Author Topic: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)  (Read 98977 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Converter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 193
  • Country: ua
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #300 on: March 06, 2019, 12:45:31 am »
Pictures look good, may I ask which LCD panel you use? Is it the original NL8060BC26 or did you find a mechanically matching LVDS display? And where/how do you attach to the video signal?
I use the NL10276BC20, which has similar housing drawings, like the NL8060BC26.
Add to this any standard video card and small scaler board, and after that you will no longer depend on a particular motherboard model.

To obtain an image from a video adapter, you can do the same as LeCroy did when producing the LW420

Or connect to the connector of the second video adapter port inside the device .

 

Offline ollopa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Country: 00
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #301 on: March 06, 2019, 05:23:20 am »
dxl driver only modify how to allocate resources in newer WXP/W7, but your driver hacked/fixed lecroy's driver's bug. its not a bug actually imho, its just it was designed for single core system, so a test on multicore system is out of question during the development, so a simple fix was not feasible when multicore is not in existence during the time.

I don't think that's 100% true.  DXL did create a new driver for the front panel to fix the multi-core issue, but I believe he removed some of his posts on the topic.  He posted three zip files to this thread and one of them did not have his version of the driver.  His fixes for the other drivers were just inf file changes but the front panel driver was original (the .sys file is different).

Perhaps some of the people having trouble are using the archive without his driver.

Multi-core / Multi-processor systems were in existence and supported by XP so it's not a problem of the technology not being in existence, but I agree that LeCroy only intended the driver for use on the single-core system it shipped with.
 

Offline ingowien

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: at
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #302 on: March 06, 2019, 09:32:07 am »
I don't think that's 100% true.  DXL did create a new driver for the front panel to fix the multi-core issue, but I believe he removed some of his posts on the topic.  He posted three zip files to this thread and one of them did not have his version of the driver.  His fixes for the other drivers were just inf file changes but the front panel driver was original (the .sys file is different).

That is correct, there have been different versions. At least with and without the COM port for the touch controller. The modified .inf file just replaces the way W2k/XP handled multi function drivers with the newer VaryingResourceMap. And some might have been with the replaced AladdinFrontPanelDrv.
I've got three versions on my HDD:
drivers_win7-2017-02-24.zip ... modified .inf file without COM port, newer LecAladdinFrontPanel.sys from 2016-07-04 with just 8704 bytes
... still available under https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg1144239/#msg1144239
drivers_win7-2017-02-25.zip ... modified .inf file with COM port, original front panel driver from 2011 with 12928 bytes
... should be this one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg1144579/#msg1144579
drivers_win7-2017-02-26.zip ... modified .inf file with COM port, new  LecAladdinFrontPanel.sys from 2017-02-25 with 8704 bytes
... here  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg1145451/#msg1145451

So all three versions are still there, nothing deleted. In the last post 1145451 from 2017-02-26 he mentions that his version of the front panel driver was not included in the second one.
However his Front panel driver (contained in 1st and 3rd zip file) did not work on my hardware. The second one (original Lecroy) worked with the flickering issue. So to install my driver, you have to use the driver with just the modified .inf file from https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/upgrading-mainboard-in-lecroy-dda-3000-(aka-wavepro-7300a)/msg1144579/#msg1144579.

Sorry, I still haven't found out how to quote different posts in this forum, that's why I'm just inserting the links. Maybe I'll change my post and add a link to the correct driver package with just the modified .inf file.
 

Offline ollopa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Country: 00
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #303 on: March 06, 2019, 09:50:58 am »
I didn't mean the post with the zip file is deleted, I meant posts discussing the development of the front panel driver.  I was pretty sure there was some discussion about it that I can't find anymore and IIRC there was an issue a while back where LeCroy got upset about some posts here and then they vanished (but there were ghostly archives on taptalk :D)
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #304 on: March 10, 2019, 11:40:38 am »
During the last weeks i tried to get our SDA6020 into service.
I kept the original intel 865 motherboard, but changed from W2K to XP Pro when installing the SSD. Some days ago i put in a Prescott 530 processor and more RAM. Yesterday i installed Ingo's filter driver and it resolved the front panel issue introduced by SMP. Thanks a lot.

Now there is one more issue with the fan controller. Fans are running half speed under W2k most of the time, except during startup of XStream. Temperatures reach about 62 °C maximum (MAM of channel 3). W2K shows one CPU even with the new processor.

The fan controller never behaved under XP. Fans are always running full speed. When i went into the Lecroy service panel under Fan Controller and changed "Config" from 0x0A to 0x3A fans were running half speed, but only until some timer event changed the setting back to 0x0A and after some tries the link to the fan controller screws up in a way similar to the front panel confusion. A red LED "Alarm" lights on the fan controller/Touch controller/LCD controller board.
In the XP device manager the fan controller appears to be working but  "Driver is not using any ressouces because it has a problem". It depends on the Lecroy I2C device.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ollopa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Country: 00
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #305 on: March 10, 2019, 11:43:17 pm »
I believe the SDA6K series is based on the Wave Master 8K chassis and hardware.  How similar is the WM8K to the Wave Pro 7K -- are you sure it's using the same drivers?  For my own notes it would be great if you would enable show hidden devices in the device manager and list the files and resources being used for each driver.

How do you know the meaning of the values written to the fan controller config register?  Did you look up the part number and get the datasheet?
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #306 on: March 11, 2019, 08:42:32 am »
Yes, since the SDA6020 is a 20 Gs/sec scope, it must be something like an 8500. Yet very similar to the scopes being discussed here.

I can run the scope with the original HD with W2K and XStream 6.8.1.4 and capture the fan controller panel in service mode. Then i restart the scope with the SSD with XP Pro and XStream 8.1.2.0. Then the only difference is the "Config" entry. So i thought it may be a different setup, but there is something more.

By the way, the same message "Device does not use ressources because it has problems" appears in W2K device manager. The other data of the hidden devices is identical in W2K and XP device managers and in W2K the fan controller behaves as expected. This is why i think there may be another multithreading issue. Maybe i can find something comparing the setup and log files on D: of the two setups. Somewhere above in this thread an I2C device problem was mentioned without details.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ingowien

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: at
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #307 on: March 11, 2019, 09:09:11 am »
I never paid much attention to this, the scopes are way to loud in any case and only used if really required. But maybe I had issues of non-reducing fans, too. I'll check if I can reproduce this.
Do you get a fan controller error when xstream starts? I think this is just a small message on the splash screen.
Can you share a picture of your I/O card where the fans are attached? There are different versions of that card with different microcontrollers on them.
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #308 on: March 11, 2019, 09:28:27 am »
The SDA 6020 IO Board.
 

Offline ingowien

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: at
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #309 on: March 11, 2019, 09:40:11 am »
Looks similar to the board in my DDA-5005 except that those 5W resistors are smaller and mounted next to the board between the heat sinks. And mine has a 3M Dynapro touch controller, I can't read the label on your picture. I ve seen so many variants of these boards, I'm starting to think they are all different...
I'll check if the fan speeds down on my DDA-5005 in the evening.
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #310 on: March 11, 2019, 10:04:20 am »
Yes, it has the Dynapro Res4 controller.
The main fans have two speeds: DAC Level 0x00 = full speed, DAC Level 0x33 = reduced speed. The 3 Ohm power resistors can be small because the main fans should really never run "slow". Anyway, when they run "reduced" the noise level is much lower. I guess they tried to select resistors such that the reduced fan level is about sufficient at  20°C room temperature.
The red ALARM LED sits next to the right leg of the upper resistor.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10339
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #311 on: March 11, 2019, 11:17:37 am »
The SDA 6020 IO Board.
can there be used 2 wires fan? if they come from factory that means rpm feedback (i guess) is not used in sw say to warn user of damaged fan?
btw... while checking thermal profile of my upgraded system, i snapped thermal profile of the pci acq board... manually edited and superimposed in photoshop... fwiw...

« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 02:06:31 am by Mechatrommer »
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #312 on: March 11, 2019, 11:43:03 am »
In our SDA6020 the two main fans for the acquisition board cabinet are actually two wire fans, 2x red/black cables with plugs on middle of upper edge of the photo. The power supply cabinet has a tacho fan, red/yello/black, left plug on upper edge of the board.
Fans are controlled by at least two MAX6651. The service mode fan controller panel represents the register set 1:1. When i got time i will draw the circuit and look at the I2C signals with my Rigol...

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ingowien

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: at
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #313 on: March 11, 2019, 06:29:29 pm »
Ok, here's the behaviour of my DDA-5005: After power on the fans are on lower speed. This changes to full speed some seconds after xstream starts. After approx. 90..120s, maybe with the first calibration the fans are reduced to the lower speed. I think I only have two speeds here. No errors in xstream. Maybe there's a difference in the default configuraton of the machines.
DDA-5005, AIMB-581, Win7, Drivers from xstream 7.1.1.2, xstream 8.1.0.1. All my fans are 3-pin. All drivers are loaded, working and use resources.
I've not checked what the actual controller is nor the advanced options as I always forget that code to get into the service options.
The alert LED seems to be present on my I/O board, too. But I've never seen it on.
And I completeley missed there is xstream 8.1.2.0 but they won't let me download it without a account verification and a stupid opt-in, so I'll leave it on their server where it's safe...
 

Online DaJMasta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2047
  • Country: us
    • medpants.com
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #314 on: March 11, 2019, 06:49:34 pm »
That is basically the behavior of the WP7200/7300As I've worked with.  It's not tied to starting XStream, but rather to how long the system has been up, so if you leave it in bios, or boot with the acquisition board uncovered and externally cooled, the timing is about the same.  I believe I've heard the fans speed up again later on in use, but there does seem to be some sort of higher speed mode that's part of the warm up and check process.
 

Offline Converter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 193
  • Country: ua
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #315 on: March 12, 2019, 12:24:17 am »
Looks similar to the board in my DDA-5005 except that those 5W resistors are smaller and mounted next to the board between the heat sinks..
These resistors are different because the SDA6020 fans have twice as much power as in WavePro and the usual WaveMaster (15W vs 7.8W; 130mm vs 120mm), which is necessary to cool its double amount ADCs (if you notice, here, instead of the hard disk, is also installed an additional power supply module 48B 350W, and the hard drive was moved to the area CD-ROM drive).
The power system on the ACQ board has been completely redesigned, and as you can see, there is also a higher-quality clock generator.

Yes, since the SDA6020 is a 20 Gs/sec scope, it must be something like an 8500.
More precisely WM8620
I had the experience of low-level hardware repair of this device.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 01:00:18 am by Converter »
 

Offline ollopa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Country: 00
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #316 on: March 12, 2019, 01:46:27 am »
Fans are always running full speed. When i went into the Lecroy service panel under Fan Controller and changed "Config" from 0x0A to 0x3A fans were running half speed, but only until some timer event changed the setting back to 0x0A

This sounds very suspicious to me.  0x0A is the MAX6550 power-on-reset default value (and so is DAC = 0x00).
So far in my observation of my WP7KA the config register is always 0x3a (open-loop) under all operating conditions after firmware is started, which makes sense to me.

What if it's not the fan controller driver but a hardware issue like a noisy power rail causing the chip to occasionally reset?  If you could probe the I2C lines when the change happens it would be interesting to see if it is a commanded change or not.

Another possibility is to try disabling the driver in the device manager right after setting the register to 3a so the driver/firmware can no longer talk to hardware to change it.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10339
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #317 on: March 12, 2019, 02:31:21 am »
is also installed an additional power supply module 48B 350W, and the hard drive was moved to the area CD-ROM drive).
isnt that overkill for just 2A addition? the sda6000 fan is 0.65A each (but tested consumes 0.4A full power), with sda6020's fans 1.3A each, thats only about 2A addition. 350W is (350 / 12) 29A addition, i think it must be something else. i'm thinking about my mod 65W to 95W cpu, thats 2A+ addition, not to mention additional fans and liquid pump (small one) i'm adding to it. anyway i'm ordering 2X 0.22A 65CFM fan just for experimentation if possible to reduce current consumption and noise... using stock 2X 0.65A 110CFM Panaflo FBA12G12U, the acq board temp is this...
It's extremely difficult to start life.. one features of nature.. physical laws are mathematical theory of great beauty... You may wonder Why? our knowledge shows that nature is so constructed. We simply have to accept it. One could describe the situation by saying that... (Paul Dirac)
 

Offline Converter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 193
  • Country: ua
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #318 on: March 12, 2019, 03:33:56 am »
is also installed an additional power supply module 48B 350W, and the hard drive was moved to the area CD-ROM drive).
isnt that overkill for just 2A addition? the sda6000 fan is 0.65A each (but tested consumes 0.4A full power), with sda6020's fans 1.3A each, thats only about 2A addition. 350W is (350 / 12) 29A addition, i think it must be something else.
Probably you didn’t read very carefully, because I already wrote that the SDA6020 contains twice the number of ADCs (8 × 10Gs/sec), which are the largest energy consumers in LeCroy oscilloscopes.
And this additional power supply 48V (Digital Power Corp eFOA306-148) is used to supply energy only to them, through 4 compact converters Cherokee Apollo QB4548A 48V/3.3V and 48V/2.5V.
A regular power supply, which is present in all models, supplies energy to all other nodes on the ACQ board in SDA6020 (excluding ADC). This power supply scheme is fundamentally different from WavePro7K and SDA6000, etc.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 03:56:58 am by Converter »
 
The following users thanked this post: Mechatrommer

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #319 on: March 12, 2019, 10:26:40 am »
After drawing some kind of schematic i found that the fan controller section has one of those MAX chips for each of the three big fans and a 3.3 V regulator. The power supply fan driver is shorted out, so the power supply fan always gets the full 12V supply .
The 3.3 V supply works well.
The 22uF output caps don't do anything with the big fans.
When recording the I2C signals i found a lot of spikes, since in the flat cable SDA and SCL are next to each other. But well, those I2C chips have filters and it seems to work.

After some time all fan driver chips reset to full speed without receiving any I2C message. It's the way a missing tacho signal get's handled when the chips are wired and setup like they are on the SDA6020 IO board. Don't know which trick Lecroy used to avoid this behaviour under W2K. But as mechatrommer wrote: It's a good idea to have a tacho and supply the tacho signals to the respective fan controllers. I got some reflective IR sensors, maybe they will serve.
I think i am close to solving that issue, but i have to wait for the white dots on the fan blades dry.

The whole story is a typical example of a Lecroy vent system. It's amazing how many holes existed in our SDA6020 where cool air escaped to the sides before cooling anything. The biggest of those holes is near the IO board. They just don't care for noise, on the contrary. Once a sales engineer said to me "But it's something like a Ferrari, it should be loud." When you turn it on, everybody should come and have a look.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ingowien

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 59
  • Country: at
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #320 on: March 12, 2019, 10:33:39 am »
Are you sure it's not just xStream 6.8.1.4 that handles things differently? If I remember correctly you mentioned that you compared an old 6.8 under W2k and a newer 8.1 unter XP or other OS versions.
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #321 on: March 12, 2019, 10:40:27 am »
Yes i am pretty shure. On the XP SSD i installed XStream 6.8.1.4 first and only after a week or so upgraded to 8.1.2.0. As far as i remember the fans never went to reduced speed under XP from the very beginning.

Before i forget:
That Digital Corp 48 V supply shown in one of the photos has a terrible hot spot. The 2x 330uF 63V rectifier caps run extremely hot, since they are mounted dense with three 2K resistors needed for stability with light loads. I took the resistors away and mounted them a little further above the unused area of the board. Now the two caps still get heat from the nearby inductor, but they run at about 60 or 70°C and should last a little longer.

Regards, Dieter
 

Offline ollopa

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 90
  • Country: 00
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #322 on: March 12, 2019, 10:50:41 am »
When run in open-loop mode mode, the tach is optional for readback only.  Even in closed-loop mode the DAC value will be driven down to 0 but the config register will not change.  Where in the datasheet did you read that the config register will change back to 0x0A on a tachometer fault?  I didn't see it in there.

Your statement about the power supply driver being shorted out doesn't make sense to me.  It wouldn't be intentionally designed that way so perhaps I misunderstand you -- Do you mean the part is not loaded or that it is defective?
 

Online dietert1

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 806
  • Country: de
    • CADT Homepage
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #323 on: March 12, 2019, 11:18:41 am »
It's a feature. One of the GPIOs is setup as an ALERT* output, another one as FULL_ON* input (GPIO_DEF=0x25). When those pins are wired together, you get some kind of reset on tacho error. When i changed that setup in the service fan controller panel to GPIO_DEF=0x27 and CONFIG=0x3A, the two big fans kept running at reduced speed.

The power supply fan controller is shorted intentionally. They kept the fan controller chip to read the tacho, but they could have saved the mosfet, the cooler and the small parts of the third fan controller. Looks like some kind of rapid prototyping using existing parts.

Regards, Dieter
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:23:18 am by dietert1 »
 

Offline Converter

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 193
  • Country: ua
Re: Upgrading Mainboard in Lecroy DDA-3000 (aka WavePro 7300a?)
« Reply #324 on: March 12, 2019, 02:08:19 pm »
Before i forget:
That Digital Corp 48 V supply shown in one of the photos has a terrible hot spot. The 2x 330uF 63V rectifier caps run extremely hot, since they are mounted dense with three 2K resistors needed for stability with light loads. I took the resistors away and mounted them a little further above the unused area of the board. Now the two caps still get heat from the nearby inductor, but they run at about 60 or 70°C and should last a little longer.

Regards, Dieter
Yes, indeed, this module eFOA306-148 operates in dangerous thermal mode. Only below him is a small gap through which a small airflow is carried out for cooling.

I had to repair this module, as well as one Cherokee QB4548A.
In accordance with my measurements, SDA6020 power consumption 630W, while SDA6000 - 450W, WP7300A - 430W.


i'm thinking about my mod 65W to 95W cpu, thats 2A+ addition, not to mention additional fans and liquid pump (small one) i'm adding to it. anyway i'm ordering 2X 0.22A 65CFM fan just for experimentation if possible to reduce current consumption and noise... using stock 2X 0.65A 110CFM Panaflo FBA12G12U, the acq board temp is this...
Personally, I would not risk replacing with fans that have less performance. Because for some reason, LeCroy developers are forced to install these powerful fans. However, your study of temperature changes after installing less productive 0.22A 65KFM fans will be useful for analysis. Do not forget to take into account that the static pressure parameter provided by your fan is no less significant. I suppose that in this situation, when LeCroy oscillograph uses long and narrow channels for air circulation through the ACQ board and a small area of holes in the back wall of the instrument housing (by the way, in SDA6020 the area of these ventilation holes is much larger), this parameter will be very important.

I have ideas on how to reduce the noise from cooling, while not reducing the performance of the fans. But more about that later, after the tests.

A thoughtful analysis of the specifications of different models of fans led me to the conclusion that there is only one way to reduce acoustic noise and at the same time not to lose performance - this is an increase in the useful area of ​​the fan blades. At the same time, in order to maintain the same level of performance, the fan rotational speed can be reduced, which will reduce acoustic noise. But you need to be careful, because the reduction in speed leads to a decrease in static pressure, which also depends on the design of the fan blades (you were probably observant and noticed earlier that small fans emit more noise to achieve the same performance as large fans?).
I have already made initial preparations for this experiment, as well as my way of implementing this principle, you can see in the photo below.

Yes, it will require a small expansion of the opening in the original vibration damping plate for the fans. Alternatively, in order not to do this - you can add 2 more conical adapters 120mm/140mm. Transitions should be as smooth as possible.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 04:49:49 pm by Converter »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf