Author Topic: Try before you buy?  (Read 14231 times)

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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #125 on: January 05, 2023, 05:27:10 pm »
- Discontinued product means: no more parts and service
No it does not.  Discontinued means they no longer manufacture it.  However, a company Like Fluke MUST have a service policy for their discontinued instruments.  If they don't then I dodged a pretty serious bullet didn't I?  I can imagine a large company or University buying 100 Fluke 87V meters only to have Fluke announce a few months later they go F-off because they are discontinued.  No, Fluke woudl never have gotten where they are if they did not support discontinued instruments.  They're just pricks though.

If you read the Lifetime Warranty of Fluke (for equipments with such), it states that the support for equipment discontinued is up to 8 years after end of production.

Even normal 2 year warranty equipments (thermometers, Scope Meters, etc) parts should be available for at least 5 years, per talks I had back in 2014 with the Portuguese Fluke Authorised reseller and warranty provider - AresAgante Lda.
 
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Online mawyatt

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #126 on: January 05, 2023, 05:38:32 pm »
.....
- Discontinued product means: no more parts and no more service. Maybe you can get lucky and get something repaired based on 'best effort' but that's it.

Don't think this is generally true, maybe with some lower tier OEMs. As Billy mentioned "Discontinued" means the product is no longer manufactured, whether service and parts are still offered by the OEM is another issue. 

HPAK for example have maintained service and components long after a product was "Discontinued", good example here is the HP34401A.

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 
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Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #127 on: January 05, 2023, 05:59:20 pm »
- Discontinued product means: no more parts and service
No it does not.  Discontinued means they no longer manufacture it.  However, a company Like Fluke MUST have a service policy for their discontinued instruments.  If they don't then I dodged a pretty serious bullet didn't I?  I can imagine a large company or University buying 100 Fluke 87V meters only to have Fluke announce a few months later they go F-off because they are discontinued.  No, Fluke woudl never have gotten where they are if they did not support discontinued instruments.  They're just pricks though.

If you read the Lifetime Warranty of Fluke (for equipments with such), it states that the support for equipment discontinued is up to 8 years after end of production.

Even normal 2 year warranty equipments (thermometers, Scope Meters, etc) parts should be available for at least 5 years, per talks I had back in 2014 with the Portuguese Fluke Authorised reseller and warranty provider - AresAgante Lda.
Yes, I saw that (it's actually 7 years after discontinuation and 10 years after purchase), but then I assume there would some sort of post warranty support.  There is no way on earth I would spend $700 on a meter and not be able to get parts or service for it more than 10 years down the road.  10 years.  That's some "lifetime"!  I guess if you're a dog it might work.  I thought trusted brands like Fluke and such did not need to exaggerate for marketing purposes?  Aren't they just so inherently great they can be honest?  Why just say it's a 10 year warranty (except when it's a 7 year warranty)?

They also mention extended service, but do not say how long it's for.

Oh, and I just noticed .. to even get the opportunity to spend money on extended service you have to send it in and pay for a pre-extended service inspection.

$$ $$ $$  ::)

Still no idea how long that will last though.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 06:04:41 pm by BillyO »
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Online nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #128 on: January 05, 2023, 06:37:01 pm »
In a company equipment is typically written off in 3 to 5 years. That is the market brands like Fluke are aiming at.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #129 on: January 05, 2023, 06:43:26 pm »
Fair enough, but I'm not a company.

So, from my perspective (or the perspective of any hobbyist) my original statement was not complete nonsense.  They don't give a rat's ass about us to the extent they will not even reply to our inquiries.
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Offline mtk

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #130 on: January 05, 2023, 07:14:19 pm »
Those large companies like Tektronix, Fluke … are just playing with their customers. The products do not have complete technical documentation, including schematics and firmware. In some cases they are not reparable or the company might require a large amount of money for replacement parts. To speak nothing about the initial purchasing prices. I purchased recently USB oscilloscope Hantek 6074BC – 126 USD, a similar PicoScope 2408B is 1335 USD. 10 times higher price for similar item is really quite a lot.
 

Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #131 on: January 05, 2023, 07:37:15 pm »
Those large companies like Tektronix, Fluke … are just playing with their customers.
I wouldn't go that far.  They just don't care about the hobbyist (us) and are probably not a good partner for us because of that.

The products do not have complete technical documentation, including schematics and firmware.
They are not very different from anyone else in this respect.  With today's ultra hig level of integration and ultra small sized SMD components, not too many people are equipped to do re-work on these.  They still publish schematics for their serviceable equipment of just a few years ago and going back to the 70's in some cases.

I purchased recently USB oscilloscope Hantek 6074BC – 126 USD, a similar PicoScope 2408B is 1335 USD. 10 times higher price for similar item is really quite a lot.
I think if you dig you will find the Pico a considerably better scope than the Hantek.  I have the Hantek and it's a decent piece of hardware for the price, but the software leaves a little lot to be desired.  One good thing about the Hantek is that the front end is good to about 250MHz.  If you run just one channel you will get this full BW and the full 1Gs/s sample rate.  Get yourself a 250MHz probe and enjoy that undocumented feature.  :-+
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Online tautech

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #132 on: January 05, 2023, 09:10:40 pm »
I understand it's considered abuse. 
This project I helped with a few years back was proper abuse, both for the massive hours we pulled putting it together and of the machinery too.
1000+HP from an abused 20B stock block (a bit of porting and boost excluded) didn't make for a long lasting motor but the new recessed engine plate and billet housings should be more reliable @ 10k RPM and 1500 HP.
It's a NZ class called Pro Import, a sub class of Sport Compact.

Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #133 on: January 05, 2023, 09:36:50 pm »
There is no way on earth I would spend $700 on a meter and not be able to get parts or service for it more than 10 years down the road.  10 years.  That's some "lifetime"!  I guess if you're a dog it might work.  I thought trusted brands like Fluke and such did not need to exaggerate for marketing purposes?  Aren't they just so inherently great they can be honest?  Why just say it's a 10 year warranty (except when it's a 7 year warranty)?

They're quite clear about the terms and they go much further with their product repairability, warranty and life cycle than anyone else I'm aware of.  10 years is the worst-case for warranty and product support.  Does any other manufacturer guarantee that, if they even sell parts or provide service at all? Fluke doesn't change product models often and I think the main driver when they do is simply inability to continue sourcing the parts.  Should I expect them to stockpile ancient flat-pack ICs in case my 27 needs service? 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #134 on: January 05, 2023, 10:16:14 pm »
There is no way on earth I would spend $700 on a meter and not be able to get parts or service for it more than 10 years down the road.  10 years.  That's some "lifetime"!  I guess if you're a dog it might work.  I thought trusted brands like Fluke and such did not need to exaggerate for marketing purposes?  Aren't they just so inherently great they can be honest?  Why just say it's a 10 year warranty (except when it's a 7 year warranty)?

They're quite clear about the terms and they go much further with their product repairability, warranty and life cycle than anyone else I'm aware of.  10 years is the worst-case for warranty and product support.  Does any other manufacturer guarantee that, if they even sell parts or provide service at all? Fluke doesn't change product models often and I think the main driver when they do is simply inability to continue sourcing the parts.  Should I expect them to stockpile ancient flat-pack ICs in case my 27 needs service?
I think your missing my point.  I'm not asking them to support the product ad infinitum, just tell me their policy.  For example, back when I had a part-time job a a motorcycle dealer, Yamaha had an official and public policy that they would continue to provide parts for any motorcycle for 12 years after production stopped.  I have no idea what it is now, but there was no "Okay, pay some more money and we'll keep making parts .. but just for, and only if you pay us to inspect your bike first and we like what we see."

So you say they are clear.  Then tell me, how long will parts and service be available for the 87V?  At east 10 years is not a complete answer, as they offer extended service .. but for how long?  When is the line drawn in the sand?  So, to me it was/is not clear.

In any case, if they had come back with any reply at all things might have been different.  That is my point.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #135 on: January 05, 2023, 10:42:42 pm »
Then tell me, how long will parts and service be available for the 87V?

The 87V? They're never going to stop making them, ever, so it's moot.

You can ask about the 187, or whatever, but not the 87V.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #136 on: January 06, 2023, 03:16:27 am »
I understand it's considered abuse. 
This project I helped with a few years back was proper abuse, both for the massive hours we pulled putting it together and of the machinery too.
1000+HP from an abused 20B stock block (a bit of porting and boost excluded) didn't make for a long lasting motor but the new recessed engine plate and billet housings should be more reliable @ 10k RPM and 1500 HP.
It's a NZ class called Pro Import, a sub class of Sport Compact.

Looking for my soft side?  My old Suzuki is a pig compared with a modern bike.   It will go 140MPH to the 1/8 mile and turn the quarter in under 8 seconds.   That's with my lard ass driving it.   This bike was 105HP stock.   I have no idea what it is now but enough the frame was twisting and scaring the wife..

Then we have me turning a little plastic knob on a Siglent Arb.  That's some scary shit there....   


Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #137 on: January 06, 2023, 03:48:00 am »
I understand it's considered abuse. 
This project I helped with a few years back was proper abuse, both for the massive hours we pulled putting it together and of the machinery too.
1000+HP from an abused 20B stock block (a bit of porting and boost excluded) didn't make for a long lasting motor but the new recessed engine plate and billet housings should be more reliable @ 10k RPM and 1500 HP.
It's a NZ class called Pro Import, a sub class of Sport Compact.
Looking for my soft side?  My old Suzuki is a pig compared with a modern bike.   It will go 140MPH to the 1/8 mile and turn the quarter in under 8 seconds.   That's with my lard ass driving it.   This bike was 105HP stock.   I have no idea what it is now but enough the frame was twisting and scaring the wife..

Then we have me turning a little plastic knob on a Siglent Arb.  That's some scary shit there....   


Awesome!  I had a 1978 GS750 (not the "E") and later a 1982 GS1100E.  I never did any performance mods to either of these bikes, but they were the most reliable and competent bikes I ever owned.  Before that I was a DITW Yamaha RD fan and did a lot of mods on them and even raced them for a while.  However, the only big bikes I could get comfy with were the Suzuki's .. and I worked for a bike dealership in those days and had access to Suzuki, Yamaha, Honda, Kawasaki and HD.  My last street only bike was an ancient '73 Honda CB750.  I picked it up because it was supposed to be a classic but unlike a Tek 465, naw.  It was a total disappointment to a guy that had the pleasure of riding the Suzuki's I had.  I got it for $200 so who can really complain, but as a daily (the other reason I bought it), it was a no go.  Anyway, since 1994 I have been an off-road guy almost 100% and now at 65 even that is tapering off (but slowly .. I hope).
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Online tautech

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #138 on: January 06, 2023, 07:25:57 am »
My old Suzuki is a pig compared with a modern bike. 
Yeah, you've shared that with me before.
Quote
Looking for my soft side?
Is the rumor true and you have one ?
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Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline mtk

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #139 on: January 06, 2023, 08:36:57 am »
Those large companies like Tektronix, Fluke … are just playing with their customers.
I wouldn't go that far.  They just don't care about the hobbyist (us) and are probably not a good partner for us because of that.

You are a customer, no matter hobbyist or professional they suppose to provide proper technical support. Have you considered petitioning the Canadian parliament about implementing legislation for better customer protection ? From my personal experience the customer protection in Canada – horrible.

The products do not have complete technical documentation, including schematics and firmware.
They are not very different from anyone else in this respect.  With today's ultra hig level of integration and ultra small sized SMD components, not too many people are equipped to do re-work on these.  They still publish schematics for their serviceable equipment of just a few years ago and going back to the 70's in some cases.

There are microscopes, most of the stuff are reparable with proper equipment. Those companies suppose to provide proper documentation. If they don’t they can be forced, by limiting their access to the local market etc. By the way are you aware, that those companies when sell equipment in Canada suppose to be registered with the appropriate regulatory bodies and comply with their rules.

I purchased recently USB oscilloscope Hantek 6074BC – 126 USD, a similar PicoScope 2408B is 1335 USD. 10 times higher price for similar item is really quite a lot.
I think if you dig you will find the Pico a considerably better scope than the Hantek.  I have the Hantek and it's a decent piece of hardware for the price, but the software leaves a little lot to be desired.  One good thing about the Hantek is that the front end is good to about 250MHz.  If you run just one channel you will get this full BW and the full 1Gs/s sample rate.  Get yourself a 250MHz probe and enjoy that undocumented feature.  :-+

Thanks for the advice.
 

Offline jasonRF

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #140 on: January 06, 2023, 02:12:40 pm »
I purchased recently USB oscilloscope Hantek 6074BC – 126 USD, a similar PicoScope 2408B is 1335 USD. 10 times higher price for similar item is really quite a lot.
I think if you dig you will find the Pico a considerably better scope than the Hantek.  I have the Hantek and it's a decent piece of hardware for the price, but the software leaves a little lot to be desired.  One good thing about the Hantek is that the front end is good to about 250MHz.  If you run just one channel you will get this full BW and the full 1Gs/s sample rate.  Get yourself a 250MHz probe and enjoy that undocumented feature.  :-+
Interesting.  I have a couple of Picoscopes and love them, but they sure are pricey.  My approach when getting a nice 2-channel model was to buy used so I paid about 25% of retail (on a discontinued model and I did have to wait many months to find the deal...), but good deals on used 4-channel models do not exist. 

I have never really looked at the hantek usb scopes before - the first Hantek device I ever looked at was the DSO2D10 bench scope (stumbled across on Amazon) but the info I found on it online looked so depressing that I wrote-off the brand completely.  However, your USB model looks like a great deal as long as it works as advertised (which the DSO2x1x apparently do not).   On paper the 6074BC is more comparable to the Pico 2407B (4 x 70 MHz), which is 'only' $979 and is out of stock everywhere.  The Hantek has a lot less memory, doesn't seem to have a waveform generator (as far as I can tell from documentation) and the software doesn't have all the bells and whistles or polish, but it is more sensitive (2 mV/div vs 4 mV/div) and of course so much more affordable.

jason
 


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