EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: ali_asadzadeh on June 22, 2015, 12:25:25 pm
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Hi,
300USD is my budget for it, it must be able to measure at least 100KHz and be able to measure under 10uH and under 100pF, I will use it primary for my work on switching power supplies, so do you recommend something cool, like the Rigol 400USD oscilloscope!! if it had a USB connection to PC it would be very nice too.
Regards
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You can buy an old HP LCR meter for that kind of money. Be prepared to adjust it and do some minor repairs though.
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Would the Der EE DE-5000 not work for you? It comes in at around $180 with the USB connection. Does 100kHz and I'm pretty certain can measure the ranges you want.
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I will use it primary for my work on switching power supplies, so do you recommend something cool, like the Rigol 400USD oscilloscope!!
Yes, if you don't have an Oscilloscope, then that would be my first purchase.
There is also a video on how to measure inductors and capacitors using an oscilloscope, done by w2aew: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fz9iwZ_sM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74fz9iwZ_sM)
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+1 for deree de5000, direct from japan.
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I'd be careful with recommending the DE5000. It doesn't support all values in all frequencies! Also for low ranges (like 100pf) you are likely to need a 4 wire connection. An advantage of the old HP boat anchors is that they also support external bias voltage and current.
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If you get the DE5000 make sure you get the TL-21 and TL-23 probes. Much cheaper than getting a bare meter and end up paying for them later (they are 4 wire, or 5 wire if you count the guard lead). Mine was just under $100 all in, delivered from Japan. :-+
You can easily modify the TL-21 croc-clip connector to use kelvin clips instead.
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Try the LC meter from Almost All Digital Electronics www.aade.com (http://www.aade.com) The owner is currently out of action due to illness but you may be able to buy one from a company in the USA called Kanga http://www.kangaus.com/content/aade-lc-meter (http://www.kangaus.com/content/aade-lc-meter) but ask first if he is willing to ship to Iran.
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You can get such resonant tank LC meter much cheaper from numerous sellers. IMHO they have the limitation that the components must have a sufficiently high Q factor for the tank circuit to resonate. Also the test frequency varies a lot.
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I'd be careful with recommending the DE5000. It doesn't support all values in all frequencies! Also for low ranges (like 100pf) you are likely to need a 4 wire connection. An advantage of the old HP boat anchors is that they also support external bias voltage and current.
Any LCR device has limitations on how high or low it can read a reactance, giving limits on values at different frequencies.
Four-wire connections are very easy with the DE5000. The normal alligator-clip fixture is four-wire up to the clip connection, and I have successfully changed the wiring on a TL-21 set, replacing the two shielded twisted-pair cables to the clips with four coaxes to a true Kelvin clip, starting with an eBay-special Kelvin test cable set and sacrificing the original connector.
If you measure down to 10 pF, be sure that the component connectors are in exactly the same location when you do the "open" calibration, since the capacitance between them may be important. I built two connector sets, each in an aluminum box, with binding posts mounted (at different spacings) on one face, and four BNCs to connect to another modified TL-21 with four short RG-174 BNC cables. The binding post positions are very constant.
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robrenz ultimate TL-21 hacking here -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/video-of-making-the-ultimate-kelvin-connection-(major-hacking-of-a-pomona-clip)/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/video-of-making-the-ultimate-kelvin-connection-(major-hacking-of-a-pomona-clip)/) :-+
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I checked my DE5000 with my home-built Kelvin leads on an 8.2 pF/NP0 disc ceramic capacitor. It shows an appropriate value at all frequencies (100, 120, 1000, 10k, and 100 kHz), but only one significant digit "8 pF" at the lowest frequencies. This is reasonable, since the reactance of 8.2 pF at 100 Hz is almost 200 Megohm, which is extreme. At 10 kHz (more appropriate for this capacitance), this falls to about 2 Megohm, more reasonable.
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Thanks for all, what about DE6000? the amazon says "Replaced by the More Accurate DE-6000"
Also how does this unit compare with key-sight U1733C? what's happening in the price space between them?
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Do a quick search here about the DE6000 and you will see a discussion about the differences. IMHO, the DE6000 is not worth the extra money.
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apart from 2-3 peoples that received a dead unit on arrival, I did not see anyone here on this forum that was disapointed by his $120 DerEE DE5000. if you want a better instrument, you have to go above the $1000 instrument. that's really more than enought for hobbysts.
if you're a pro, and need certificates for your instrument and your business, then go to a IET one, and pay 3-4x the price ?
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I checked my DE5000 with my home-built Kelvin leads on an 8.2 pF/NP0 disc ceramic capacitor. It shows an appropriate value at all frequencies (100, 120, 1000, 10k, and 100 kHz), but only one significant digit "8 pF" at the lowest frequencies. This is reasonable, since the reactance of 8.2 pF at 100 Hz is almost 200 Megohm, which is extreme. At 10 kHz (more appropriate for this capacitance), this falls to about 2 Megohm, more reasonable.
Still I think you'll run into limitations quickly with the DE5000. In many cases you need to apply a DC bias voltage or current to make certain measurements.
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Is buying from china a safe option?
maybe we can buy Agilent at the price of near DE-5000
http://s.taobao.com/search?q=U1733C&js=1&stats_click=search_radio_all%3A1&initiative_id=staobaoz_20150624&ie=utf8 (http://s.taobao.com/search?q=U1733C&js=1&stats_click=search_radio_all%3A1&initiative_id=staobaoz_20150624&ie=utf8)
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u1733c does not have 4 wires measurments - it's a non sense if you want to really measure milliohms ...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-lcr-meter-cem-dt-9935/msg188552/#msg188552 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/cheap-lcr-meter-cem-dt-9935/msg188552/#msg188552)
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Still I think you'll run into limitations quickly with the DE5000. In many cases you need to apply a DC bias voltage or current to make certain measurements.
Is there an LCR meter that will do DC bias for under $300?
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Still I think you'll run into limitations quickly with the DE5000. In many cases you need to apply a DC bias voltage or current to make certain measurements.
Is there an LCR meter that will do DC bias for under $300?
Not a new one but -as I wrote in an earlier post- an older HP LCR meter can certainly be had for that kind of money.
Another option is to connect DC blocking capacitors in series with the Hcur and Hpot signals and apply a DC voltage to a capacitor from a high impedance source (read: 10k resistor in series with a PSU) but that could lead to measurement uncertainties. I have used this trick to compare MLCC capacitors.
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Yes, buying used can be a great way to get some advanced gear, but it is random and if you need something now then buying used can be a problem if there is nothing on the market when you need it. In my case, being in Chile, this is especially true. Shipping can take months to arrive, some prices for shipping make it completely pointless to buy used.
I though of biasing separately but was also concerned about unknown effects in the measurement too.
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I agree it depends on where you are. Most of my equipment comes from the US or Asia. There is very little available locally in the NL.
I'm wondering how the used equipment market is where the topic starter is located.
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i'm in the market for LCR meter (working on AM/FM Transmitter and receivers) need to measure capacitors and inductors that i wind myself.
I see lots of good opinion on the DE-5000. Amazon sell them for about $110-$130. They use to be over $300, is the price drop just due to a newer model ?
I heard there some faked units. How can i tell if what Amazon sell is legit ?
What other LCR meters are you guys recommending in that kind of price ?
thanks
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i'm in the market for LCR meter (working on AM/FM Transmitter and receivers) need to measure capacitors and inductors that i wind myself.
I see lots of good opinion on the DE-5000. Amazon sell them for about $110-$130. They use to be over $300, is the price drop just due to a newer model ?
I heard there some faked units. How can i tell if what Amazon sell is legit ?
What other LCR meters are you guys recommending in that kind of price ?
thanks
There are many other threads on this.
IET DE-5000 Rebadged
DER EE DE-5000 OEM
The DER EE DE-5000 has always been a reasonable price (sub $100 on Ebay at least) the IET was the expensive model. If the DER EE DE-5000 meets your measurement requirements it's the best value.
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Still I think you'll run into limitations quickly with the DE5000. In many cases you need to apply a DC bias voltage or current to make certain measurements.
Is there an LCR meter that will do DC bias for under $300?
Not a new one but -as I wrote in an earlier post- an older HP LCR meter can certainly be had for that kind of money.
Another option is to connect DC blocking capacitors in series with the Hcur and Hpot signals and apply a DC voltage to a capacitor from a high impedance source (read: 10k resistor in series with a PSU) but that could lead to measurement uncertainties. I have used this trick to compare MLCC capacitors.
I will vote for U1733C, but I not sure if it will be within budget in you country.Look also for used HP/Fluke or Phillips LCR meters.
External bias circuits principles are described here http://www.personal.psu.edu/pjm112/PDF/BC.PDF (http://www.personal.psu.edu/pjm112/PDF/BC.PDF)
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So can i assume the IET DE-5000 is identical to the DER ?
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I will vote for U1733C
Why? The DE5000 is far better AND cheaper.
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I will vote for U1733C
Why? The DE5000 is far better AND cheaper.
+1
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So can i assume the IET DE-5000 is identical to the DER ?
technically, yes. the IET is the original brand one, the DER is a copy from the same factory.
with the IET you can get a NIST calibration certificate as an option may be usefull for your needs ?
otherwise the only difference is the price...
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So can i assume the IET DE-5000 is identical to the DER ?
technically, yes. the IET is the original brand one, the DER is a copy from the same factory.
with the IET you can get a NIST calibration certificate as an option may be usefull for your needs ?
otherwise the only difference is the price...
Actually, since IET seems to do very little, if any, design work and Der EE designs their own instruments, I'll bet the Der EE version existed first. Like most of their stuff though, it was hard to get until IET labs began OEMing the design for their own line.
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I believe IET do manufacture their own (very expensive) parts - like this top of the line decade resistor box - see Daves teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37gYHdY0DAM&ab_channel=EEVblog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37gYHdY0DAM&ab_channel=EEVblog)
The build quality is amazing, not like that DER EE Japanese rubbish ;) :-DD
However, they do claim to make a DE-6000 which has better accuracy than the DE-5000's. The only external difference is the branding and model number, internally it is amazingly exactly the same as the DER EE. I can't see any reason why they would lie. I mean they are a NIST calibration lab, and I would think the most important thing with a cal lab is that you can trust them with their very expensive pieces of paper. Telling lies or half-truths on something so fundamental as the specifications would undermine their whole business. :-//
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I believe IET do manufacture their own (very expensive) parts - like this top of the line decade resistor box - see Daves teardown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37gYHdY0DAM&ab_channel=EEVblog (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37gYHdY0DAM&ab_channel=EEVblog)
The build quality is amazing, not like that DER EE Japanese rubbish ;) :-DD
However, they do claim to make a DE-6000 which has better accuracy than the DE-5000's. The only external difference is the branding and model number, internally it is amazingly exactly the same as the DER EE. I can't see any reason why they would lie. I mean they are a NIST calibration lab, and I would think the most important thing with a cal lab is that you can trust them with their very expensive pieces of paper. Telling lies or half-truths on something so fundamental as the specifications would undermine their whole business. :-//
The DE-5000 is far from rubbish (also it is Taiwanese, though they apparently have a good distributor in Japan). Unless you are being sarcastic, with moving and finding a new place I haven't seen that video from dave yet so I don't know how it looks.
They don't MAKE a DE-6000, they are buying DE-5000 from Der EE and either doing a second calibration to tighten the VERY few specs they change or they are binning the DE-5000s they receive from Der EE and selecting the ones that can go a bit tighter on specs and calling those DE-6000. The fact is, between the DE-5000 and DE-6000 literally only the 1kHz specs have changed out of the dozens of specs. Those are tightened from 0.3% to 0.2% if I remember correctly. Humorously, in their DE-6000 document, one of the column they list as improved (DCR) is actually IDENTICAL to the DE-5000 document. They basic improvements they list sould be relatively easy to do, its pretty much the general assumption here that the DE-6000 is a marketing ploy to try to get people to not buy from the same OEM they do. So they aren't lying when they say its specs are better than the DE-5000. Just they aren't playing fully truthful either in calling it a new model number.
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Interesting thread, I'm also looking for an LCR meter for amateur radio/general electronics.
I used something like this in the radio club this week: http://en.axiomet.eu/product/axiomet/lcr-meter/ax-lcr41a/93 (http://en.axiomet.eu/product/axiomet/lcr-meter/ax-lcr41a/93)
I was quite impressed with it, I couldn't see a brand on it but was told it is "one hung low" :-DD
I'm looking at the DE-5000/6000
Also no one has suggested the Mastech MS5308, that's one I have been looking at, and the Atlas LCR meter, though that might be a bit basic.
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The DE-5000 is far from rubbish (also it is Taiwanese, though they apparently have a good distributor in Japan). Unless you are being sarcastic
Yeah, sorry. I know it's the lowest form of wit...
So they aren't lying when they say its specs are better than the DE-5000. Just they aren't playing fully truthful either in calling it a new model number.
I do recall them saying they have a custom firmware, rather than just selecting good 'uns.
Of course that makes one wonder how they program this firmware?
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The DE-5000 is far from rubbish (also it is Taiwanese, though they apparently have a good distributor in Japan). Unless you are being sarcastic
Yeah, sorry. I know it's the lowest form of wit...
So they aren't lying when they say its specs are better than the DE-5000. Just they aren't playing fully truthful either in calling it a new model number.
I do recall them saying they have a custom firmware, rather than just selecting good 'uns.
Of course that makes one wonder how they program this firmware?
This is what I think happened: At a trade show, one of IET's guys checked out the DER EE stand. He played around with the DE-5000 and immediately thought to himself, "Wow, this thing works great, it's cheap and accurate, we could slap our name on this and sell it with 500% profit!". So they did.
Then, the DE-5000s from Japan showed up. IET's sales plummet. Their execs get mad. They got kicked off the gravy train. They realize that nobody has any motivation for buying the same meter from IET for $500 that can be had on ebay for $100. They come up with a cunning plan: "Hey, why don't we order a bunch of DE-5000s in a different color and just make up some marketing bullshit so it's not quite so obvious that we're selling the exact same $100 Taiwanese LCR meter for a huge markup?" Suddenly, the DE-"6000" shows up.
Also, it was interesting how Dave never did that LCR meter shootout video against the Agilent and the DE-5000 disappered form his videos. Even at the IET price, it would've crushed the Agilent. I have a suspicion that Agilent threatened to cut him off if he did the shootout. Then, a few months later, Dave gets some big $$ Agilent stuff in the mail.
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Also, it was interesting how Dave never did that LCR meter shootout video against the Agilent and the DE-5000 disappered form his videos. Even at the IET price, it would've crushed the Agilent. I have a suspicion that Agilent threatened to cut him off if he did the shootout. Then, a few months later, Dave gets some big $$ Agilent stuff in the mail.
The DE-5000 never dissapeared - Episode #229 - IET DE-5000 LCR Meter Teardown (http://www.eevblog.com/2011/12/31/eevblog-229-iet-de-5000-lcr-meter-teardown/)
I seriously doubt Dave has been threatened by dark forces from Agilent! He also doesn't get to keep all the big $$ stuff either ('coz he flogs it on ebay :-DD)
But an LCR meter shootout would be very welcome :-+ :-+
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maybe mike could tell us more about the applent?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzHZFcVofUg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzHZFcVofUg)
Thumbs up for the Applent - I have one and no regrets over it. Has a touch display as well.
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Also, it was interesting how Dave never did that LCR meter shootout video against the Agilent and the DE-5000 disappered form his videos. Even at the IET price, it would've crushed the Agilent. I have a suspicion that Agilent threatened to cut him off if he did the shootout. Then, a few months later, Dave gets some big $$ Agilent stuff in the mail.
The DE-5000 never dissapeared - Episode #229 - IET DE-5000 LCR Meter Teardown (http://www.eevblog.com/2011/12/31/eevblog-229-iet-de-5000-lcr-meter-teardown/)
I seriously doubt Dave has been threatened by dark forces from Agilent! He also doesn't get to keep all the big $$ stuff either ('coz he flogs it on ebay :-DD)
But an LCR meter shootout would be very welcome :-+ :-+
That's what I meant. He did the teardown, but after that, no review, no shootout, nothing. Anyway ... I'm happy I found out about it and got one. Along with the DS1054Z, easily the best value for money in test equipment ever.
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Could the LCR Front end fro the DE-5000 made my cyrystek ES51920 or a similar?
http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf (http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf)
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Also, it was interesting how Dave never did that LCR meter shootout video against the Agilent and the DE-5000 disappered form his videos. Even at the IET price, it would've crushed the Agilent. I have a suspicion that Agilent threatened to cut him off if he did the shootout. Then, a few months later, Dave gets some big $$ Agilent stuff in the mail.
The DE-5000 never dissapeared - Episode #229 - IET DE-5000 LCR Meter Teardown (http://www.eevblog.com/2011/12/31/eevblog-229-iet-de-5000-lcr-meter-teardown/)
I seriously doubt Dave has been threatened by dark forces from Agilent! He also doesn't get to keep all the big $$ stuff either ('coz he flogs it on ebay :-DD)
But an LCR meter shootout would be very welcome :-+ :-+
That's what I meant. He did the teardown, but after that, no review, no shootout, nothing. Anyway ... I'm happy I found out about it and got one. Along with the DS1054Z, easily the best value for money in test equipment ever.
I think the meaningful LCRs shootout is not fair against any calibration standards (without VNA data). The problem is that there is no tradition in standards market to fully characterize all impedance values for range of frequencies. The best shootout (in 4-5 digits range), should possibly include some undisputable VNA measuring some calibration targets, and then going through various LCR/ESR meters.
And who knows, what VNA people will consider the final trustable meter. Also it is not easy (for person with limited budget) to come with good set of calibration standards for C and L.
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Could the LCR Front end fro the DE-5000 made my cyrystek ES51920 or a similar?
http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf (http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf)
yes all these recent lcr meters IET, DEREE, APPLENT,etc are based on this cyrustek chip.
this chip is only available to lcr manufacturers, so don't think about making one yourself ;)
get a deree 5000 it's the best bang for buck today for a lcr meter. (and no it is not robust as a real esr meter)
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Interesting thread, I'm also looking for an LCR meter for amateur radio/general electronics.
The original post concerned using an LCR meter to test components for switch mode power supplies operating up to 100 KHz. Most of the LC meters use test frequencies up to 500 KHz, which isn't a problem for these lower frequency tasks. However, for amateur radio the frequencies are likely to be HF, or higher, and that is a huge problem when using 500 KHz to measure inductors with iron dust cores.
It is easy to be fooled by a meter that claims to measure inductors with a resolution of 0.01uH, implying that small values of inductance (as generally used on HF and VHF) can be measured. They probably can be if air cored, but will give significant errors if wound on iron dust cores such as a T50-6 toroid.
I have an LC200A meter from eBay, these are basic meters costing around 25 GBP that appear to work well on capacitor measurements (based on close tolerance silver mica and polystyrene measurements of a few pF upwards), but become increasingly less accurate on inductors wound on dust cores as the frequency increases.
The "better", if more tedious, method of testing iron dust core inductors is to use a parallel known value of capacitor calculated to resonate near the expected frequency, and measure the resonant frequency with a dip meter such as a Heathkit HD1250. The result won't be accurate to a fraction of a micro Henry, but it will be closer than the result obtained from a digital meter running at 500 KHz.
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Could the LCR Front end fro the DE-5000 made my cyrystek ES51920 or a similar?
http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf (http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51920.pdf)
yes all these recent lcr meters IET, DEREE, APPLENT,etc are based on this cyrustek chip.
this chip is only available to lcr manufacturers, so don't think about making one yourself ;)
get a deree 5000 it's the best bang for buck today for a lcr meter. (and no it is not robust as a real esr meter)
Can't say its a bargain and like any geek buying T&M equipment is always nice (which reminds me o women buying bags and shoes although they do not need ehheh). But for now I'll keep my Philips PM6303
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just ordered the DE-5000 :-+
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just ordered the DE-5000 :-+
Congratulations :-+ I hope you got the full package with the tweezers and the alligator clips.
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yes i did, not sure i know exactly how to use it yet though :)
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Well ... here's some manuals then:
http://akizukidenshi.com/download/ds/deree/DE-5000_manu_en2p.pdf (http://akizukidenshi.com/download/ds/deree/DE-5000_manu_en2p.pdf)
http://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Manuals/DE_5000_im.pdf (http://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/Manuals/DE_5000_im.pdf)