Author Topic: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830  (Read 7439 times)

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Online dr.diesel

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Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« on: September 30, 2015, 04:37:19 pm »
Just received this email.  Although I'm fairly critical of Rigol these days, I could use a mediacore signal gen if it's priced right.  Looks like more info next week.

The DSG800 Delivers:

9kHz - 3GHz Output Frequency
Max Output +20dBm
Standard ,2ppm Clock (opt 5ppb available)
AM/FM/?M Modulation
Optional Pulse Modulation/Pulse Train Generator

Offline thewyliestcoyote

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 05:50:26 pm »
I just received the same email. I am very interested but it is a shame there is not a 6 GHz option. That is a maybe a deal killer for me.

I am going to hold my breath until they give more specs.
 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2015, 07:44:04 pm »
More details are up on Rigol UK's web site:
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/Rigol-DSG815-RF-Signal-Generator-p/dsg815.htm

Looks like Rigol is going for a US$2000 price point.

Edit: The link to the DSG800 series, including DSG830
http://www.rigol-uk.co.uk/category-s/2031.htm
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 07:47:28 pm by chicken »
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2015, 08:25:03 pm »

Offline MisterBiscuit

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 02:41:54 pm »
Is it me or does this look like it might be an upgraded version of the DSA800's tracking gen in a box?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 03:02:22 pm »
Just received this email.  Although I'm fairly critical of Rigol these days, I could use a mediacore signal gen if it's priced right. 

Why not go for a second hand Agilent ESG or R&S SME/SMIQ instead? There are many around so prices are pretty low, and they all offer better specs.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 05:28:17 pm »
Why not go for a second hand Agilent ESG or R&S SME/SMIQ instead? There are many around so prices are pretty low, and they all offer better specs.

I was hoping for something half decent, but in a small form factor,  :-[

Offline TomThomas

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2015, 06:24:35 pm »
I just received the same email. I am very interested but it is a shame there is not a 6 GHz option. That is a maybe a deal killer for me.

I am going to hold my breath until they give more specs.

If you need 6GHz there is also a DSG3000 which offers 3 or 6GHz

I saw both gens at the EuMW in Paris last month.

The DSG800 has the same chassis as the DG1000Z.

DSG815 - 1880€ plus VAT
DSG830 - 3380€ plus VAT

official specs are here http://www.meilhaus.de/fileadmin/upload/pdf/Datasheets_english/Rigol/Rigol_DSG800.pdf
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2015, 06:58:05 pm »
Why not go for a second hand Agilent ESG or R&S SME/SMIQ instead? There are many around so prices are pretty low, and they all offer better specs.

I was hoping for something half decent, but in a small form factor,  :-[

If you can live with 3GHz and aren't in a hurry then this could be an option:

http://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/SM300_dat_en.pdf

Small size, similar specs as the Rigol, and often go for not much money.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2015, 07:06:12 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 03:45:27 pm »
Rigol just announced updates to their DSG800 line:
- New models with 2.1 and 3.6 GHz max frequency
- DSG800A models with IQ modulation
https://www.rigolna.com/news/2019/00003509/
https://www.rigolna.com/products/rf-signal-generators/dsg800/

It would be interesting to see how different they look internally. The DSG815 already had connectors labelled with IQ and IQ CLK, hinting at IQ functionality as a hardware option.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/23293853985/in/album-72157661062178650/

« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 03:49:46 pm by chicken »
 
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Online TurboTom

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2020, 03:48:12 pm »
Since the discussion on Siglent's counterpart to this generator turned into the direction of evaluating in how far an I/Q modulator "hack" could be possible, and the DSG800A series offers much more functionality than Siglent's products (internal baseband generator), I decided to take a closer look at Dave's teardown photos of the DSG815.

It's actually quite amazing how simple the operational principle of this generator is. As always, the difficulty is located in the details. Generally speaking, the DSG800 works in the upper frequency range (probably >300MHz) as a plain PLL VFO with several, switchable frequency dividers and a whole bunch of configurable low pass / band pass filters. The whole unit is full of switching diodes and non-reflective switches (HMC284). The first LO is split into three ranges and is almost a carbon copy of the corresponding section of the DSA815 spectrum analyzer. The reference frequency for the HMC704 PLL is generated by an AD9781 DAC (and not as I initially mistakenly indicated in my scheme, supplied directly from the 10MHz reference oscillator). This way, frequency and phase modulation is possible. The second channel of the DAC is used to generate the LF output signal. The DAC clock is supplied by the highly stable Z-COMM CRO3640B-LF VCO (3.64GHz), controlled by an ADF4106 PLL, divided by eight, hence it's 405MHz 455MHz (already forgot how to properly divide by two... |O).

To generate lower frequencies, a minicircuits ADE-12MH mixer is used to mix the 1LO output with 910MHz from the aforementioned synthesizer.

In my scheme, I used orange for the signal path on the visible side and magenta to approximately show what's going on on the hidden side of the PCB. I may have missed a filter or two on the hidden side, but the working principle should be covered failry accurately.

It gets obvious that the I/Q add-on board contains more circuitry than just a few ESD ptotection devices and some interconnections, it's got to contain the complete I/Q modulator, and as it seems also considerable circuitry to generate the I/Q baseband signal. So no easy hack, if possible at all...

But a possibly more interesting conclusion on the circuitry may be that it should be possible to output much higher frequencies than 1.5GHz since it's possible to route the oscillator signal trough the instrument without passing any frequency divider. Moreover, all the semiconductors used should be able to handle up to approx. 4GHz (I didn't believe that initially before I did the reverse engineering). So we may actually be up to a surprise if we compare this 1.5GHz version to one of the higher-frequency specimen of that model range... Another amazing detail: The PA is a NPTB00004A, capable of >5W at 4GHz!

So I'ld say this unit contains a very good hardware and there may actually be a chance for "improvement" of the entry models. What kind of calibration would be necessary afterwards is written on a different page, though...  ???
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 07:30:08 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2020, 03:56:30 pm »
So I'ld say this unit contains a very good hardware and there may actually be a chance for "improvement" of the entry models. What kind of calibration would be necessary afterwards is written on a different page, though...  ???

This usually means  ;D for everyone and  |O for me!     :popcorn:

We definitely need a specimen to do some testing.
 
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Online TurboTom

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2020, 04:02:44 pm »
This usually means  ;D for everyone and  |O for me!     :popcorn:

We definitely need a specimen to do some testing.

Yes I know ... Sorry for that  ;)

But I cannot get rid of the impression that you consider it as some kind of sport...  8)
 
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Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2020, 06:01:28 pm »
I dug into the firmware last spring after I bought a DSG815 in a clearance sale. I think 3 GHz (DSG830) is just a software option. There are a lot of inert debug strings in the code that should help with reversing.

A few random snippets from my notes:

Model code name is DORY.

Shortly after boot the firmware checks configuration variables to determine the model. There's also a mystery file (E:\\LqepdclquJ.txt) whose content is checked for certain operations, for example to enter MANAGER and FACTORY modes (IIRC via the :PRIVate:SOFT:MODE SCPI command). I reversed the content of the file by emulating the firmware, but I haven't tried whether the putting it on a USB stick does anything.

The SSP SCPI commands may be for communication with the FPGA controlling the RF hardware.

RTOS is MQX 3.7 with MFS 3.0.0 and lwIP of unknown version.

Compile options for MQX likely were:
MQX_CHECK_MEMORY_ALLOCATION_ERRORS
MQX_EXIT_ENABLED
MQX_MONITOR_STACK
MQX_TD_HAS_STACK_LIMIT
MQX_USE_COMPONENTS
MQX_USE_IDLE_TASK
MQX_USE_INTERRUPTS
MQX_USE_MEM
MQX_USE_UNCACHED_MEM
PSP_HAS_DATA_CACHE
PSP_HAS_SUPPORT_STRUCT
PSP_STACK_ALIGNMENT = 0x1f

Attached my notes to extract the firmware binaries from firmware upgrade files.
Attached my notes about the mystery file.
Attached the full list of SCPI commands extracted from the 00.01.06.00.01 firmware image.
 
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Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2020, 06:09:47 pm »
PS: And here my notes about loading extracted firmware binaries with Ghidra and radare2

fw-vectors-0x00000000.bin
ARM vector table, loaded to 0x0

fw-app-0x40000000.bin
ARMv5t 32bit application code, loaded to 0x40000000

Code entry point: 0x4022004c

Loading into Ghidra:
Create new project
Open CodeBrowser
Import file: fw-vectors, architecture ARMv5/T little endian, location 0, name vectors (don't analyze)
Add to program: fw-app, location 0x40000000, name app (ALT-I)
Disassemble at 0 (F11)

Loading into r2:
r2 -a arm -b 32 -m 0x40000000 ./fw-app-0x40000000.bin
e anal.ignbithints=true
o ./fw-vectors-0x00000000.bin 0x0 rwx

PM me if you want a copy of my Ghidra project.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 06:13:21 pm by chicken »
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2020, 06:24:26 pm »
Attached my notes to extract the firmware binaries from firmware upgrade files.
Attached my notes about the mystery file.
Attached the full list of SCPI commands extracted from the 00.01.06.00.01 firmware image.

Chicken, thanks for the files. I've also done a preliminary look and have a FW parser.

I'll try to check your conclusions with my notes of Rigol FW.

SCPI command list has been here for sometime. Did you crosscheck?
 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2020, 06:34:43 pm »
I wasn't aware of that thread. The only difference is :SYSTem:PRESet (620, 0x4016cdd8, :SYSTem:PRESet, Programming Guide) which is missing in your list.

 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2020, 07:35:56 pm »
It gets obvious that the I/Q add-on board contains more circuitry than just a few ESD ptotection devices and some interconnections, it's got to contain the complete I/Q modulator, and as it seems also considerable circuitry to generate the I/Q baseband signal. So no easy hack, if possible at all...

Does anyone have pictures of the IQ board?

Another, simpler DIY project would be a 10 MHz OCXO. The edge connector looks easy enough to interface with and I didn't see anything that indicates a license key to enable this option. Again, anyone got pictures of the official OXCO?
 

Online TurboTom

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2020, 08:08:11 pm »
A DIY internal OCXO would surely be a nice project but since the DSG has got an input for an external reference supply, the same or better performance can be achieved by just hooking up an external GPSDO which is inexpensively available or an atomic reference oscillator (also once in a while available at a bargain second hand).
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 08:17:08 pm »
Does anyone have pictures of the IQ board?

Dave's HiRes photos are here.
 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 08:21:57 pm »
Does anyone have pictures of the IQ board?

Dave's HiRes photos are here.

Dave’s unit didn’t have the IQ board fitted.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 08:26:37 pm »
Dave’s unit didn’t have the IQ board fitted.

 |O My fault.
 

Offline tv84

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 09:16:31 pm »
Attached my notes to extract the firmware binaries from firmware upgrade files.

FW v00.01.06.00.01 parsing:
Code: [Select]
Offset     CRC32     Type  Size      Cont  Ref1      FTyp   Ref2
00000000 - 55469C59  sys0  00000278  dat0  00000002  DSG8A  00000001   [00000004-00000277]  CRC OK
00000278 - A8D35F6B  bin0  00000210  dat0  00000002  DSG8A  00000001   [0000027C-00000487]  CRC OK
00000488 - 196CF684  bin0  00047E9C  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0000048C-00048323]  CRC OK
00048324 - C87E57E1  rbf0  0005E802  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [00048328-000A6B25]  CRC OK
000A6B28 - 5BB89F1D  bin0  00177C90  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [000A6B2C-0021E7B7]  CRC OK
0021E7B8 - 1E8000CA  bin0  000B99FC  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0021E7BC-002D81B3]  CRC OK
002D81B4 - 0A378E85  sim0  002B7C95  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [002D81B8-0058FE48]  CRC OK
0058FE4C - ED06206E  bin0  00000046  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0058FE50-0058FE91]  CRC OK
0058FE94 - 8A912D43  bin0  00000045  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0058FE98-0058FED8]  CRC OK
------------------------- SYSTEM BLOCK --------------------------------------------
00000040 - FW Type: DSG8A
00000050 - Version(?): 00000001
00000054 - # Files: 8
           Offset    Type    Addr(?)   Size      Flags     Filename
00000058 - 00000278  Index   06100000  00000210  00002800  index.bin             [000002B8-00000487]
0000009C - 00000488  Setup   06F80000  00047E9C  00100000  DORY_XML.bin          [000004C8-00048323]
000000E0 - 00048324  Fpga    06900000  0005E802  00080000  vmu.rbf               [00048364-000A6B25]
00000124 - 000A6B28  Res     06D80000  00177C90  00200000  ResData.bin           [000A6B68-0021E7B7]
00000168 - 0021E7B8  Fpga    06800000  000B99FC  00100000  dory_wrapper.bin      [0021E7F8-002D81B3]
000001AC - 002D81B4  DspPro  06200000  002B7C95  00500000  DoryApplication.sim   [002D81F4-0058FE48]
000001F0 - 0058FE4C  FirEra  06B00039  00000046  00000050  FirstErase.bin        [0058FE8C-0058FE91]  RIGOL
00000234 - 0058FE94  ver     06B00022  00000045  00200000  Version.bin           [0058FED4-0058FED8]  00.01.06.00.01


FW v00.01.07.00.06 parsing:
Code: [Select]
Offset     CRC32     Type  Size      Cont  Ref1      FTyp   Ref2
00000000 - 09572EBC  sys0  00000278  dat0  00000002  DSG8A  00000001   [00000004-00000277]  CRC OK
00000278 - 1B2487B9  bin0  00000210  dat0  00000002  DSG8A  00000001   [0000027C-00000487]  CRC OK
00000488 - 140DF4A7  bin0  00049D5E  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0000048C-0004A1E5]  CRC OK
0004A1E8 - C87E57E1  rbf0  0005E802  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0004A1EC-000A89E9]  CRC OK
000A89EC - 42A9907B  bin0  00176070  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [000A89F0-0021EA5B]  CRC OK
0021EA5C - 95EABB13  bin0  000B9DD3  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [0021EA60-002D882E]  CRC OK
002D8830 - 1002AE08  sim0  002B7A11  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [002D8834-00590240]  CRC OK
00590244 - ED06206E  bin0  00000046  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [00590248-00590289]  CRC OK
0059028C - 1537D2D7  bin0  00000045  dat0  00000001  DSG8A  00000003   [00590290-005902D0]  CRC OK
------------------------- SYSTEM BLOCK --------------------------------------------
00000040 - FW Type: DSG8A
00000050 - Version(?): 00000002
00000054 - # Files: 8
           Offset    Type    Addr(?)   Size      Flags     Filename
00000058 - 00000278  Index   06100000  00000210  00002800  index.bin             [000002B8-00000487]
0000009C - 00000488  Setup   06F80000  00049D5E  00100000  DORY_XML.bin          [000004C8-0004A1E5]
000000E0 - 0004A1E8  Fpga    06900000  0005E802  00080000  vmu.rbf               [0004A228-000A89E9]
00000124 - 000A89EC  Res     06D80000  00176070  00200000  ResData.bin           [000A8A2C-0021EA5B]
00000168 - 0021EA5C  Fpga    06800000  000B9DD3  00100000  dory_wrapper.bin      [0021EA9C-002D882E]
000001AC - 002D8830  DspPro  06200000  002B7A11  00500000  DoryApplication.sim   [002D8870-00590240]
000001F0 - 00590244  FirEra  06B00039  00000046  00000050  FirstErase.bin        [00590284-00590289]  RIGOL
00000234 - 0059028C  ver     06B00022  00000045  00200000  Version.bin           [005902CC-005902D0]  00.01.07.00.06

EDIT: I added a little more detail to make things clearer.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:23:33 am by tv84 »
 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 09:48:55 pm »
Attached my notes to extract the firmware binaries from firmware upgrade files.

Example of a .SYS FW parsing (don't have here the version...):
Code: [Select]
00000000 - Header CRC32: 55469C59  [00000004-00000277]  CRC OK
00000018 - File Type: DSG8A
00000050 - Version: 00000001
00000054 - # Sections: 8
Offset    StartAdr  Type      LoadAddr  Size                Filename
00000058  00000278  Index     06100000  00000210  00002800  index.bin             [00000278-00000487]
0000009C  00000488  Setup     06F80000  00047E9C  00100000  DORY_XML.bin          [00000488-00048323]
000000E0  00048324  Fpga      06900000  0005E802  00080000  vmu.rbf               [00048324-000A6B25]
00000124  000A6B28  Res       06D80000  00177C90  00200000  ResData.bin           [000A6B28-0021E7B7]
00000168  0021E7B8  Fpga      06800000  000B99FC  00100000  dory_wrapper.bin      [0021E7B8-002D81B3]
000001AC  002D81B4  DspPro    06200000  002B7C95  00500000  DoryApplication.sim   [002D81B4-0058FE48]
000001F0  0058FE4C  FirEra    06B00039  00000046  00000050  FirstErase.bin        [0058FE4C-0058FE91]
00000234  0058FE94  ver       06B00022  00000045  00200000  Version.bin           [0058FE94-0058FED8]

Looks like I got a different version of the firmware file. For example the size of DoryApplication.sim is 0x2b7be4 in mine.

I downloaded version 00.01.06.00.01 in April 2019, though the link in my notes is now broken.

The current version available at https://www.rigolna.com/firmware/ is 00.01.07.

 

Offline chicken

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Re: Upcoming Rigol DSG815/830
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2020, 09:57:10 pm »
Re IQ modulator: I think the IQ modulator option only became available recently with the release of the newer generation DSG821/836. The release notes for firmware version 00.01.07 dated 2019-09-05 include "Add DSG800A series, A model supports IQ function"

I wonder if there is a hardware issue in the DSG815/830 that prevented Rigol from offering of the IQ option for those.
 


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