Author Topic: Try before you buy?  (Read 14247 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2022, 02:57:12 am »
I guess you can still build good relationships over the internet.
The only one worth having.  ;)
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Offline dorkshoei

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2022, 02:59:18 am »
Sometime bady wrong with your browser settings....there's dozens of them !  :scared:
Example?

Note that I don't mean "sold on amazon.com" or even "fulfilled by amazon". "Sold by amazon" means that Amazon actually owns the device, and does not just hold it for the seller. This is extremely rare for expensive items with low sell-though rate. Amazon does not want to sit on inventory that does not sell.

I've seen Tautech say here on a few diff threads that the "sold by amazon" Siglents were really Siglent USA distributor. Like you I didn't agree but it didn't seem worth arguing about it :)
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2022, 03:18:35 am »
It for sure does feel like they made some bulk deal. I doubt Amazon are such huge fans of Siglent that they would buy literally everything from them.

At the same time, this lets Amazon dictate prices and that's why you see all those good discounts. But I guess this would be a part of the agreement. No way Silent loses money on this.
Alex
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2022, 03:29:13 am »
It is obviously fine to have random returns over multiple years. If you have 2-3 returns of test equipment a year, it might be enough.
I disagree. When I buy clothes online (*), I typically return 50% of the items for various reasons. This never has resulted in being flagged by any seller. Why should test equipment ordered online be any different? Getting a loaner is better ofcourse but this isn't always an option. And come to think of it, I have bought various pieces of test equipment which I returned because it didn't meet my expectations (on parts that where not specified in the datasheet at all).

* No, buying in a store is not an alternative because the shops over here have zero items in stock. Going there is just a waste of time.

Sometime bady wrong with your browser settings....there's dozens of them !  :scared:

And I guess this would be hugely region dependent, since I doubt Amazon would ship a scope to the US even if they have it in their AU warehouse.
Your guess is right. Amazon has various regions in which they sell or don't sell certain items. You can switch between countries and you'll see search results will be different.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 03:33:23 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline dorkshoei

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2022, 03:34:55 am »
It is obviously fine to have random returns over multiple years. If you have 2-3 returns of test equipment a year, it might be enough.
I disagree. When I buy clothes online (*), I typically return 50% of the items for various reasons. This never has resulted in being flagged by any seller. Why should test equipment ordered online be any different?

No clue for Holland but you're way above the statistical norm for the USA where for online clothing only 5% of buyers return 50-100%.    The norm is 1-10%.

Regardless, I'm not sure your online clothing purchases is a good comparison to TE.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 03:37:10 am by dorkshoei »
 

Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #55 on: December 27, 2022, 04:40:48 am »
They will absolutely have an issue if you do that all the time. Eventually they will flag your account and start limiting your returns. You also need to have a good reason for returns. If device as described and functional, but you don't like it, it is not a good reason.

I also would not say that this is ethical, since money does not come out of Amazon, it comes out of the seller's pocket. Seller can't resell the equipment as new anymore.

It is far better to find a place that rents out equipment and rent whatever you need first. This may be hard in general, since not all equipment is available that way, especially low end stuff.

Same tought

The only thing we have here is  construction equipments rentals  nothing else

Trying to rent an 15k oscilloscope  loll   and if you damage it ??
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 04:42:27 am by coromonadalix »
 

Offline Anthocyanina

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #56 on: December 27, 2022, 04:44:06 am »
And maybe it would be good to also consider the environmental impact of doing that. After all, they have to carry the thing to your home, then back, and if the box got damaged, they may have to get a new box, so it would be creating a considerable amount of waste for just a bit of comfort
 

Online ataradov

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #57 on: December 27, 2022, 04:53:09 am »
The only thing we have here is  construction equipments rentals  nothing else
It does not have to be "here". Equipment rental companies would ship stuff if necessary. Although financially it only makes sense for really expensive stuff. So, probably not anything you can buy on amazon anyway. They are not going to carry low end Rigol scope.

Trying to rent an 15k oscilloscope  loll   and if you damage it ??
There is insurance and stuff like this. It is not that uncommon to rent equipment and generally it works. You rent cars, and cars are more expensive than $15k.
Alex
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #58 on: December 27, 2022, 05:31:45 am »
Amazon will let you return it but what you are proposing is effectively using them as a loaner service rather than a retailer and personally I don't consider that ethical. Can you find someone local that owns the instruments you're considering that will let you play around with it? Or maybe just find all the reviews you can and narrow it down to a few you're considering then buy the one that looks the most promising. If it really fails to live up in some way then go ahead and return it, otherwise keep it.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2022, 05:59:18 am »
Amazon will let you return it but what you are proposing is effectively using them as a loaner service rather than a retailer and personally I don't consider that ethical. Can you find someone local that owns the instruments you're considering that will let you play around with it? Or maybe just find all the reviews you can and narrow it down to a few you're considering then buy the one that looks the most promising. If it really fails to live up in some way then go ahead and return it, otherwise keep it.
But the problem is that you don't know whether something really works until you tested it yourself. And you also need to look at it from the side of the seller: what is cheaper? Deal with sending out loaners or just accept a percentage of returns. Keep in mind that a typical margin stuff being sold is at least 60%. On clothes more like 90%. So a seller has quite a bit of margin to deal with a couple of returns that can be sold at 80% of the original retail price. For a low price item, asking them for a loaner may cost them more in labour costs than just dealing with a return.

edit: @dorkshoei: a big online fashion retailer in the NL is seeing an average return rate of 50%.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 07:09:57 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline dorkshoei

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2022, 06:06:46 am »
Keep in mind that a typical margin stuff being sold is at least 60%.
Are you making this up?

A direct to consumer business model might aim for 60%.

There is no way that TEequipment to take a random example is making 60% margin on TE sales.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 06:11:07 am by dorkshoei »
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2022, 06:33:26 am »
Sometime bady wrong with your browser settings....there's dozens of them !  :scared:
Example?

Note that I don't mean "sold on amazon.com" or even "fulfilled by amazon". "Sold by amazon" means that Amazon actually owns the device, and does not just hold it for the seller. This is extremely rare for expensive items with low sell-though rate. Amazon does not want to sit on inventory that does not sell.

I've seen Tautech say here on a few diff threads that the "sold by amazon" Siglents were really Siglent USA distributor. Like you I didn't agree but it didn't seem worth arguing about it :)
While not impressed Siglent NA feels they need sidestep shit on their extensive dealer network and sell products without direct support and/or have them shipped to all corners of the globe as Amazon products are I don't have much time for such sales practices as it only breeds bad blood when Amazon buyers come to authorized resellers for support.

Then I guess there is a bigger picture in sales strategy having built large sales volumes via Amazon and shutting competitors out.
How these sales are managed be it Siglent NA has a shop or Amazon sell for them I don't care but I'd rather Amazon sales don't tread on the toes of the official dealer network.
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Offline BillyOTopic starter

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #62 on: December 27, 2022, 06:43:41 am »
I think the terms "margin" and "profit" are being confused here.  A 50% margin is a 100% gross profit.  In other words, if the retailer buys a product for $50 and sells it for $100 he is collecting a 50% margin.  That said, in most bricks & mortar type outlets a 40% margin is the lower limit.  That means the retailer retains 40% of the sale price before expenses.  Due to the reduced overhead, ecommerce can sustain much lower margins.

A 60% gross profit equates to a 37.5% margin.

An actual 60% margin is unheard of outside of such things a drug dealing and equates to a 150% gross profit.  Nice work if you can get it, and you can get it if you try.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 07:00:17 am by BillyO »
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Online ataradov

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #63 on: December 27, 2022, 06:47:17 am »
I can see how "sold by amazon" is attractive for a vendor that sells a reasonably unique product. You essentially have to deal with only one high volume buyer and there is no direct replacement that Amazon can use, so they have to go back to you for more. But you are also completely losing control over pricing and Amazon has no issues selling a few units at a loss to drive the volume up. This sets unreasonable price levels, so you pretty much have to abandon any other sales method in the region.

Companies that let Amazon rebadge their products under Amazon brand (like amazon multimeters) are essentially competing with themselves. And this makes no sense to me unless upfront payment is really good.
Alex
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #64 on: December 27, 2022, 07:02:10 am »
Keep in mind that a typical margin stuff being sold is at least 60%.
Are you making this up?

A direct to consumer business model might aim for 60%.

There is no way that TEequipment to take a random example is making 60% margin on TE sales.
They are. I have been trading computer equipment in the past and 60% is the average margin from wholesale to consumer. To be clear: 40% of the consumer price is what the trader buys it from the wholesale distributor / importer. 60% is profit (well, not exactly because from this support, advertising, heating the building, etc need to be paid).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2022, 07:06:21 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #65 on: December 27, 2022, 02:34:47 pm »
Assuming for a business where you are planning to purchase several, I would expect any major company to have their sales team provide an on-site demonstration and leave the equipment behind for some length of time.   Anytime I have done this, I provide them with feedback, especially for products we don't purchase.   In some cases, we may only be looking at a single unit but the cost may justify that level of service.   

We used to rent more specialized equipment for short term projects.  This worked out well.   

Recently we bought a Siglent Arb where I work to test the waters so to speak.  It was less than impressive but we are only talking about a few hundred bucks and did not return it. 

For home, I don't expect that level of service and just do my homework for brand new equipment.   If I were to buy a new Siglent scope for home, I would have to get a demo unit.  After seeing how poorly the Arb worked and not getting any answer on if the problem existed with higher end models,  the risk would be too high.  Last thing I would want is a scope where I rotate the vertical gain knob in one direction and waveform gets smaller and then bigger.   You laugh but after seeing that Arb, I have little confidence in their ability to get the UI right.   

Mostly I buy used, name brand equipment (all I can afford).   If the seller states the product works and they offer a trial period, I will take that time to make sure there are no problems.  If I find any,  I'll try and work with the seller to resolve it.  The problem with this is the seller assumes I am some wannabe tech with a degree from a box of Cracker Jacks.  Getting over that hurdle quickly is a skill in itself. 

I did purchase a DMM from one of the major distributors mentioned often on this site.  When the meter arrived, I it was missing screws, broken wires and such.  Guessing it was one of the expert reviewers who can't tell a MOV from a PTC that wanted to try it out which included taking it apart.   When you have the skills of an untrained monkey that doesn't always work out so well.   I still have that meter. 

Offline tautech

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2022, 06:49:11 pm »
Recently we bought a Siglent Arb where I work to test the waters so to speak.  It was less than impressive but we are only talking about a few hundred bucks and did not return it. 

For home, I don't expect that level of service and just do my homework for brand new equipment.   If I were to buy a new Siglent scope for home, I would have to get a demo unit.  After seeing how poorly the Arb worked and not getting any answer on if the problem existed with higher end models,  the risk would be too high.  Last thing I would want is a scope where I rotate the vertical gain knob in one direction and waveform gets smaller and then bigger.   You laugh but after seeing that Arb, I have little confidence in their ability to get the UI right.   
Joe, there is a new firmware for these AWG's that had been reported to address encoder behaviour.
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Signal_generator/SDG2000X_V2.01.01.37R3_EN.zip
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2022, 03:03:48 am »
Recently we bought a Siglent Arb where I work to test the waters so to speak.  It was less than impressive but we are only talking about a few hundred bucks and did not return it. 

For home, I don't expect that level of service and just do my homework for brand new equipment.   If I were to buy a new Siglent scope for home, I would have to get a demo unit.  After seeing how poorly the Arb worked and not getting any answer on if the problem existed with higher end models,  the risk would be too high.  Last thing I would want is a scope where I rotate the vertical gain knob in one direction and waveform gets smaller and then bigger.   You laugh but after seeing that Arb, I have little confidence in their ability to get the UI right.   

Joe, there is a new firmware for these AWG's that had been reported to address encoder behaviour.
https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Signal_generator/SDG2000X_V2.01.01.37R3_EN.zip

You may recall that was the story when I first reported it.  I'll check this latest version next week.  Maybe post another short video to show the improvement.  Funny to see the user posting about their Siglent DSO's encoder.   What's up with Siglent and encoders? 

Offline luudee

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2022, 05:37:23 am »

Typically, all big brands will offer free demos and even loaner devices pre-sales.

When I worked at SUN, the Tektronix rep would take us out to lunch, and bring and leave the latest and greatest test equipment for us to "evaluate" for up to 30 days.

And so did reps from HP and other companies.

Obviously, you need to be a "deep pocket" buyer, and that will mean only commercial buyers will be eligible,  but the path does exist.


luudee




 
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Offline jasonRF

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2022, 05:54:50 pm »
But the problem is that you don't know whether something really works until you tested it yourself.
As others have noted, if you are purchasing something with the intent of keeping it, then there is no moral issue with returning it if it doesn't really work or if it has some issue that is a big deal to you.  The OP proposed purchasing multiple competing items with the intent of returning all but one of them, which is a completely different thing.  That would go against my moral code, but to each their own. 

I do understand the folks who don't mind abusing the system if the only outcome is that it "sticks it to" Amazon.  In my opinion, the best way to stick it to Amazon is to spend much less money on their site.  While I still spend more money there than I should, these days I often purchase products from other stores when possible, even if it costs a little more or takes a few more days to arrive at my door. 

Jason
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2022, 06:09:43 pm »
But the problem is that you don't know whether something really works until you tested it yourself.
As others have noted, if you are purchasing something with the intent of keeping it, then there is no moral issue with returning it if it doesn't really work or if it has some issue that is a big deal to you.  The OP proposed purchasing multiple competing items with the intent of returning all but one of them, which is a completely different thing.  That would go against my moral code, but to each their own. 
But what is the difference between testing one at a time and several at the same time? I doubt anyone is going to order stuff with the intend of not keeping a single item but it all depends on whether the requirements are met. In the end the real problem is lack of proper specifications coming from the manufacturer. Typically the lower cost test equipment is a moving target anyway due to firmware updates adding new features and new bugs.

I agree with the notion of 'sticking it to Amazon'. Whatever cost is incurred on their side, will result in price rises but as I have written before: there is a huge margin on these products to begin with. Amazon is also dealing with parcels getting lost, DOAs, etc; you pay for that as well and it is still cheaper compared to insured shipping.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2022, 06:17:18 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2022, 06:16:39 pm »
As others have noted, if you are purchasing something with the intent of keeping it, then there is no moral issue with returning it if it doesn't really work or if it has some issue that is a big deal to you.  The OP proposed purchasing multiple competing items with the intent of returning all but one of them, which is a completely different thing.  That would go against my moral code, but to each their own. 

Yep. It's the intent that counts. If you're doing something that you know will cost somebody else money then it's not much different from theft even if it's legal to do it.
 

Offline dorkshoei

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2022, 06:17:16 pm »

But what is the difference between testing one at a time and several at the same time?

Are retailers offering a testing service?  No.    As already said 10x the issue (this was phased as a "moral" question) is your intent.   

You have some atypical purchasing ideas IMO.   Plus comparing TE to the online clothing industry is an odd comparison.

I do agree that the budget sellers do a poor job of describing their products on Amazon.    I don't think Siglent would however fall into this category plus as already said,  there is Youtube (and EEVBlog) where you can watch detailed product tear-down and eval videos.   

I have never needed to buy N items to evaluate and return N-1 but then I don't buy my clothes online either :-)
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #73 on: December 28, 2022, 06:19:50 pm »
I do agree that the budget sellers do a poor job of describing their products on Amazon.    I don't think Siglent would however fall into this category plus as already said,  there is Youtube (and EEVBlog) where you can watch detailed product tear-down and eval videos.   
I doubt you ever bought a piece of test equipment for serious use otherwise you'd known that Youtube is a far cry from a good source of information for test equipment. Youtube only helps to find out what is out there. Nothing more. And a teardown says absolutely ZERO about the useability of a piece of test equipment for a certain purpose.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline dorkshoei

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Re: Try before you buy?
« Reply #74 on: December 28, 2022, 06:25:47 pm »
I doubt you ever bought a piece of test equipment for serious use otherwise you'd known that Youtube is a far cry from a good source of information for test equipment.
So you're buying for "serious use" from budget manufacturers who provide little product information.   Got it ;-)
 


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