchase 4 Tek scopes to get two in actual working order, one literally blew up while just warming up (infamous RIFA cap). So we now have 2 beautiful Tek 2465 analog scopes that have been restored with countless hours for power supply recapping, troubleshooting, cleaning and main PCBs recapping. One required an extremely delicate ceramic hybrid input attenuator modules repair & rebuild, another required troubleshooting the defective scope cal and all required extensive cleaning & recapping. So 100s of hours invested in studying, troubleshooting and restoring each 2465 and ~$100 in replacement caps and components.

Was this fun? You bet!! Would one do this if they didn't enjoy restoring these old relics, and needed a working scope right away that they could rely on for income? Probably not!!

As far as analog vs digital scope discussion, the 2465s hardly ever get used and only for an occasional revisit to past, fun to play with but we never utilize them for any serious work anymore.

Why? Because the modern DSO has replaced almost every measurement need we've encountered, then some we didn't even think about!! Of course one must have the skill and knowledge to use such, and they do require a "learning curve" just like any new instrument that's to be used to perfection.

We've used just about every analog scope Tek has made over the past 60+ years, and a few from HP, B&K, Heathkit, Iwatsu and others, and are an old engrained analog type that wasn't fond of DSOs in our lab back before retiring, altho didn't get in the labs much then (another story).

After realizing our narrow minded short-comes, we decided to acquire a DSO and "Spend the necessary time without prejudice to learn this new to us instrument". Only regret is we should have realized the benefits of these DSOs a decade earlier  ???

Of course YMMY!!

Best,

...all sensible points!

A modern medium-to-high end digitising scope really is a miracle of technological advance. But that is far less clear for a low-end or decade old digitising scope.

Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

I haven't tested whether those people would also like a Tesla "full driving (beta)" car for similar reasons. I suspect so :(
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #101 on: December 15, 2022, 06:42:40 pm »
Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

Micsigs have a mode where they continuously adjust the horizontal/vertical scale to track the input signal - no need to press a button!  :)

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #102 on: December 15, 2022, 06:48:23 pm »

Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

I haven't tested whether those people would also like a Tesla "full driving (beta)" car for similar reasons. I suspect so :(

 :-DD :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Online 2N3055

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #103 on: December 15, 2022, 07:08:23 pm »

And if you were in Antartica, as some denizens of this forum claim, shipping would be even more expensive. So what?! Ditto the more realistic example of Brazil.
:-//
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Online bdunham7

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #104 on: December 15, 2022, 07:22:01 pm »
For 300€ you cannot buy good working old CRT Tek scope, even 20 MHz one...

To be fair, this may be true for you, but isn't the same everywhere.  Of course local conditions will make a difference in these sort of things.  In the past few years I've sold some fairly nice scopes with (unofficial) calibration and warranty for under $300.  I paid $29 each for a Tek 2445 and a Kikusui COS5100 and both were completely in working order.  The deals aren't quite that good these days, but if I were selling either of those today I would not expect over $300.  And they're both actually pretty good scopes. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #105 on: December 15, 2022, 07:42:25 pm »

And if you were in Antartica, as some denizens of this forum claim, shipping would be even more expensive. So what?! Ditto the more realistic example of Brazil.
:-//

From that we can infer you didn't bother to read the part of my post that you snipped. Unimpressive.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #106 on: December 15, 2022, 08:02:13 pm »
One good use for analog scopes: movie prop, they look so much better as a prop than digital scopes.
Except in medical dramas, in those the higher tech the better
Of course, directors and set techs have no idea of how to use any scope let alone a DSO.  ::)

Yet if the chap they hired one from spends a minute getting it to do something rather than be a wall hanging it can become near the centerpiece of the shot:

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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #107 on: December 15, 2022, 08:41:43 pm »
i dont mind movie prop, but i wonder when human can travel in hyperspace, they still use CRO to find and lock radio frequency, go watch Star Wars Rogue One if you dont believe me.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #108 on: December 15, 2022, 08:57:49 pm »

And if you were in Antartica, as some denizens of this forum claim, shipping would be even more expensive. So what?! Ditto the more realistic example of Brazil.
:-//

From that we can infer you didn't bother to read the part of my post that you snipped. Unimpressive.

I didn't try to impress you. Impressing anonymous people in faraway lands holds very little value to me.
No, I simply did not understand what you wrote...  What "more realistic example of Brazil" are you referring to... I don't see any example. And Antarctica comment plays in my favour not yours..  Hence confusion on my side..
And I did say where my statements did not apply. And said that I agree in UK is as you say. And that, exactly as you, I said that experience in your country is no indicator whatsoever of other countries. So, again, confusion. We basically agree in principle, it is not the same in every country. This discussion has happened many times before. People from many countries across globe said same as I did: it is not so easy..

To make sure , I'm NOT against CRT scopes or people that like them. I also think there are many types of work where they are good enough to do the job. And if you like them and can get a good one for a good price and you know the limitations, go for it by all means. If you have a good one, don't throw it away. These are nice machines that are still useful... And if they are enough for you that is awesome..

But to a question by OP: no, no good CRT scopes are still being produced and no there is no application where CRT scope would be better (in sense : is there a job in electronics that cannot be done with DSO). And yes there are  literally dozens of types of work that could not be done with CRT scopes, but are easily done with a DSO...

There is a reason they are not being made anymore. Nobody needs them for real work...DSOs are more useful. And apparently not that hard to learn, as evidenced by God knows of how many millions of DSO users...

For hobby users, they do as they please. It doesn't have to be best or most rational thing.

But to a question on a car forum "What is a good, simple, reliable car that you recommend me to buy?" best answer is not "WV Beetle".. Even if there could be few around that are being kept in working condition and are registered and driving..
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Online TimFox

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #109 on: December 15, 2022, 09:13:22 pm »
One good use for analog scopes: movie prop, they look so much better as a prop than digital scopes.
Except in medical dramas, in those the higher tech the better

An example of when a CRT CRO was a necessary prop for a movie plot: in "Journey to the Far Side of the Sun" (aka "Doppelgänger") from 1969, I immediately knew something was amiss when the Tektronix 541 oscilloscope had its CRT in the upper right corner of the panel.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064519/

 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #110 on: December 15, 2022, 11:43:04 pm »
I really like my Siglent scope, and I really like the Tek scopes at work - both the TDS3054s and the new ones (I don't remember the model number) we've gotten recently. That said, I still reach for my 54622A and my Tek 2235 more often than I reach for my newer, higher-performance scopes, and this is because for a good portion of what I do, the 54622A is fast enough, and it is far less likely to annoy me than anything more recent. I actually like the TDS220 series for this reason - it's pretty usable.

I have an Agilent 2000X for that. As a DSO, it is now somewhat outdated (in particular it has pretty limited memory). But it is an amazing CRT emulator. >:D It responds instantly and basically "just works" with minimal fiddling. I still have a nice analog Tektronix somewhere but I'm keeping it purely for the nostalgia (along with a couple of Hamegs). I can't think of anything that would make me actually want to use it again for real.

I have no love for the TDS220 though. Yes, in many ways it was quite revolutionary in its day (form factor, 1GS/s at low price point). But it was slow and had an awful screen without intensity grading. It was also ubiquitous (particularly in the education sector) and frankly, it gave DSOs a bad name.

I think they had "a bad name" well before the poor old "Tedious 220".
HP & Tek went "boots & all" into the early DSOs, well before they were usable in anything but "niche" applications, & as I recounted earlier, would try to sell them to people who needed consistent performance, which they were unable to offer.

They were useless at long time/div settings, unless you were looking at sinewaves, so were regarded with suspicion by many of us, who had been "digital friendly" before encountering them.

On top of that, they were all CRT devices, anyway, so either used normal sized CRO style tubes with similar sized display to their analogue counterparts, or TV style tubes with electromagnetic scanning.

At least, by the time the TDS 210 & 220 came along, some of those shortcomings had been addressed.
How many, I don't know, as I have never played with one, but the very small memory size, militates against usability for, say, analogue video.

If I could pick up a TDS220 for, say, $A150.00, I would get one, just for fun, but prices for them on ebay are ridiculous.
 

Offline baldurn

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #111 on: December 15, 2022, 11:47:05 pm »

Yet if the chap they hired one from spends a minute getting it to do something rather than be a wall hanging it can become near the centerpiece of the shot:

Good one. Notice how the actor is _not_ touching the oscilloscope. He appears to be fiddling with a power supply not connected to anything. Can't be trusted not to ruin anything more advanced  :-DD
 

Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #112 on: December 16, 2022, 12:09:49 am »

Yet if the chap they hired one from spends a minute getting it to do something rather than be a wall hanging it can become near the centerpiece of the shot:

Good one. Notice how the actor is _not_ touching the oscilloscope. He appears to be fiddling with a power supply not connected to anything. Can't be trusted not to ruin anything more advanced  :-DD
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All I got was a ker ching $, thank you very much !
My PSU, scope, AWG, AVO and some component storage props and other stuff too.
Came home with a busted HP1740 as a perk and really can't be stuffed fixing the darn thing as even a cheap DSO will kick it in the arse.
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #113 on: December 16, 2022, 12:37:58 am »
I did that search on DigiKey, specifying "active" instead of "obsolete", and it returned only one B&K Precision 2120C 30 MHz unit, lead time 10 weeks.
Aliexpress has a few, you can even get a round-screen one for real retro effect:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Analog-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-oscilloscope-price-J2459_60008202178.html
did you look what kind of joke is that? BNC input, peculiar control knobs and marking, 2MHz? forget uV/div, forget cursors for noise measurement, and forget anything mentioned here about whats good in CRO.

It is a seriously weird device.

At first sight, it looks like my little "Digitech" thing, but that is a 10MHz device, with BNC inputs, uV/div & usec/div switches, switchable AC/DC coupling, X/Y inputs, Auto, Normal, Line (Mains freq), & Analog video H & V Triggering.
"Cursors"? ----they were pretty rare on Analogue 'scopes, apart from HP, Tek, & their direct competitors back in the day.

Mine has the same peculiar knobs (they fall off after a while), but knobs can be replaced.

A bit more serious is that the BNCs have minimal thread length & tend to come unscrewed but are replaceable with better ones.
My Digitech had a "EHT" supply failure, but the replacement of one transistor from my junkbox restored it.

Overall, the "proper one" is a usable, if basic 'scope, which is certainly more functional than some of the silly little so-called "DSOs" appearing on ebay for less than $A100.00.

That said, why anyone would "dumb down" an already pretty basic device is beyond me!

PS--Did I mention it is tiny? (About the same package size as a hp 410C, but a little skinnier, & slightly taller).

I described it once on this forum as looking like something "Cabbage Patch" dolls would use! ;D
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #114 on: December 16, 2022, 12:44:15 am »
Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

Micsigs have a mode where they continuously adjust the horizontal/vertical scale to track the input signal - no need to press a button!  :)

It is hard to think of a more annoying feature!
 
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Offline BillyO

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #115 on: December 16, 2022, 01:26:46 am »
BNC input  ..

BNC input?  They don' need no stinkin' BNC input!
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #116 on: December 16, 2022, 02:15:50 am »
Rebonjour,

Having used Lecroy, TEK and Yokogawa digitals since 1993, they are great in some uses like transient capture, storage or saving the images.

But NONE can do a real X-Y  Lissajous well or easily, (used in Audio and time measurements among other applications)


Many DSO lack the Analog  CH1-CH2 or CH 2 INV function to get a differential  view.
Finally the lowest sesnitivity is nowhere as good as a fine analog TEK plugin for 7000.


Regarding cost of analog scopes, my finds in the last year...Two  Hameg German design, made in France,1980s


HM103, EU 5 at Paris street sale...works fine 1 ch 10 MHz!

HM204 EU 25 another street sale 20 MHz 2 ch
Includes a handy Lissajous component curve tester!
Perfect for 99% of basic audio and museum troubleshooting and tests, in a small apartment lab.

Also  TEK 475, fixed up the HV mult, bottom feet are crumbling, still works!

VIVE L'ANALOGIQUE!

bon soiree!

Jon



« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 04:36:47 am by jonpaul »
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Offline H713

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #117 on: December 16, 2022, 04:39:13 am »
Yes, in some parts of the world, getting a "working CRT scope" is hard. Has it ever been easy? I don't have an answer for that, but doubtful.

In the US (which, incidentally, is a fairly significant number of people!), that is far from the case. Over the past two or three years, I've picked up half a dozen analog scopes, all at least 100 MHz (mostly Tektronix, Kenwood, etc) for about $50 each - and I've passed up a whole lot more that I didn't want to deal with. None were listed as working, but none of them (except the 454A that I way overpaid for) had any significant issues. This stuff still turns up at surplus auctions and hamfests. Most universities still have piles of these things sitting in labs and storage rooms, and they come available every time their is a cleaning operation. There are a lot of Tektronix 2215s and 2235s kicking around - they sold an insane number of these things.

Keep in mind, I live in southern Wisconsin, where most storage facilities are filled with rotting taxidermy, dead snowmobiles and 3000-year-old C-scows. In other parts of the country, old test equipment is significantly more prevalent.

Again, this stuff was pretty reliable. The reason that there are so many dead ones on eBay is that the same dead scopes keep getting resold.

If I could only have one scope? Certainly digital, and unless you're given an analog one for free, your first scope should probably be a digital scope at this point, simply because it can do more. But once you have that, a good analog scope is still rather nice to have around.

A last worthwhile point I'll make is this:
Fast digital scopes are marvel of signal processing, fast analog scopes are a marvel of physics.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 04:46:30 am by H713 »
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #118 on: December 16, 2022, 04:55:14 am »
Many DSO lack the Analog  CH1-CH2 or CH 2 INV function to get a differential  view.
Really you have no idea what features are in the modern DSO, none at all !
Minus is a very common Math function and Invert is a channel menu feature both of which are top level menu items in their respective places.........NOT front panel buttons or switches !
Further these 2 functions (Minus Math and Invert) appear in channel tabs plain as day so not to divert the eye away from where the action is really happening......on the display !

Is it because of EASL or are datasheets and manuals difficult for you to understand ?

Like I mentioned before you could really benefit from getting a modern DSO to learn what they really can do instead of some decades old blinkered incorrect opinion.



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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #119 on: December 16, 2022, 05:45:14 am »
BNC input  ..
BNC input?  They don' need no stinkin' BNC input!
i meant banana jack. how could i made such mistake? :palm:

Many DSO lack the Analog  CH1-CH2 or CH 2 INV function to get a differential  view.
Really you have no idea what features are in the modern DSO, none at all !
Minus is a very common Math function and Invert is a channel menu feature both of which are top level menu items in their respective places.........NOT front panel buttons or switches !
Further these 2 functions (Minus Math and Invert) appear in channel tabs plain as day so not to divert the eye away from where the action is really happening......on the display !

Is it because of EASL or are datasheets and manuals difficult for you to understand ?

Like I mentioned before you could really benefit from getting a modern DSO to learn what they really can do instead of some decades old blinkered incorrect opinion.
(EASL)? what CRO got to do with Liver association or EA basketball league? ;D btw if SW math is not preferable, being slow as its excuse. buy differential probe, or make an inverting opamp (of differential probe input in reverse), they are jellybean cheap today. a very good differential CH2-CH1 (high CMRR @ high BW) is not cheap anyway, today and before. if big names like Tek/Keysight/Lecroy/R&S opted to remove that features from DSO, there must be due to some logical reason. dont be a person who want to buy CRO just because it has CH1-CH2 or CH 2 INV HW function. just as a person who want to buy DSO just because Auto button, they are very minority here though, or beginner who just came here ready to be educated.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 05:47:13 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline tautech

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #120 on: December 16, 2022, 06:00:02 am »
Many DSO lack the Analog  CH1-CH2 or CH 2 INV function to get a differential  view.
Really you have no idea what features are in the modern DSO, none at all !
Minus is a very common Math function and Invert is a channel menu feature both of which are top level menu items in their respective places.........NOT front panel buttons or switches !
Further these 2 functions (Minus Math and Invert) appear in channel tabs plain as day so not to divert the eye away from where the action is really happening......on the display !

Is it because of EASL or are datasheets and manuals difficult for you to understand ?

Like I mentioned before you could really benefit from getting a modern DSO to learn what they really can do instead of some decades old blinkered incorrect opinion.
(EASL)?
English as second language......what other excuse is there for such grossly wrong thinking ?

We each have a responsibility to those that come after to provide the best correct and latest information not some ramblings from last century.

Quote
or beginner who just came here ready to be educated.
This is our responsibility ^^^ to provide accurate and correct facts.

Take the topic of this thread and ask whom manufacturers a CRT TV or monitor today and then ask who in these energy challenged times would want to use one ?

At one time walked then we used horses to pull carts then made cars and then planes....it's called progress and difficult for some to fathom or accept.  ::)
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #121 on: December 16, 2022, 06:43:48 am »
English as second language......what other excuse is there for such grossly wrong thinking ?
if EASL is a problem, we have TESL very well accepted in academic level. ;) the usual reasons imho is lack of googling, or hard to get rid old habit (i also have this syndrome in computer programming and CAD notions)

At one time walked then we used horses to pull carts then made cars and then planes....it's called progress and difficult for some to fathom or accept.  ::)
but people can still argue horses dont need gas, not poluting environment, no need dedicated parking lot or lane and other sane reasons. at least i saw in movie, some police dept or enforcement still use horses in 1st world.. so people can use the analogy to stick with CRO, but for the above said unreasonable reason (fallacy). ymmv.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #122 on: December 16, 2022, 07:18:55 am »
Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.

Micsigs have a mode where they continuously adjust the horizontal/vertical scale to track the input signal - no need to press a button!  :)

It is hard to think of a more annoying feature!

Depends on the implementation. Watch this video at the 12:40 mark before deciding:



He leaves it on for most of the video. Just watch...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2022, 07:21:23 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #123 on: December 16, 2022, 07:31:38 am »
Unfortunately I have heard too many people saying they want a digitial scope solely because of the auto-setup button. On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a scope, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it.
Micsigs have a mode where they continuously adjust the horizontal/vertical scale to track the input signal - no need to press a button!  :)
It is hard to think of a more annoying feature!
Depends on the implementation. Watch this video at the 12:40 mark before deciding:
some people make fun of Auto feature in DSO, but at the same time the same person wants everythings "managed" automatically from behind when discussing in Programming Language section...  On further questioning, they actively don't want to learn what's in a programming language, nor its pitfalls and traps, nor how to get the best from it... ;D btw, i'm "manual car" type of guy, so i dont use Auto feature very much, the same in (C/C++) programming language. cheers.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline MegaVolt

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Re: True analog scopes
« Reply #124 on: December 16, 2022, 08:38:59 am »
Just go on digikey (or whatever) and filter the oscilloscopes by "CRT"
Unfortunately this won't work. The presence of a CRT monitor does not guarantee that the oscilloscope is analog. HP/Agilent produced digital oscilloscopes with CRT monitors.
 


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