Author Topic: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?  (Read 22945 times)

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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Does anybody know, if you can buy the oscillator module as a spare part (P/N, cost?) and is it sufficient to swap the modules?
Or is additional configuration change requided?

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 12:50:53 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2016, 01:25:59 pm »
It require new motherboard.
You needs to replace 53220-66111 ($1808) with 53220-66112 ($1929).
So external reference ( like use rubidium will be much cheaper ).
Or open instrument and check what is missing.
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2016, 02:12:31 pm »
It require new motherboard.
You needs to replace 53220-66111 ($1808) with 53220-66112 ($1929).
Thanks for your reply.

That's not, what I expected. On old 53131A replacing the oscillator module did the job, nothing else required.

On 53220A mainboard a standard 4-pin-quartz-oscillator is implemented (DIL footprint).
But there is an additional empty footprint for a bigger oscillator module (19x19mm=3/4x3/4", 5 pins).
So changing the module is a possible way to go?

Any pictures of an Opt. 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase available?

So external reference ( like use rubidium will be much cheaper ).
Do you know a "cheap" rubidium standard with calibration certificate?

The counters will be installed in production ATE - not in the calibration lab, where an existing external frequency reference could be used.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 02:25:46 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2016, 02:27:39 pm »
Try to contact Agilent, in manual they are no so strict and maybe they will populate the OCXO instead of board swap.
Manual says :  order 53200U-010.
If you needs certificate I cannot help you.

 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2016, 02:49:35 pm »
I have a 53220A without OCXO and the drift was horrible but an upgrade was expensive.
Actually, I got a 53230A with installed OCXO for less money than then upgrade of the 53220A.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2016, 02:55:42 pm »
I have a 53220A without OCXO and the drift was horrible but an upgrade was expensive.
Actually, I got a 53230A with installed OCXO for less money than then upgrade of the 53220A.
Can you post a picture of the OCXO and its footprint on PCB, please?
 
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2016, 02:59:17 pm »
You can get Trimble GPSDOs on eBay for < $150 with antenna, at least in the US.
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2016, 03:22:59 pm »
We cannot install separate GPS antennas for each production ATE using a 53220A.

So rubidium maybe an alternative...

But:
I looked at the 53200A mainboard a little bit closer.

There are 3 jumpers (0-Ohm chip resistors) with instruction nearby:
"Remove R827 and R828 when installing Y800".
Looked at the other side of PCB, and the bigger oscillator footprint is named "Y800" - tada!

So I try to find a parts list to identify P/N of Y800... :)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 03:25:56 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2016, 03:33:49 pm »
Try to contact Agilent, in manual they are no so strict and maybe they will populate the OCXO instead of board swap.
Manual says :  order 53200U-010.
If you needs certificate I cannot help you.
OK, found it in the component level manual:

"Retrofitting to Option 010 (Ultra-High Stability Timebase) must
be performed by technicians at a Keysight Technologies Service
Center. Refer to the list of Keysight Sales and Service offices in
the Appendix for the office closest to you.
NOTE To order the Ultra-High Stability Option 010, you will need to
place an order with Keysight for 53200U-010 and identify
which counter you have (53210A, 53220A, or 53230A)."

Those cowards don't want to sell the OCXO as a spare part?  :-//
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 04:14:39 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline plesa

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2016, 03:48:31 pm »
Try to contact Agilent, in manual they are no so strict and maybe they will populate the OCXO instead of board swap.
Manual says :  order 53200U-010.
If you needs certificate I cannot help you.
OK, found it in the component level manual:

"Retrofitting to Option 010 (Ultra-High Stability Timebase) must
be performed by technicians at a Keysight Technologies Service
Center. Refer to the list of Keysight Sales and Service offices in
the Appendix for the office closest to you.
NOTE To order the Ultra-High Stability Option 010, you will need to
place an order with Keysight for 53200U-010 and identify
which counter you have (53210A, 53220A, or 53230A)."

Those cowards don't want to sell the OXCO as a spare part?  :-//

BTW Rubidium has poor short term stability and better longterm stability and OCXO has better short term and worse long term. So check what you needs.
Question is if you really needs certificate I do not think KS as default providing any certificate and calibration will be additional fee.
Do you know Timelab software?
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2016, 03:58:29 pm »
I have a 53220A without OCXO and the drift was horrible but an upgrade was expensive.
Actually, I got a 53230A with installed OCXO for less money than then upgrade of the 53220A.
Can you post a picture of the OCXO and its footprint on PCB, please?
Both of  my counters are still under warranty and have Keysight calibration stickers.
I am hesitant to remove them.
May be I will try Dave's way of removing them in a safe way, when I am back in my lab tomorrow.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2016, 04:09:08 pm »
Question is if you really needs certificate I do not think KS as default providing any certificate and calibration will be additional fee.
I'm not quite sure about.
Maybe changing the OCXO to a 3rd-party part and calibrating the counter with tolerances of the original Opt. 010 is sufficiant. 2000 bucks for upgrading is "just a little bit" too expensive for my understanding...

Main purpose of the 53220A counters is adjustment of clocks.

Do you know Timelab software?
No. It's not a laboratory application, so how could this software help anyway?
« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 04:13:35 pm by carl_lab »
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2016, 04:11:03 pm »
Both of  my counters are still under warranty and have Keysight calibration stickers.
I am hesitant to remove them.
May be I will try Dave's way of removing them in a safe way, when I am back in my lab tomorrow.
Oh, please don't do it!
I don't want to be responsible, if you lose your warranty.
 
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Offline nfmax

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2016, 04:15:11 pm »
It looks like these counters have a reference frequency input. Can you not use an external reference source, with suitable calibration certificate? This could be almost anything with a sufficiently stable oscillator and a reference output. You might need to use a distribution amplifier, depending on the cable lengths, but for just two inputs a power splitter should be OK.
 
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Offline lukier

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2016, 04:22:48 pm »
We cannot install separate GPS antennas for each production ATE using a 53220A.

Sounds extravagant, I think typically you would have one GPSDO for the facility and then a distribution amplifier to spread the 10 MHz around to the counters.
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2016, 04:40:19 pm »
I think typically you would have one GPSDO for the facility and then a distribution amplifier to spread the 10 MHz around to the counters.
You're right, that's the better way of course, but I think installation of an antenna on roof of the production hall will not be allowed whilst other alternatives are possible (rubidium?).
 
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Offline nfmax

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2016, 04:50:59 pm »
We use a lot of GPS aerials here, mounted inside a typical industrial estate metal-clad building with plastic roof light panels. Presumably enough signal makes it through the polycarbonate (?) panels to make it work. We use GPS to control the time-of-day clocks on the data acquisition systems we make, so we need the 'real thing' for testing, not just a GPSDO.
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2016, 04:58:42 pm »
,...
Main purpose of the 53220A counters is adjustment of vehicle clocks (dashboard instruments).
....

Hi, for which company are you working?

Frank
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2016, 07:09:35 pm »
I think typically you would have one GPSDO for the facility and then a distribution amplifier to spread the 10 MHz around to the counters.
You're right, that's the better way of course, but I think installation of an antenna on roof of the production hall will not be allowed whilst other alternatives are possible (rubidium?).

I think, for that purpose, an internal or external OCXO is fully sufficient, Rb or GPSDO is overkill.
Requirement for the uncertainty of this clock adjustment is on the order of 0.1ppm. Maybe a frequently calibrated TCXO will also do the job.
This can easily be done by means of a GPSDO, but in the cal lab, where it belongs to.
Does your company have a lack of budget, as such an instrument w/o proper OCXO had been ordered?  |O

Frank

 
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Offline plesa

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2016, 11:09:46 pm »
I just tried to disassemble unit (stickers are not problem, they are not brittle) but the OCXO is below RF module :-// So sorry I will not remove it.
Like other mentioned only R854 0R resistor is placed on bottom. Module footprint is really small.




 
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Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2016, 11:49:40 pm »
In this case I'd suggest no personal modifications, in some obscure innocent you could be liable if something went wrong.  If this is something you need for production, order the correct instrument or use a proper external timebase.
 
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Offline Vgkid

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2016, 03:16:10 am »
I will agree wit Dr. Diesel, though you could always make a small enclosure and mount a small ocxo inside of that. Though with the dip 14 sized ocxo's you could easily breadboard one inside of the unit...
If you own any North Hills Electronics gear, message me. L&N Fan
 
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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2016, 09:33:03 am »
OK, Plesa was right, these stickers come off very easily, so, what is life without a risk.

Here are some pictures of my 53230A with all options installed
It seems the UOCXO is hiding well.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
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Offline SoundTech-LG

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2016, 05:35:16 pm »
Nice photos.
Use my TCXO equipped 53230A with EXT Ref Rubidium, or GPSDO...
 
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Offline carl_labTopic starter

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Re: Upgrading Counter 53220A to Option 010 Ultra High-stability OCXO Timebase?
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2016, 06:56:36 am »
Thanks for the photos.

As I supposed bigger footprint is used for (U)OCXO, inner one for standard quartz oscillator.



Could you be so kind trying to look at the (U)OCXO for identifying maker and type?
(I don't know if removing  removing RF module is required)

« Last Edit: November 29, 2016, 04:12:43 pm by carl_lab »
 
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