Author Topic: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)  (Read 90893 times)

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Offline hs3

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2016, 12:11:52 pm »
The Frontpanel is actually connected via the Lecroy PCI controller card, so there's no USB involved. I think i figured out the registers, but haven't had a chance to write a new driver so far.
Thank you for the correction. I just realized that in the WaveRunner 6K series the frontpanel is connected using USB and I must have thought they would be done in a similar way.

Quote
My WavePro actually seems to have a HW issue - as soon as Sample Memory goes above 1MS, the trace misses half of the Data. This happens on all Channels. It also happened with the original Mainboard/CPU/Software, so it can't be caused by the upgrade. Attached a few pictures, if anyone has an idea where to look for that Problem let me know.
When you did the motherboard swap have you had a look and taken pictures of the acquisition board? Just wondering in general how the sample memory etc. is arranged.
 

Offline dxl

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2016, 08:01:45 pm »
The Frontpanel is actually connected via the Lecroy PCI controller card, so there's no USB involved. I think i figured out the registers, but haven't had a chance to write a new driver so far.
Thank you for the correction. I just realized that in the WaveRunner 6K series the frontpanel is connected using USB and I must have thought they would be done in a similar way.
Ok, don't know about other LeCroy scopes - it's actually the first LeCroy Scope i have.
Quote
My WavePro actually seems to have a HW issue - as soon as Sample Memory goes above 1MS, the trace misses half of the Data. This happens on all Channels. It also happened with the original Mainboard/CPU/Software, so it can't be caused by the upgrade. Attached a few pictures, if anyone has an idea where to look for that Problem let me know.
When you did the motherboard swap have you had a look and taken pictures of the acquisition board? Just wondering in general how the sample memory etc. is arranged.

I had a look at the Acquisition Board, but the Sample Memory and the ADC are covered by one big Heatsink which i didn't want to take off. So i have no idea how the board actually looks like.

I added some pictures how i connected the TFT display to a normal DVI port (insted of the i865 DVO port). It was basically removing the Sil164 and soldering the DVI wires directly to the signal lanes.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 08:06:43 pm by dxl »
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2016, 09:00:44 am »
Ok, don't know about other LeCroy scopes - it's actually the first LeCroy Scope i have.
Can't say I would have much experience with them either. Never seen a WaveRunner in person, just seen some documents that showed the USB frontpanel connection which led me to incorrectly think it may have been done the same way in these WavePros.

I had a look at the Acquisition Board, but the Sample Memory and the ADC are covered by one big Heatsink which i didn't want to take off. So i have no idea how the board actually looks like.
Yes, understood. The lack of visibility to that area is probably why I didn't remember what it looks like there either.

You mentioned that the problem happens after 1MS. This is with all 4 channels on? What if you only enable 2 channels? Channels 2 and 3 I think so that they work at 20GS/s and there is only 2 channels available. Does it still happen after 1MS?

It was my understanding that channels 1 and 2 are their own group and channels 3 and 4 another group. And that they would be quite independent. So it's interesting that the issue seems to affect all channels. That might give some clues about what could be causing the issue or at least what shouldn't be causing it.

I added some pictures how i connected the TFT display to a normal DVI port (insted of the i865 DVO port). It was basically removing the Sil164 and soldering the DVI wires directly to the signal lanes.
That's interesting use of the DVI interface on the LeCroy board if I interpreted it correctly based on that picture.

Parallel data in -> DVI transmitter -> a few centimeters of traces on the PCB -> DVI receiver -> Parallel data output again
 

Offline dxl

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #28 on: June 05, 2016, 07:24:31 pm »
Quote
You mentioned that the problem happens after 1MS. This is with all 4 channels on? What if you only enable 2 channels? Channels 2 and 3 I think so that they work at 20GS/s and there is only 2 channels available. Does it still happen after 1MS?

It was my understanding that channels 1 and 2 are their own group and channels 3 and 4 another group. And that they would be quite independent. So it's interesting that the issue seems to affect all channels. That might give some clues about what could be causing the issue or at least what shouldn't be causing it.

It happens on all channels at the same time, no matter how many channels i have enabled. It always happens with Sample Lengths >1MS.
I added some pictures how i connected the TFT display to a normal DVI port (insted of the i865 DVO port). It was basically removing the Sil164 and soldering the DVI wires directly to the signal lanes.
That's interesting use of the DVI interface on the LeCroy board if I interpreted it correctly based on that picture.

Parallel data in -> DVI transmitter -> a few centimeters of traces on the PCB -> DVI receiver -> Parallel data output again
[/quote]

It's a bit different as the Bus from the Motherboard is 12 bits wide while the TFT has 6 Bits per color channel. So electrically they are not the same.
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2016, 08:56:12 pm »
Quote
That's interesting use of the DVI interface on the LeCroy board if I interpreted it correctly based on that picture.

Parallel data in -> DVI transmitter -> a few centimeters of traces on the PCB -> DVI receiver -> Parallel data output again

It's a bit different as the Bus from the Motherboard is 12 bits wide while the TFT has 6 Bits per color channel. So electrically they are not the same.

Ah yes that makes sense. I guess the data coming from the motherboard is 12 bit dual clock/edge as used with these sometimes and then output to TFT panel typical single clock 24/18 bit so the DVI transmitter and receiver are used to convert between these to have suitable signals for the panel.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2016, 05:37:03 am »
My WavePro actually seems to have a HW issue - as soon as Sample Memory goes above 1MS, the trace misses half of the Data. This happens on all Channels. It also happened with the original Mainboard/CPU/Software, so it can't be caused by the upgrade. Attached a few pictures, if anyone has an idea where to look for that Problem let me know.

That's very likely a defective PCI controller board, although it could also be a problem with the Autonomous Acquisition Controller on the acq mainboard.

All assuming you didn't change any settings in the locked service/development sections of the interface, which can cause errors like these.

When you did the motherboard swap have you had a look and taken pictures of the acquisition board? Just wondering in general how the sample memory etc. is arranged.

The acq system contains a mainboard with four 10GSa/s ADC & Memory cards, each containing six interleaved ADCs, 24MB of memory, and a 1.25Gbps Ethernet interface.

The PCI card has three 1.25Gbps Ethernet interfaces, one for ADC & Memory Cards 1 and 3, another one for ADC & Memory Cards 2 and 4, and a third one for the Autonomous Acquisition Controller. It also has an I2C interface for the front panel, and passes through the power switch to the mainboard and standby LED signal to the ProBus I/F card, and controls reset (pressing 'Clear Sweep', 'Multi-Zoom' and 'Auto Setup' buttons simultaneously sends a reset to the mainboard). In addition, there's also a RS232 interface (used for the touch screen).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2016, 05:41:13 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline dxl

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2016, 08:14:00 am »
My WavePro actually seems to have a HW issue - as soon as Sample Memory goes above 1MS, the trace misses half of the Data. This happens on all Channels. It also happened with the original Mainboard/CPU/Software, so it can't be caused by the upgrade. Attached a few pictures, if anyone has an idea where to look for that Problem let me know.

That's very likely a defective PCI controller board, although it could also be a problem with the Autonomous Acquisition Controller on the acq mainboard.

All assuming you didn't change any settings in the locked service/development sections of the interface, which can cause errors like these.

It's definitely not caused by any changes in the Service section - the error was there before i even figured out the codes. However, the Problem disappeared during the last two days - maybe it's temperature related. Temperatures are a bit higher during the last days - feels a bit more like summer ;)

Thanks for the details about how the aquisition works, very interesting.

What i find a bit strange is that the LeCroy doesn't complain that some selftest fails - from the HP/Agilent/Keysight and Tektronix gear i have i'm used to the fact the Selftests are failing way before there's actually some visible Problem on the Measurement results. Is there some Kind of extended selftest on these devices? I didn't found any so far in the menus. But maybe i was just looking in the wrong place.

Regards
Sven
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2016, 08:22:35 am »

That's very likely a defective PCI controller board, although it could also be a problem with the Autonomous Acquisition Controller on the acq mainboard.


I was able to find couple older pictures of the PCI board. Unfortunately no single focused photo but these three photos should cover different areas.

Looks like there is

Xilinx FPGA as the main controller

2 pcs IS61LPS51218A 9 Mbit SRAM
http://www.issi.com/WW/pdf/61VPS_LPS25636A_51218A.pdf

3 pcs HDMP-1636A SerDes ICs
http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet2/d/0kjuo0ocrr7jp8l3l6ayhkyod0fy.pdf

LPC47N227 IO controller
ftp://ftp.smsc.com/pub/Data_Briefs/47n227db.pdf

No idea how the RAM is actually used here but looks like there is two about 1 MB RAM chips which could be about the same as the 1 MS limit for the problem. Probably quite far fetched idea.
 

Offline hs3

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2016, 08:27:01 am »
feels a bit more like summer ;)
And if using that LeCroy in a not so big room it probably helps with that feeling too ;)
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2016, 05:48:45 pm »
Like that Agilent part on there.   

What's inside U17?
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
 

Online gslick

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2016, 06:49:10 pm »
it's been a few years since i wrote the last Windows driver (which was actually a device driver for the lecroy USB chief, which crashed my Windows XP system)

I'm curious about this. It's been a while since I used a USB Chief. I seem to remember the software and driver running fine on Windows XP at the time, but sometimes getting bugchecks when trying to run the same software and driver on Windows 7. I never spent any time trying to debug the root cause of the bugchecks.

Did you write a device driver for the USB Chief that was functionally equivalent to the CATC / LeCroy version and worked with the analyzer application? I imagine that must have been a significant reverse engineering effort to figure out the interfaces to both the USB Chief device and the analyzer application.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2016, 12:09:51 pm »
I got a first driver hack that both sets the LEDs correctly (also on Systems with Hyperthreading or multiple CPUS) and reads the Frontpanel Keys correctly. However, have to clean up the driver source to make a final driver. Right now almost no code is present for unloading the driver. But the Frontpanel already works much better with this driver compared to the original version.

Nice work  :-+   It would be great to finally enable Hyperthreading on my WP7300A.

Have you considered making your driver (once it's final) available to LeCroy? They might even include it in the regular X-Stream software updates.

BTW, in your upgrade endeavors, have you considered or even looked into replacing the pretty loud fans in the WavePro 7k? I'm contemplating looking into this on mine, as the noise level could really be a little bit lower.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2016, 06:13:37 pm »
BTW, in your upgrade endeavors, have you considered or even looked into replacing the pretty loud fans in the WavePro 7k? I'm contemplating looking into this on mine, as the noise level could really be a little bit lower.

No, i did not look into that yet because i don't have any knowledge how much cooling is required. I'm a bit afraid that something is overheating than if i reduce it too much.

I wasn't thinking of replacing the original fans with slower ones, but I'd guess that there might be some fans that push a similar amount of air while being a little less noisy than the (by now pretty worn) original fans.

Quote
But i have to agree that the noise level is insane. It's even louder than the Tektronix scopes i have, and i thought that's impossible :)

To be fair, it's not that I couldn't live with it (and the Keysight scopes at work are similarly noisy) but a little less would be nice.

On the other side, compared to the noise level my Anristu MS8609A Spectrum Analyzer emits (from a single fan!), the WP7k is almost silent  ;)
« Last Edit: June 22, 2016, 06:17:25 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2016, 10:13:27 am »
Another topic:

Do you (or someone else) know whether the I2C/UART/SPI decode options are available for WP7K scopes?

Of course it's available (as are over a dozen other standards ;) ). You're looking for the following product codes:

WP7K-UART-RS232bus
WP7K-I2Cbus
WP7K-SPIbus

« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:23:24 am by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2016, 09:43:32 pm »
Thanks. Just asking because i can't select the WavePro 7k for those options on the Lecroy site. Maybe that's because they're end of sale.

Pretty much, yes, although there are traces of the older options.

Frankly, the LeCroy website is a bit of a mess when it comes to the options. But the older WavePro 7k is similarly long as the current WavePro 7zi, a lot longer btw than what's listed on the WP7k(A) spec sheet  (I know, mine has almost all of the available options ;) ):




BTW, the WP7k can do up to four decodes in parallel.

Quote
How does that decode stuff usually work? You only get an option key from LeCroy, or do you also have to install some additional Software?

No, you give them the scope s/n and the scope ID, and they give you a software key in a similar format as a typical Windows Product Key.

All the software is in the LeCroy X-Stream package. There's no need to install any extra software.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 03:15:18 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline dxl

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2016, 03:20:18 pm »
Nice Screenshot  :o What is the menu path to show that screen? Means which menu do i have to open if i have some of these options installed?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2016, 04:50:09 pm »
Nice Screenshot  :o What is the menu path to show that screen? Means which menu do i have to open if i have some of these options installed?

Top menu: 'Analysis' -> 'Serial Decode...'
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2016, 05:52:48 pm »
It's very rare for a DDA to come with much else than the disk drive analysis package, and at I'm not sure they were even offered for them as DDAs were really special purpose scopes.
 

Offline AudioplatinumService

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #43 on: June 28, 2016, 09:59:48 pm »
Awesome work! Now you have really "open" scope  ;)


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Offline Simon

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2016, 06:46:46 pm »
I'm getting reports from a user who seems to claim they represent Lecroy objecting to the posting of material that contravenes their terms and conditions. Please can people check what they are posting make sure they are not posting anything that contravenes legal agreements they have signed up to by buying any equipment. I'm not sure where we stand by law but I think users would be directly responsible for what they post although we have our part in taking down any illegal material as and when we are notified of it I would assume not being in possession of a rulebook or being a legal expert.
 

Online lukier

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2016, 11:00:28 pm »
This is quite interesting. So what you are saying that when buying a piece of equipment I am signing a legal agreement? What about second hand market then? Isn't all that just US/DMCA thing?

I'll be looking for a more performant (than DS1054Z), preferably windows, used scope in a couple of months and this thread got me intrigued on WP7300A. Some time ago I had ScopeStation LS140, huge old MS-DOS beast, not very impressive specs by today's standards but I really liked the UI and the math. If LeCroy is putting a gag order then WP7300A won't be so valuable and I'll have to look elsewhere (e.g. TDS7104 or similar).
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2016, 05:40:54 am »
This is quite interesting. So what you are saying that when buying a piece of equipment I am signing a legal agreement? What about second hand market then? Isn't all that just US/DMCA thing?

This licensing thing and the validity of shrink-wrap licenses originated in the US, but over time this has been transformed into similar laws in other countries. In the EU, if you bought a scope then your only contract is with the seller, not with the manufacturer, and unless the seller has made them part of the contract (and explicitly highlighted them to you!) then EULA's or other terms and conditions of the manufacturer are invalid.

So it pretty much depends on where you are.

Having said that, if you then download a software update (i.e. a firmware update from the LeCroy website) you might have to agree to certain licensing terms, and unless these terms contradict current law in your country they become a valid agreement between you and the manufacturer, for that software you just downloaded.

Quote
I'll be looking for a more performant (than DS1054Z), preferably windows, used scope in a couple of months and this thread got me intrigued on WP7300A. Some time ago I had ScopeStation LS140, huge old MS-DOS beast, not very impressive specs by today's standards but I really liked the UI and the math. If LeCroy is putting a gag order then WP7300A won't be so valuable and I'll have to look elsewhere (e.g. TDS7104 or similar).

You can expect pretty much any big brand to make a fuss when details about their software key system for their current scopes get out (i.e. being able to generate codes, not just enabling options by permanently enabling trials). Keysight would probably send a lawyer attack squad if the code generation for current Infiniiums became public knowledge. How much of a legal standing they have is doubtful (especially outside the US), but you can be sure they would at least put their weight in the ring to dissuade attempts to make details about their software protection scheme public. Of course the point still stands that is someone can easily figure out how the key system works then others will, too, so becoming overly threatening is probably counter-productive for a manufacturer. Which I guess they know.

But a TDS7104, really?  Even without the ability to hack the WP7300A it is a much better scope. The TDS7k is slow, it only has a subset of the WavePro's functionality, and the options can't hold a candle against the ones for the WavePro. The TDS7k(B) is a typical ASIC architecture based on a weak processing platform (P3 Celeron 850MHz), and it's stuck with Windows 2000 where the WavePro 7kA runs XP which works with a lot more newer software (and the older WavePro 7k non-A which came out with W2k can easily be upgraded to XP, fully supported by LeCroy).

Oh, and the last firmware upgrade for the WavePro 7k(A) is dated 10 May 2016. The last firmware update for the TDS7kB is from 2005. Go figure.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2016, 06:26:48 am »
I'm only saying what is going on, if you think you are in the right go right ahead. I'm still waiting for the zero poster user who signed up to provide some credentials as to who they are. However it goes without saying that was is put on here stays forever.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2016, 07:09:12 am »
I'm only saying what is going on, if you think you are in the right go right ahead. I'm still waiting for the zero poster user who signed up to provide some credentials as to who they are. However it goes without saying that was is put on here stays forever.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong, just pointing out that the legal situation depends on where you're located.

Obviously for a public forum like this there's a lot more to consider, i.e. that everything posted here can and is read in other countries where some content might be illegal while where the poster lives its perfectly legal, so it's understandable you have to be on the cautious side. And you're right reminding that stuff that has been posted here stays here.

However, I can't see that anything incriminating has been posted, i.e. no methods, no descriptions, just a statement of some users that they somehow managed to hack the software options.

If that poster really turned out to be from LeCroy, maybe he can be convinced that engagement with the users here on a friendly basis is the best way forward?
 

Online lukier

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Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2016, 09:49:55 am »
You can expect pretty much any big brand to make a fuss when details about their software key system for their current scopes get out (i.e. being able to generate codes, not just enabling options by permanently enabling trials). Keysight would probably send a lawyer attack squad if the code generation for current Infiniiums became public knowledge. How much of a legal standing they have is doubtful (especially outside the US), but you can be sure they would at least put their weight in the ring to dissuade attempts to make details about their software protection scheme public. Of course the point still stands that is someone can easily figure out how the key system works then others will, too, so becoming overly threatening is probably counter-productive for a manufacturer. Which I guess they know.

You are right, but I always had the impression that manufacturers turn the blind eye if such hacking is for personal/hobbyist use (or for Rigol this is even marketing strategy :P). Hence plenty of threads on this forum on Tek's internal GPIB commands, options EEPROMs, Agilent's binary exe patches or USB booting etc. I wouldn't encourage such tricks in commercial environment and I doubt many people would. As a company you buy new scope, options and then expect good warranty and support.

But a TDS7104, really?  Even without the ability to hack the WP7300A it is a much better scope. The TDS7k is slow, it only has a subset of the WavePro's functionality, and the options can't hold a candle against the ones for the WavePro. The TDS7k(B) is a typical ASIC architecture based on a weak processing platform (P3 Celeron 850MHz), and it's stuck with Windows 2000 where the WavePro 7kA runs XP which works with a lot more newer software (and the older WavePro 7k non-A which came out with W2k can easily be upgraded to XP, fully supported by LeCroy).

Oh, and the last firmware upgrade for the WavePro 7k(A) is dated 10 May 2016. The last firmware update for the TDS7kB is from 2005. Go figure.

I know, that is why I got interested in LeCroy, they seemed to know the benefits of good PC platform integration in the scope early on (even the old MS-DOS ScopeStation). With dxl's fixed driver it might be even possible to upgrade the motherboard (to some i3/i5), as long as it has PCI slot (or maybe PCIe to PCI adapter) for the interfacing card, right? TDS7k is obviously not that good, has the custom motherboard (nasty) but often can be had really cheap on the second hand market. I was also looking at Agilent, things like 54845A, but in tradition with other Agilent scopes it has laughable amounts of memory.
 


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