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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 01:30:45 pm

Title: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 01:30:45 pm
Hello

My electronic lab is almost complete...just an universal counter is missing (o;

I saw this HP5335A one on ebay lately:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201098970897?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/201098970897?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649)

Or is this one too expensive?

At least I would need one with GPIB interface as all my current lab equipment has it for remote control.



Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: PE1RKI on June 10, 2014, 01:46:03 pm
here is a thread about the 5335a with some info you might like,
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-5335a-timer-counter-anything-i-should-know/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-5335a-timer-counter-anything-i-should-know/)

150 is not bad, if you are lucky you can get it cheaper but you may need to wait and hunt for it some time.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 02:02:36 pm
I read that one through...seems the internal oscillator is the weakest link...

When searching for 10811-60111 I find several different models on ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=10811-60111&_sop=15 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=10811-60111&_sop=15)

And most probably they would need recalibration after mounting?

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: PE1RKI on June 10, 2014, 02:09:23 pm
dont know much about those.

i bought a rubidium years ago but never had the time to hook it up
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=rubidium&_sop=15&_osacat=92074&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC2.A0.H0.Xrubidium+10mhz&_nkw=rubidium+10mhz&_sacat=92074 (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=rubidium&_sop=15&_osacat=92074&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR10.TRC2.A0.H0.Xrubidium+10mhz&_nkw=rubidium+10mhz&_sacat=92074)

they age over time but still good enough maybe.
you can also lock the 10mhz to gps.
but i am not a time nut as they say
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 02:19:50 pm
Just found this GPSDO project:

http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd0.htm (http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/frqstd0.htm)

Might be worth a try....also because I've seen that many equipment can use an external 10MHz reference clock signal....

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: Terabyte2007 on June 10, 2014, 02:25:01 pm
I have 2 B&K 1823A counters and I really like them. If you want to consider an alternative, this is a look.

http://www.bkprecision.com/products/counters/frequency-counters/1823A-2-4-ghz-universal-frequency-counter-with-ratio-function.html (http://www.bkprecision.com/products/counters/frequency-counters/1823A-2-4-ghz-universal-frequency-counter-with-ratio-function.html)

They have a 3.5GHz model also.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: PE1RKI on June 10, 2014, 02:38:15 pm
5335 can count max to 12 digits.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 02:43:24 pm
Seems I vote for the HP5335A, as the GPIB is a must for me ;-)
Hope my shelf can hold all the weight with the heavy equipment...

And now for searching a suitable GPS module and VCXO (o;

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 04:48:15 pm
Hmm..found another 5335A with option 010, but I'm not sure how easy it is to fix "Fail 5.1", or "Start Interpolator Problem"...

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: bingo600 on June 10, 2014, 06:38:18 pm
Watch out for failing interpolators , they are unobtanium on some HP models.
The 10Mhz is much easier to fix (get a good one) , than an unobtanium HP part.

/Bingo
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on June 10, 2014, 06:43:02 pm
I just ordered the working one....as well as two VCXO....haven't found a GPS module with 10kHz output yet....seems to be hard to get those Jupiter modules..

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: Vgkid on June 10, 2014, 10:04:18 pm
look up Navman tu-60.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: saturation on June 11, 2014, 12:11:03 pm
Its a well respected counter, but IMHO the Racal Dana 199x series is a good alternative are better; less reports of them not working, run near $100, and the key complaint is the keyboard which is easy to repair.  More unobtanium in the HP5335a.  You can find discussions on the Racal in the archives.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: linux-works on June 11, 2014, 02:28:11 pm
fluke and tek have some nice old counters, but not many of the older ones will have remove control.

(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5519/13972918062_fd757cc823_c.jpg)

that's a fluke counter I bought a few months ago.  goes up to 500mhz or so.  has 10mhz 'ref' input on the rear and I'm using my rubidium to set that freq.

but again, no remote control on it.

I prefer gpib or rs232 but lack of that won't stop me from getting good gear that is not remote controlled.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: PE1RKI on June 11, 2014, 04:13:28 pm
the fluke and the racall are whole different meters then the 5335.

the hp has multiply, add, substract, divide and a few more things.
this is handy when working with IF or with my /8 and /64 prescalers to 12ghz
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: saturation on June 11, 2014, 04:33:09 pm
There are many versions of the Racal.  If you want ~ = math functions of the HP you want the Racal 1996 or similar [most are available in the portable 1992].  Other Racal models in the 199x series are +/- functions depending on what was the owner wished they could afford to buy.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/racal-dana-1996-frequency-counter/msg168210/#msg168210 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/racal-dana-1996-frequency-counter/msg168210/#msg168210)


Quote from: PE1RKI on June 11, 2014, 04:13:28 pm
the fluke and the racall are whole different meters then the 5335.

the hp has multiply, add, substract, divide and a few more things.
this is handy when working with IF or with my /8 and /64 prescalers to 12ghz
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: edpalmer42 on June 11, 2014, 05:15:21 pm
Quote from: saturation on June 11, 2014, 12:11:03 pm
Its a well respected counter, but IMHO the Racal Dana 199x series are better; less reports of them not working, run near $100, and the key complaint is the keyboard which is easy to repair.  More unobtanium in the HP5335a.  You can find discussions on the Racal in the archives.

Actually the 199x counters have a big chunk of unobtanium.  I bought two counters - one working, one dead.  There's a custom IC in a 40 pin ceramic DIP.  It normally runs rather hot and in one of my units it ended up at something like 90C.  No smoke, but it didn't work either.  :(  I added a heatsink to that chip in my other counter.

Ed
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: saturation on June 15, 2014, 11:56:59 am
I think you're right Ed, I stand corrected.  After spending a few days researching available help the HP is superior in external user support and documentation.  Both have their share of unobtanium, [e.g. Plessy ICs and ECL logic] cannibalization of units is the key and both are available in good numbers.  When I was looking for a counter over 2 years, I noticed more working Racal's 1.3GHz Option C and TXCO over the HP at the same price.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: G0HZU on June 15, 2014, 02:02:18 pm
I have always liked Racal stuff so Racal would be high on my list of used/cheap but high performance counters.

Another one would be the Anritsu MF1603A (3GHz reciprocal) counter. You can get these with GPIB as an option and various OCXO options. These either sell for huge money or ridiculously cheap depending on the seller's knowledge.

This counter has a fairly small footprint compared to the huge HP models and it's going to be far better built inside. You won't have much chance of getting spares for it but I would expect a 1990s Anritsu counter to prove far more reliable than anything HP or Racal built in the 1980s. In my experience, HP gear is usually technically brilliant but also usually fragile both inside and out.

I paid £65 for my MF1603A (c/w GPIB and option3 OCXO) a year or so ago but prices are typically £200 - £1000.

http://www.teknetelectronics.com/DataSheet/Anritsu/Anrit_MF160xA32511.pdf (http://www.teknetelectronics.com/DataSheet/Anritsu/Anrit_MF160xA32511.pdf)
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: G0HZU on June 15, 2014, 02:32:17 pm
Another option that might meet the requirements is the old Philips PM6669 reciprocal counter.
I bought one of these little counters ages ago and these counters had GPIB as an option. Sadly, mine doesn't have GPIB and it also has the cheap/std 10MHz internal oscillator. It does have the 1.3GHz option fitted though.

It does perform quite well as a general purpose timer/counter if you can live with the rather gloomy LCD display.

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on July 11, 2014, 07:46:51 am
Received now my Jupiter-T GPS receiver...also an external antenna....

From the description I read that the GPS module features an SMA connector...but seems it must be something else as the GPS antenna with SMA doesn't fit....

Someone knows what kind of connector the Jupiter-T Navman module has in the picture?
Looks to me like a SMB connector.....

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: David Hess on July 11, 2014, 08:33:06 am
If you can live without interpolation, then the HP5316A (has GPIB) will probably be less expensive.  I really like the HP5315A as a basic universal reciprocal counter.

GPIB is an option on the Racal-Dana 1991/1992 and they are tiny for their capability.

What about the HP5334A?

I forget which but isn't the HP5334A or HP5335A known to have a very noisy fan?
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: PE1RKI on July 11, 2014, 09:11:31 am
if you dont want to mess up the cable, there are smb to sma adapters on ebay.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: babysitter on July 11, 2014, 12:17:17 pm
@David Hess:

Having HP5334A, no Fan anywhere. Must be the 5335 Series. ^-^
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: David Hess on July 11, 2014, 04:05:44 pm
Quote from: babysitter on July 11, 2014, 12:17:17 pm
Having HP5334A, no Fan anywhere. Must be the 5335 Series. ^-^

The time-nuts list has had some in depth discussions about these HP counters going over the differences but I only have the HP5315A so far so I have not paid close attention.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: synapsis on July 11, 2014, 07:45:39 pm
I have a 5335A and the only thing louder than its fan is the Air Force base near my house.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: plesa on July 11, 2014, 08:07:26 pm
Quote from: davorin on July 11, 2014, 07:46:51 am
Received now my Jupiter-T GPS receiver...also an external antenna....

From the description I read that the GPS module features an SMA connector...but seems it must be something else as the GPS antenna with SMA doesn't fit....

Someone knows what kind of connector the Jupiter-T Navman module has in the picture?
Looks to me like a SMB connector.....

It is SMB connector.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 04, 2014, 02:00:13 pm
FInally got some time putting together a GPSDO prototype based on the schematic here:

http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/manual.pdf (http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/projects/ministd/manual.pdf)

The received Jupiter-T GPS module is though different in pin layout as it features 10 pin sonly...also the communication is 9600 baud and not 4800 as written on most sites...


As I would also like to display satellite and timing information on the front panel....a small problem arises....well..could be solved in software maybe...

When I trigger a command to read out the actual time and satellites levels...the answer is delayed...so the question is.....
what is the reference of the received timespamp....the 1Hz PPS pulse before?

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: Andy Watson on October 04, 2014, 02:15:31 pm
The message precedes the time mark.

Page 10, and a diagram on page 11. "The relationship between the UTC Time Mark Pulse Output message and the TMARK pulse is shown in Figure 8. When the receiver’s serial data communication port is set to 9600 bps, the UTC Time Mark Pulse Output message precedes the TMARK pulse by 400 to 500 ms (typically)."

Edit: Seems that the forum software won't allow pdfs to be mixed-in with the message text. See the document below:
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 04, 2014, 02:35:23 pm
Ah okay.....gonna check with my DSO if this is also true for this command sending every second date, time and satellite information:

Code: [Select]
echo -ne '@@Ea\x01\x25\x0D\x0A' > /dev/ttyUSB0

Together with the 10kHz output it would then be possible to display date/time with 0.00001sec resolution (o;

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: Andy Watson on October 04, 2014, 02:44:50 pm
According to the datasheet, the rising edge of the 1 second marker pulse is within 300nS of UTC time.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 04, 2014, 03:38:55 pm
Hmm..timing looks different on the TU60 module:

Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 04, 2014, 05:45:35 pm
This is my current prototype btw....missing the front panel with PIC controller and 2 * 8 digit, 16 segment LED display for the retro look (o;

BTW: Is it safe to have the GND of the BNC outputs all tied together? Or is it more common practice to use output transformer for galvanic isolation between measurment equipments?
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: SeanB on October 04, 2014, 06:17:33 pm
Most of the time all outputs are commoned ground wise, unless you have an isolation transformer to give an isolated output ( works for sine wave over a limited range only) or use isolated power supplies and a separate generator for each stage, with the trigger and sync pulses along with a defined clock fed in via some isolated method.
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 07, 2014, 09:27:50 am
Hooked up now a PIC18F4550 to do the date/time decoding and display it on a HP HDSP-2111 LED matrix display...not the cheapest solution...but a quick one (o;

WHen I compare now the output of the Jupiter-T GPS module to an online atomic clock service, the GPS clock is always one seconds behind...
Title: Re: Universal counter recommendation, HP5335A
Post by: davorin on October 11, 2014, 08:34:42 pm
Seems /www.ko4bb.com site is back online :-))

IIRC I saw somewhere a post regarding a version 1.1 rom image...but on this site only 1.0 is available...
Some has the 1.1 version image available or a pointer to it?