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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 03:39:50 am

Title: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 03:39:50 am
*lazy Dave mode activated*
What's the current go for the sub US$150 meter market in terms of 60,000 counts, 0.05% DC, as good as 0.06% ohms, and 0.075% current?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 03:54:42 am
60,000 for $150?  :-//
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:01:51 am
60,000 for $150?  :-//

Yep, I want to know what is available in that price category. The Brymen BM867 comes close but is in the $170 range.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 04:04:05 am
Well not only do I not know of a go to but I don't know of any.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: JustMeHere on October 25, 2019, 04:05:48 am
Can't find anything that does 60,000 count for less than $350.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:06:09 am
Well not only do I not know of a go to but I don't know of any.

That's what I want to know, because I could potentially sell one for under US$150
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:06:57 am
Can't find anything that does 60,000 count for less than $350.

Even my 121GW is only US$200
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:07:57 am
In case you haven't figured it out, I fishing to see if it's worthwhile stocking a US$150 class meter in addition to my $100 class BM235 and $200 class 121GW.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: mengfei on October 25, 2019, 04:08:47 am
Well not only do I not know of a go to but I don't know of any.

That's what I want to know, because I could potentially sell one for under US$150

I bet they already have that here in the Middle Kingdom -  just have to do a search
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 04:09:14 am
For $150 I think it's your own market, but I don't know if that's a lucrative market. Is $50 a big enough difference for people to get it over the 121GW? Also I don't know if a reliable source for brymen in the US without a large markup. Other than the 235 from you.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: JustMeHere on October 25, 2019, 04:12:33 am
What about this:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 04:14:30 am
What about this:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE)

Not 60K and specs are worse than potential. That's a 6000 count with a typo.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:18:10 am
What about this:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE)

Yep, but $170 with lesser current and resistance specs.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: JustMeHere on October 25, 2019, 04:19:06 am
What about this:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE)

Not 60K and specs are worse than potential. That's a 6000 count with a typo.

Here it is again, but this time the photo looks correct.

https://www.tequipment.net/BK/393/Handheld-Multimeter/ (https://www.tequipment.net/BK/393/Handheld-Multimeter/)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:19:49 am
For $150 I think it's your own market, but I don't know if that's a lucrative market. Is $50 a big enough difference for people to get it over the 121GW?

Yeah, that's the trick.
Although this one is more rugged and higher CAT rating than the 121GW, so more suited if you wanted a rugged field meter for example, and it has EVF detection. The 121GW is more of a lab meter.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 04:21:40 am
What about this:

http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE (http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/bk-precision/multimeters/trms-digital-multimeter-393.htm?ref=gbase&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ejxusW25QIVBXiGCh3QYg7XEAkYDyABEgIK_PD_BwE)

Not 60K and specs are worse than potential. That's a 6000 count with a typo.

Here it is again, but this time the photo looks correct.

https://www.tequipment.net/BK/393/Handheld-Multimeter/ (https://www.tequipment.net/BK/393/Handheld-Multimeter/)

I was just being dismissive. The specs aren't great and AC 1KHz bandwidth. Wasn't there a throw up smiley?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on October 25, 2019, 04:23:09 am
For $150 I think it's your own market, but I don't know if that's a lucrative market. Is $50 a big enough difference for people to get it over the 121GW?

Yeah, that's the trick.
Although this one is more rugged and higher CAT rating than the 121GW, so more suited if you wanted a rugged field meter for example. The 121GW is more of a lab meter.

That could be interesting then. I haven't bought a 121GW because I do need "tough" meters.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 25, 2019, 04:27:16 am
That could be interesting then. I haven't bought a 121GW because I do need "tough" meters.

That's what I figured some people might want.
A rugged field meter but with EVF (no LowZ though) and lab-like resolution and accuracy at a price not a lot more than the BM235.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2019, 01:41:52 pm
Can't find anything that does 60,000 count for less than $350.

There's a couple of Brymens that do 50,000 for half that, and they can switch to 500,000 counts in DC voltage mode.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on October 25, 2019, 01:43:06 pm
Yep, I want to know what is available in that price category. The Brymen BM867 comes close but is in the $170 range.

I don't think you can do better than that Brymen.

Edit: ...although I think the old-school BM857s looks tougher and more "industrial" than those new curvy models. The screen is more recessed, etc.

(and, yes, they've fixed the backlight on the 857  ;D )
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: fanOfeeDIY on October 25, 2019, 02:28:14 pm
I will be starting to talk in my family to buy one more dmm in the room space ;D
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 07, 2020, 03:03:19 am
Now adding optional Bluetooth and upgradeable firmware...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on February 08, 2020, 02:15:36 am
Just another datapoint from CEM: DT9969
http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979 (http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979)

I agree with Fungus that the BM857/859 are quite capable and seem reasonably "rugged", although not to the level of a 28II.

Why such massive number of counts for the field? Also, would connectivity be really killer? Unless you want to play in the processmeter arena...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2020, 02:28:23 am
Just another datapoint from CEM: DT9969
http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979 (http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979)

This one will be streets ahead of the DT-9969, although it won't be dust and waterproof.
Also it may turn out to be cheaper. Although I don't know what the future Bluetooth one will sell for.

Quote
I agree with Fungus that the BM857/859 are quite capable and seem reasonably "rugged", although not to the level of a 28II.

The BM859 is really old design.

Quote
Why such massive number of counts for the field? Also, would connectivity be really killer? Unless you want to play in the processmeter arena...

Why counts? Because meters can have dual use.
Usually you don't need 60,000 counts, 0.05% DC, 0.06% ohms, and 0.075% current for the field, but it's nice to have for the lab.
This product has now been a little bit delayed because the option of a Bluetooth footprint is being added, so that that capability can be added in a future model without a design or safety re-certification presumably. They wanted to slip it in before sending for UL testing. I have asked if the firmware can support it and if users can then simply solder in their own Bluetooth module, that's a maybe  :-+
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2020, 02:39:45 am
Just another datapoint from CEM: DT9969
http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979 (http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/979)

I agree with Fungus that the BM857/859 are quite capable and seem reasonably "rugged", although not to the level of a 28II.

Why such massive number of counts for the field? Also, would connectivity be really killer? Unless you want to play in the processmeter arena...

I have been using the EX540 (DT9939) for about 8 years now and bought one to transient test that had a problem.   That 900MHz radio has been used in places that Bluetooth would never work.   The bargraph is pointless but I do like that tri-display, plus it has all the basic features.   The best deal was when a company was selling them for $120 with free shipping.  A few friends bought them before they sold out.   

I wouldn't mind getting the DT9959 to run.     
 
http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/893 (http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/893)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2020, 02:45:28 am
I have been using the EX540 (DT9939) for about 8 years now and bought one to transient test that had a problem.   That 900MHz radio has been used in places that Bluetooth would never work.   The bargraph is pointless but I do like that tri-display, plus it has all the basic features.   The best deal was when a company was selling them for $120 with free shipping.  A few friends bought them before they sold out.   

$120 was a bargain.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2020, 04:32:08 am
Looks like a Fluke, from a distance, with one eye closed during the night..
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50000-Counts-High-Accuracy-Digital-Capacitance_698335750.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.52.694e6790syMp39 (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50000-Counts-High-Accuracy-Digital-Capacitance_698335750.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.52.694e6790syMp39)

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2020, 05:00:04 am
Looks like a Fluke, from a distance, with one eye closed during the night..
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50000-Counts-High-Accuracy-Digital-Capacitance_698335750.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.52.694e6790syMp39 (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/50000-Counts-High-Accuracy-Digital-Capacitance_698335750.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.52.694e6790syMp39)

I wonder hoe many they sell?

(https://sc02.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1fcNaKVXXXXcoapXXq6xXFXXXq/50000-Counts-High-Accuracy-Digital-Capacitance-Multimeter.jpg)

It's a Fuke!
(https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1W4dBIVXXXXcBXFXXq6xXFXXX1/Fogg-FUKE-Cheap-digital-multimeter-Digital-Multimeter-Meter-DT9202.jpg)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2020, 05:32:13 am
Maybe a step up

https://www.tequipment.net/Amprobe/AM-140-A/Handheld-Multimeter/?v=65116#description (https://www.tequipment.net/Amprobe/AM-140-A/Handheld-Multimeter/?v=65116#description)

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on February 08, 2020, 09:16:17 am
Maybe a step up

https://www.tequipment.net/Amprobe/AM-140-A/Handheld-Multimeter/?v=65116#description (https://www.tequipment.net/Amprobe/AM-140-A/Handheld-Multimeter/?v=65116#description)

That meter sounds suspiciously close to being some Brymen variant close to BM857/859 family... Which is a good thing..
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on February 08, 2020, 11:25:23 am
That meter sounds suspiciously close to being some Brymen variant close to BM857/859 family... Which is a good thing..

Nah. Brymen meters do have rebrands but they still look exactly like Brymens.

eg. https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters (https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on February 08, 2020, 12:01:46 pm
I agree with Fungus that the BM857/859 are quite capable and seem reasonably "rugged", although not to the level of a 28II.
The BM859 is really old design.
And is that a really bad thing? I don't really know, but the quality is certainly there - my BM857 is a pre production model of 2002 and it looks and still feels quite the meter.

Why such massive number of counts for the field? Also, would connectivity be really killer? Unless you want to play in the processmeter arena...

Why counts? Because meters can have dual use.
Usually you don't need 60,000 counts, 0.05% DC, 0.06% ohms, and 0.075% current for the field, but it's nice to have for the lab.
This product has now been a little bit delayed because the option of a Bluetooth footprint is being added, so that that capability can be added in a future model without a design or safety re-certification presumably. They wanted to slip it in before sending for UL testing. I have asked if the firmware can support it and if users can then simply solder in their own Bluetooth module, that's a maybe  :-+
I see your reasoning. Well, the 60000 counts is great if it can be as fast as the Brymen or the 187/189 with 50000 counts. The U1282A with 60000 counts is slow.

You may be able to get away with safety if the footprint is there, but obviously that will depend entirely on regulations at the time of release. Also, you will still require some additional testing for intentional irradiators and EMI susceptibility tests - after all, you need to know if the multimeter can survive a nearby zap.

That meter sounds suspiciously close to being some Brymen variant close to BM857/859 family... Which is a good thing..

Nah. Brymen meters do have rebrands but they still look exactly like Brymens.

eg. https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters (https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters)
Although Brymen as an OEM is known for keeping the same mold, Amprobe is big enough to create their own. The specs and the overall arrangement of buttons, jacks, range switch is identical to the BM857.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: GreyWoolfe on February 08, 2020, 01:57:02 pm
In case you haven't figured it out, I fishing to see if it's worthwhile stocking a US$150 class meter in addition to my $100 class BM235 and $200 class 121GW.

The BM235 sells for $125 USD on Amazon right now while the 121GW is at the $200 price point.  All the extras for only $25 or so more might end up killing the 235, at least here in the states.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 08, 2020, 05:21:51 pm
On the Amazon ad, there's no mention of what revision the 121 is that they are selling.  It could be the old stock like what I received.  I would suggest using the source that people are getting the latest hardware from.

https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-121GW-Multimeter/dp/B07W8C3T3J/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=121gw&qid=1581182345&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-121GW-Multimeter/dp/B07W8C3T3J/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=121gw&qid=1581182345&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 08, 2020, 11:37:02 pm
In case you haven't figured it out, I fishing to see if it's worthwhile stocking a US$150 class meter in addition to my $100 class BM235 and $200 class 121GW.
The BM235 sells for $125 USD on Amazon right now while the 121GW is at the $200 price point.  All the extras for only $25 or so more might end up killing the 235, at least here in the states.

It would be more than US$150 on Amazon. Amazon prices are higher because they take a 17% cut.
Also, this new meter is much bigger than the BM235, and a lot of the popularity of the BM235 is the small form factor.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Vgkid on February 09, 2020, 04:42:02 am
Maybe a step up
I was looking at the 140A, and it doesn't look bad.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 09, 2020, 05:37:51 am
Maybe a step up
I was looking at the 140A, and it doesn't look bad.
No it doesn't.  CSA certified, I'm guessing no glass fuses inside.  Normally the meters that have been tested to the 61326 standard, have at least made it past the grill starter and my gun.   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Vgkid on February 09, 2020, 10:29:59 am
There is a bit of a teardown in this video.
https://youtu.be/ZC9ffpAHiD8
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on February 09, 2020, 10:56:47 am
That is definitely Brymen based design. Datalogging adapter and software is the same.
Pretty much BM857 without temperature measurement...
Probably very good instrument.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on February 09, 2020, 12:01:11 pm
Sinisa, the BM857 does not have temperature as well. The BM859 has it.

So, the AM140 is in fact a BM857 on a different shell. A great instrument.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on February 09, 2020, 11:20:34 pm
Well not only do I not know of a go to but I don't know of any.

That's what I want to know, because I could potentially sell one for under US$150


okay  loll  what are you selling, or want to sell ??
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 09, 2020, 11:28:47 pm
Well not only do I not know of a go to but I don't know of any.
That's what I want to know, because I could potentially sell one for under US$150
okay  loll  what are you selling, or want to sell ??

It's not released yet, so I can't tell you.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: The Soulman on February 10, 2020, 12:31:59 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 10, 2020, 01:17:35 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)
Seems like a nice meter.  There is no mention of EMC or 61326 but that doesn't mean it would do poorly against my tests.   Looks like TME carries it:
https://www.tme.eu/en/details/pkt-p3442/portable-digital-multimeters/peaktech/p3442/ (https://www.tme.eu/en/details/pkt-p3442/portable-digital-multimeters/peaktech/p3442/)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Monkeh on February 10, 2020, 01:23:32 am
That meter sounds suspiciously close to being some Brymen variant close to BM857/859 family... Which is a good thing..

Nah. Brymen meters do have rebrands but they still look exactly like Brymens.

eg. https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters (https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/digital-multimeters)

You say that.. this is a BM235: https://www.flir.co.uk/products/dm66/ (https://www.flir.co.uk/products/dm66/)

Or, well, it's the same PCB - I haven't bothered to compare features between the BM231, BM233, BM235, DM64, DM66, and DM67 (which doesn't apparently exist officially.. yet?).
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on February 10, 2020, 01:24:54 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)
Seems like a nice meter. 

Basic accuracy is poor.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 10, 2020, 01:58:21 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)
Seems like a nice meter. 

Basic accuracy is poor.
It seems similar to meters like the UT61E which many people claim as good enough.       

"Accuracy temperature18°C...28°C (64°F to 82°F) to maintain guaranteed accuracy"

Maybe they are just realistic as they spec it over temp, where the UT61E does not.  That UT61E had more drift than most of the meters I looked at.   

Questions I have is would it show high voltage in cases where there is high voltage present and would the grill starter end its life.    :popcorn:
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 10, 2020, 03:59:06 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)

Seems like everyone is doing Bluetooth now.
But that one is 0.9% DC. Horrible spec for a 50,000 count meter  :-//
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: LeonR on February 10, 2020, 02:46:12 pm
Having an AC/DC clamp meter mode (and optional clamp) would be nice.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on February 11, 2020, 01:23:11 pm
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)

Seems like everyone is doing Bluetooth now.
But that one is 0.9% DC. Horrible spec for a 50,000 count meter  :-//

The real questions I have are if the meter can actually read correct voltages without having to manually range.  Does the switch need constant care.  Do I have to constantly update and test the firmware to get the basic features working.  Is the meter sensitive to magnetic fields in the 50/60Hz range.  Of course, also,  can it survive even the most basic of transients.   

No doubt there are meters out there with "horrible" specs but I would rather a meter like this than one with impressive specs that has problems with the above conditions.   Plus you save a few bucks....
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: frogg on February 11, 2020, 04:04:09 pm
IMHO tech specs aside, auto hold and auto min-max-avg are the features sorely missing on otherwise good sub-$150 meters.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on February 12, 2020, 02:58:35 am
https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html (https://www.reichelt.nl/multimeter-digitaal-60000-counts-trms-bluetooth-peaktech-3442-p214834.html)

Seems like everyone is doing Bluetooth now.
But that one is 0.9% DC. Horrible spec for a 50,000 count meter  :-//
I agree, it is hard to get an analog front end done right.

This is a CEM meter - not famous for their quality control and specs.
http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/1392 (http://www.cem-instruments.com/en/Product/detail/id/1392)

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 12, 2020, 08:45:05 am
IMHO tech specs aside, auto hold and auto min-max-avg are the features sorely missing on otherwise good sub-$150 meters.

This new one will have AutoHold  ;D
[attachimg=1]

And the usual auto min,max,avg
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on February 17, 2020, 03:34:57 am
Not being rude :   i think this thread kinda died ??

Lack of interest  of Dave leazy mode  loll

Is it an already built up meter or a new design ?? it's kinda confusing for me ?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 17, 2020, 03:46:22 am
Not being rude :   i think this thread kinda died ??
Lack of interest  of Dave leazy mode  loll
Is it an already built up meter or a new design ?? it's kinda confusing for me ?

I have nothing to share, I don't have the meter yet, they delayed it a bit.
It is a new design that has not been released or announced yet, last I heard it was going through UL testing.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 18, 2020, 09:50:07 am
I'll be getting a sample shipped end of next week  ;D
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on February 20, 2020, 03:15:23 pm
Would be nice to have a 60k count dmm, with bluetooth or wireless as an module option,  to reduce selling cost / price,  i need more digits but  "no needs  for external communication(s)"

And mostly a fast autoranging ....



Q: is this dmm a 121gw succesor ??

thks
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on February 21, 2020, 12:32:30 am
Q: is this dmm a 121gw succesor ??

Nope. As I said, it's an "in-between" model.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: skander36 on April 18, 2020, 06:24:49 pm
Hello , any news ?
I think that DMM show by Joe at post 26 is the same with Mastech 8218
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32885850387.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.28e82f8baMNI9z&algo_pvid=62572b9d-28d2-432e-98b4-8409be7a9958&algo_expid=62572b9d-28d2-432e-98b4-8409be7a9958-5&btsid=0ab6fab215872338780124076e8e03&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32885850387.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.28e82f8baMNI9z&algo_pvid=62572b9d-28d2-432e-98b4-8409be7a9958&algo_expid=62572b9d-28d2-432e-98b4-8409be7a9958-5&btsid=0ab6fab215872338780124076e8e03&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
It can be found now at around 140E on Aliexpress and was reviewed by MJLorton - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLYZaqdklQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okLYZaqdklQ) . - 0,03% DCV basic accuracy claimed .
Look to hear news about the new DMM .
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 20, 2020, 11:34:59 pm
Hello , any news ?
I think that DMM show by Joe at post 26 is the same with Mastech 8218

Delayed due to the virus of course, but they have the sample and are going to send to me on the 27th April.
No it's not a Mastech.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Muttley Snickers on April 22, 2020, 08:14:17 am
Delayed due to the virus of course, but they have the sample and are going to send to me on the 27th April.
Will there be a discussion about this new meter in the Supporters Lounge prior to a formal public announcement ?.   :-DMM ???

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on April 22, 2020, 01:48:22 pm
i want oooone  or 2 or 3  ...   i'm i need for new meters at my job. Maybe some new friends for my flukes 189 ?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 22, 2020, 01:50:18 pm
Delayed due to the virus of course, but they have the sample and are going to send to me on the 27th April.
Will there be a discussion about this new meter in the Supporters Lounge prior to a formal public announcement ?.   :-DMM ???

Maybe when I get the thing.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2020, 07:11:26 am
Got the final user manual, specs have changed a little bit on various things. It's interesting how you might initially target a particular spec, but after extensive testing determine what the real spec is finally going to be.
0.03%+2 DCV
0.075%+20 DCA
0.08%+4 Ohms

Unit is on the plane.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: stafil on April 28, 2020, 07:21:24 am
No it's not a Mastech.

I bet Dave had a change of heart and it’s a Uni-T :-DD
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on April 28, 2020, 11:38:00 am
hurryyyy  loll
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 28, 2020, 11:51:54 pm
hurryyyy  loll

Even DHL are very slow these days, it hasn't left the country yet. So much for "Express".
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on April 29, 2020, 01:00:32 am
Same here in Canada  it's a mess, lots of delays  for many carriers, a one day express post took 1 week to arrive at destination loll

They send me Email delivery notices,  but its never right loll
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 30, 2020, 08:14:15 am
Got it!
First thing I noticed was how thin it was. I was expecting much thicker. They have done a novel convex arrangement on the case, I really like it!
Also an interesting new design battery compartment (3xAAA's)
Probably less than 1.5sec ohms ranging, quite fast.
Autohold works great, but has thei feature of flashing the digits. Not a bad idea I guess.
Great and fast continuity test and flashes the backlight.
Downsides:
- The fuses are inside the case (6 self tappers), no external access. Probably has to do with making the case thin. Kinda has an old Fluke 70's series vibe when you open it to replace the fuses.
- Jack alert doesn't work, but it's supposed to have it.

Has what looks like a firmware programming port inside the battery compartment.

I found a 6 pin SIP header footprint inside, maybe that's for the optional Bluetooth module, not sure.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ggchab on April 30, 2020, 08:21:42 am
A photo ? ;D
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on April 30, 2020, 08:22:36 am
A photo ? ;D

Nope  :P
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: tautech on April 30, 2020, 08:44:14 am
Send it on to Joe, he'll soon tell you if it's any good.  :-DMM  :-BROKE
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: stafil on April 30, 2020, 05:38:39 pm
Got it!
First thing I noticed was how thin it was. I was expecting much thicker. They have done a novel convex arrangement on the case, I really like it!
Also an interesting new design battery compartment (3xAAA's)
Probably less than 1.5sec ohms ranging, quite fast.
Autohold works great, but has thei feature of flashing the digits. Not a bad idea I guess.
Great and fast continuity test and flashes the backlight.
Downsides:
- The fuses are inside the case (6 self tappers), no external access. Probably has to do with making the case thin. Kinda has an old Fluke 70's series vibe when you open it to replace the fuses.
- Jack alert doesn't work, but it's supposed to have it.

Has what looks like a firmware programming port inside the battery compartment.

I found a 6 pin SIP header footprint inside, maybe that's for the optional Bluetooth module, not sure.

Video coming soon?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on April 30, 2020, 11:32:08 pm
Still no photo or even a mention of the brand.   It's sounding more and more like the 121GW deal.   Fool me once....
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: hwj-d on April 30, 2020, 11:58:54 pm
booked  :-DMM
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on May 01, 2020, 12:26:46 am
121gw  lite ??
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on May 01, 2020, 01:12:20 am
It's supposed to be a more durable meter than the 121gw. So I'd call it a 121gw X-Plus ala siglent.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 01:23:22 am
It's supposed to be a more durable meter than the 121gw.

Actually that's an interesting point.
Certainly more rugged from an electrical point of view, but from a mechanical point of view, I don't know. The 121GW is a full holster based meter, this one is an overmoulded split case design. Similar to say a Fluke 77 IV

(https://www.distrelec.biz/Web/WebShopImages/landscape_large/_j/pg/fluke_fluke-77-iv-e_pro_01.jpg)

Of course the 77 IV is stupidly rugged, so it's not a matter of just having lack of a thick holster. It feels pretty rugged.
Now that I think about it, yeah, it's kind a competitor to the Fluke 77 IV in terms of look'n'feel of the overmoulded case, no fuse access via battery compartment, but with extra stuff like EF testing, 60,000 count, proper low current support, way better specs etc. i.e. a proper "electronics" version of a Fluke 77 IV.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 01, 2020, 01:31:20 am
Great suspense, Dave!

A split case is less desirable from my point of view, but a recently acquired Amprobe is quite well done and fells really robust.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 01:32:30 am
Great suspense, Dave! A split case is less desirable from my point of view, but a recently acquired Amprobe is quite well done and fells really robust.

Yeah, I didn't know it was split case fuses inside until I got it. The early photos were just from the front were you can't tell.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 01:53:15 am
And it's got a custom hybrid resistor divider too, wasn't expecting that for the price, but I guess it's the only way they could get the fairly tight spec.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on May 01, 2020, 02:24:41 am
Dave i'm having a nervous breakdown from waiting  loll

Can the design be changed in the future for the fuses access,  meaning like a huge battery door and fuses change without opening the meter each time ?

Or Its an almost or "in production" model ?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 02:26:40 am
Can the design be changed in the future for the fuses access,  meaning like a huge battery door and fuses change without opening the meter each time ?
Or Its an almost or "in production" model ?

Nope, it's done, it's passed UL and other testing. This is what will ship.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 02:35:32 am
- Jack alert doesn't work, but it's supposed to have it.

Idiot Dave forgot to install the fuses after reassembly  :palm:
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on May 01, 2020, 03:15:02 am
I can see why some people don't like the lack of fuse access but it definitely doesn't bother me. I actually prefer the overmould design as opposed to a holster as well in virtually every meter I've owned. Looking forward to seeing it.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Monkeh on May 01, 2020, 03:21:56 am
Hard to get at and expensive fuses are just motivation not to be an idiot and blow them.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ahbushnell on May 01, 2020, 04:11:44 am
In case you haven't figured it out, I fishing to see if it's worthwhile stocking a US$150 class meter in addition to my $100 class BM235 and $200 class 121GW.
I paid 135 + CA tax for the EEVblog Brymen BM235 Multimeter on amazon a few months ago.

Great meter.  I notice it's not available now. 
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 04:13:03 am
Great meter.  I notice it's not available now.

Just got new stock in yesterday, need to ship more to the Amazon mothership.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 08:22:15 am
And it's got a custom hybrid resistor divider too, wasn't expecting that for the price, but I guess it's the only way they could get the fairly tight spec.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on May 01, 2020, 08:54:44 am
- Jack alert doesn't work, but it's supposed to have it.

Idiot Dave forgot to install the fuses after reassembly  :palm:

Sounds like something I'd do.    ;D
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: evava on May 01, 2020, 09:13:59 am
Is there a reason why wait on this meter instead of buying Brymen 857s ?
Can this be more bang for the buck?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 09:25:35 am
Is there a reason why wait on this meter instead of buying Brymen 857s ?
Can this be more bang for the buck?

Depends what you need. The 857S is based on a really old design, but it's got 500,000 count mode and PC interface. This new meter has EF detection, visual continuity, almost certainly more modern front protection and higher 60,000 count in normal mode. Maybe other things I haven't done a full comparison.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Muttley Snickers on May 01, 2020, 10:12:17 am
I couldn't wait any longer so am going to go with the one in the video below, a comprehensive teardown and re-assembly is also included. A few of the special features it incorporates are visual continuity display, ac voltage indication, fuse free operation, one second auto power off and an automatic natural selection mode.   :-DMM :o ::)

https://youtu.be/YEfiyPFWVdg (https://youtu.be/YEfiyPFWVdg)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on May 01, 2020, 11:20:37 am
And it's got a custom hybrid resistor divider too, wasn't expecting that for the price, but I guess it's the only way they could get the fairly tight spec.

[attachimg=1]
Well that resistor divider being stuck to the board kinda defies the purpose of that quite nice separation distance..  That is not going to help with breakdown voltage...
But it might not be a problem if input clamps keep it at safe voltage..
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 01:06:41 pm
And it's got a custom hybrid resistor divider too, wasn't expecting that for the price, but I guess it's the only way they could get the fairly tight spec.

[attachimg=1]
Well that resistor divider being stuck to the board kinda defies the purpose of that quite nice separation distance..  That is not going to help with breakdown voltage...

Not at all. You still have the PCB creepage, no difference in distance, and it's not stuck down, just bent over.

Quote
But it might not be a problem if input clamps keep it at safe voltage..

That's the job of a clamp.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on May 01, 2020, 01:26:16 pm
And it's got a custom hybrid resistor divider too, wasn't expecting that for the price, but I guess it's the only way they could get the fairly tight spec.

[attachimg=1]
Well that resistor divider being stuck to the board kinda defies the purpose of that quite nice separation distance..  That is not going to help with breakdown voltage...

Not at all. You still have the PCB creepage, no difference in distance, and it's not stuck down, just bent over.

Thanks for clarification, on photo it looks to be down on board, at the level of that screw head, touching it...
But that is all just talk. If it works it works..
Regards,
Sinisa
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 01, 2020, 02:46:59 pm
Thanks for clarification, on photo it looks to be down on board, at the level of that screw head, touching it...

Even if it was flat on the PCB touching for the entire surface it wouldn't make a difference, the creepage distance is the same length along the PCB anyway.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on May 01, 2020, 02:52:50 pm
Thanks for clarification, on photo it looks to be down on board, at the level of that screw head, touching it...

Even if it was flat on the PCB touching for the entire surface it wouldn't make a difference, the creepage distance is the same length along the PCB anyway.
That's debatable, if you look, at half of resistor creepage distance there is ground underneath the resistor. So looking at that, that is definitely half of what is resistor rated for... But still, what is left is a lot, and if something discharges it will go to ground, not to input.
Like I said, looks funny, but probably not an issue...
Thanks for nice discussion.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 01, 2020, 03:28:14 pm
automatic natural selection mode.
Yes... Darwin natural selection when plugged to that 1kW power supply!  :-DD

The use and abuse of hot melt glue is something that bothers me - when I was a young padawan doing these projects with my dad in the 80's, he taught me to properly cut your panels and attach all the mounts obeying their specifications. I somehow can't help but wonder that he would slap me in the head if I came up with something this ugly.  :scared:
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on May 01, 2020, 05:34:51 pm
I couldn't wait any longer so am going to go with the one in the video below, a comprehensive teardown and re-assembly is also included. A few of the special features it incorporates are visual continuity display, ac voltage indication, fuse free operation, one second auto power off and an automatic natural selection mode.   :-DMM :o ::)

https://youtu.be/YEfiyPFWVdg (https://youtu.be/YEfiyPFWVdg)
Best post so far!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 02, 2020, 01:51:02 am
Thanks for clarification, on photo it looks to be down on board, at the level of that screw head, touching it...

Even if it was flat on the PCB touching for the entire surface it wouldn't make a difference, the creepage distance is the same length along the PCB anyway.
That's debatable, if you look, at half of resistor creepage distance there is ground underneath the resistor. So looking at that, that is definitely half of what is resistor rated for...

No, it doesn't work like that. There is still creepage from the high voltage end to that ground plane along the PCB surface and then it has to get through the solder mask. Adding the resistor on top makes absolutely no difference to the length of that creepage path. So it makes absolutely no difference if that resistor is vertical or flat touching the PCB. I think I'll have to do a specific video on this.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on May 02, 2020, 09:55:42 am
Thanks for clarification, on photo it looks to be down on board, at the level of that screw head, touching it...

Even if it was flat on the PCB touching for the entire surface it wouldn't make a difference, the creepage distance is the same length along the PCB anyway.
That's debatable, if you look, at half of resistor creepage distance there is ground underneath the resistor. So looking at that, that is definitely half of what is resistor rated for...

No, it doesn't work like that. There is still creepage from the high voltage end to that ground plane along the PCB surface and then it has to get through the solder mask. Adding the resistor on top makes absolutely no difference to the length of that creepage path. So it makes absolutely no difference if that resistor is vertical or flat touching the PCB. I think I'll have to do a specific video on this.

You are absolutely correct. It is my English that fails me. Thank you for correcting me.  I went and took a look at verbiage..
Creepage distance is surface path distance (which in this case would be PCB and component surface), and as you say correctly, it would be the same.
I wanted to say clearance distance (distance of over the air discharge path), that is distance between (in this case) two pins of that resistor in divider, and pcb nets with exposed metal connected to it .

Problems are not that simple, when creepage and clearance start to combine (for instance if there is surface contamination or condensation).. In which case over that case you get a voltage gradient over high impedance path.. If I remember correctly, for 8kV overvoltage class min. distance is 8mm. When this SIP divider is mounted vertically, it is clear what is what and how you measure clearance distance . When mounted like this over PCB traces and ground plane, it's not so obvious.  But I'm sure that people that designed this meter know all this and took it into account. It's just unusual to see.

Another problem I encountered in practice was that with any component that is close to PCB (so pretty much any component ), condensation will tend to go under component, between PCB and component.
Especially if board is very clean, and if there is no surface wetting, condensation will tend to form into droplets, and by capillary action get sucked into tight spaces between board and component. 
We used conformal coating and/or TH construction with DIP cases and passives distanced off the board to promote drying. Nowadays, you just go smd, good conformal and you're golden.

But, I doubt anything like that will be a problem with multimeter in normal use.

Regards,
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 02, 2020, 10:06:38 am
You are absolutely correct. It is my English that fails me. Thank you for correcting me.  I went and took a look at verbiage..
Creepage distance is surface path distance (which in this case would be PCB and component surface), and as you say correctly, it would be the same.
I wanted to say clearance distance (distance of over the air discharge path), that is distance between (in this case) two pins of that resistor in divider, and pcb nets with exposed metal connected to it .

Problems are not that simple, when creepage and clearance start to combine (for instance if there is surface contamination or condensation).. In which case over that case you get a voltage gradient over high impedance path.. If I remember correctly, for 8kV overvoltage class min. distance is 8mm. When this SIP divider is mounted vertically, it is clear what is what and how you measure clearance distance . When mounted like this over PCB traces and ground plane, it's not so obvious.  But I'm sure that people that designed this meter know all this and took it into account. It's just unusual to see.

You are forgetting the solder mask is an insulator.
You are also forgetting that the input protection  limits the voltage to something in the order of 1kV or less, so the distances here are way more than required, be it creepage or clearance.

Quote
Another problem I encountered in practice was that with any component that is close to PCB (so pretty much any component ), condensation will tend to go under component, between PCB and component. Especially if board is very clean, and if there is no surface wetting, condensation will tend to form into droplets, and by capillary action get sucked into tight spaces between board and component.

If you have condensation in your multimeter then you have more things to worry about than that huge gap on your hybrid resistor divider.

Quote
But, I doubt anything like that will be a problem with multimeter in normal use.

It won't be. Sorry but you are making mountain out of a molehill here, there is absolutely no practical issue here.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on May 02, 2020, 10:09:47 am
It won't be. Sorry but you are making mountain out of a molehill here, there is absolutely no practical issue here.

I agree, as I repeated several times. I also don't think it will be problem in normal use.
I'm just making comments.
Regards,
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on May 02, 2020, 06:48:43 pm
If the various dielectric strengths could not handle the transient, maybe.   If GDTs are used, you can pretty much expect to see the full peak voltage across the network.   If its a 2KV rated part and you put 8KV across it with something near the body, I could see it breaking down.   If MOVs are used, they should be fast enough and have a low enough clamp voltage to prevent any problems but you never know.  It's always fun to try it.   

Designer may not always consider the clearances.  If you watch Dave's fencer video where he compares the Brymen  against the UEI meter, you can clearly hear the 121 breaking down where the Brymen stays silent.  From my testing, the switch contacts that enable the two series PTCs do not have enough clearance and will break down at this level.  I suspect this is what we are hearing.  Then again, I could be totally wrong.  If I had that fencer, I would repeat the test. 
 
https://youtu.be/7j5NtKB0vss?t=1019
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 18, 2020, 11:48:41 am
Update: It's still UL testing which will take until end of June. They think first mass production units in September or October.
Obviously delayed due to the woo-woo virus.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 18, 2020, 02:31:43 pm
Update: It's still UL testing which will take until end of June. They think first mass production units in September or October.
Obviously delayed due to the woo-woo virus.
So, no pictures before that then?  ::)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 19, 2020, 12:53:45 am
Update: It's still UL testing which will take until end of June. They think first mass production units in September or October.
Obviously delayed due to the woo-woo virus.
So, no pictures before that then?  ::)

Sure, here you go. It hasn't been made in EEVblog Blue yet.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 19, 2020, 12:59:30 am
Update: It's still UL testing which will take until end of June. They think first mass production units in September or October.
Obviously delayed due to the woo-woo virus.
So, no pictures before that then?  ::)

Sure, here you go. It hasn't been made in EEVblog Blue yet.

[attachimg=1]
Well played, sir. Nice that the rotary switch is switches are lower than the rubber holster.

(edit) so it is a Prova branded job. Interesting.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: evava on May 19, 2020, 08:15:45 am
Something like this Prova 803 ?
http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49  (http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Mp3 on May 19, 2020, 08:40:19 am
Would be nice to have another option with usb logging in this price range besides UNI-T  :-+
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on May 19, 2020, 08:52:06 am
Update: It's still UL testing which will take until end of June. They think first mass production units in September or October.
Obviously delayed due to the woo-woo virus.
So, no pictures before that then?  ::)

Sure, here you go. It hasn't been made in EEVblog Blue yet.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=215716.0;attach=994440;image)

Cute.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on May 19, 2020, 09:06:11 am
Would be nice to have another option with usb logging in this price range besides UNI-T  :-+

Brymen has a few models...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 19, 2020, 09:20:04 am
Something like this Prova 803 ?
http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49  (http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49)
I suspect it is unreleased, as it seems to have two rows of buttons and I don't see a meter on their product line with this. But it meets the 60000 counts and have Prova's style and arrsngement of knobs.

As Dave woukd say: give me some knobs! :-DD
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 19, 2020, 10:31:23 am
Something like this Prova 803 ?
http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49  (http://www.prova.com.tw/product_detail.asp?seq=49)
I suspect it is unreleased

Yes, I've said several times it's unreleased, still undergoing UL testing. You won't find info on this anywhere.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 19, 2020, 12:45:25 pm
Would be nice to have another option with usb logging in this price range besides UNI-T  :-+

This one does not have logging. Although I think there is potential bluetooth module footprint inside, I have not checked if it actually outputs anything yet (i..e if the user could potentially retrofit a TTL to bluetooth board)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Mp3 on May 19, 2020, 11:23:54 pm
Would be nice to have another option with usb logging in this price range besides UNI-T  :-+

This one does not have logging. Although I think there is potential bluetooth module footprint inside, I have not checked if it actually outputs anything yet (i..e if the user could potentially retrofit a TTL to bluetooth board)

would be more than happy to spend the $ on the BT module separately, for what it's worth. The uni-t's USB-serial interface works, but is far from ideal
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 20, 2020, 06:53:24 am
Just tested for serial output data from the chipset on the pin header that looks like it's for a bluetooth module and I got nothing :-(

Fixed the problem with diode mode though, they just forgot to cal it. An internal jumper enables cal mode.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 21, 2020, 11:27:17 pm
Battery current measured at 4mA, and cutoff voltage is 3.55V for 3xAAA's. Has to be 3.55V because there is a 3.5V reg inside. Those playing along at home can do battery life estimations.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: sequoia on May 21, 2020, 11:57:22 pm
Battery current measured at 4mA, and cutoff voltage is 3.55V for 3xAAA's. Has to be 3.55V because there is a 3.5V reg inside. Those playing along at home can do battery life estimations.

So, shouldn't have "over voltage" problem (like BM235) when using Lithium AAA's?

 
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: HKJ on May 22, 2020, 04:43:26 am
Battery current measured at 4mA, and cutoff voltage is 3.55V for 3xAAA's. Has to be 3.55V because there is a 3.5V reg inside. Those playing along at home can do battery life estimations.

That would be about 250 hours with Duracell Alkaline, 300 with Energizer Lithium and about 170 with eneloop.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: bluey on May 22, 2020, 08:30:06 pm
Cyrustek???
60,000 count chip is few years old, so a new model not listed? Nearest i can find is this one.
http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51997.pdf (http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51997.pdf)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 23, 2020, 05:45:57 am
Cyrustek???
60,000 count chip is few years old, so a new model not listed? Nearest i can find is this one.
http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51997.pdf (http://www.cyrustek.com.tw/spec/ES51997.pdf)

Nope, this one does 5 readings per second.

And I'm seriously thinking they took cues from the Fluke 77 IV, it's practically the same size, shape and case design. But it's electronics oriented and better in practically every way.

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: RedSky on May 23, 2020, 06:28:18 am
Okay you have me interested.

I have an old school UNI-T UT70D and a Brymen 867S, 80,000 count & 500,000 count respectively and they still test accurately within their specs according to my cheap voltage reference, it would however be nice to have a third accurate Multimeter at times to compare against the other two if they are showing different readings and be within the birthday budget  ;)

What sort of bandwidth are we talking here 100kHz?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on May 23, 2020, 08:30:39 am
When it comes to accuracy, the Brymen 867S is a 50,000 count meter (3%+2 LSD) and the UT70D, 8,000 count.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 23, 2020, 09:20:00 am
What sort of bandwidth are we talking here 100kHz?

7KHz.
There is higher model that goes to 100KHz but I won't be offering that.
I haven't tested how far beyond 7KHz it goes, but it's unspecified above that.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on May 23, 2020, 12:43:14 pm

What's the current go for the sub US$150 meter market in terms of 60,000 counts, 0.05% DC, as good as 0.06% ohms, and 0.075% current?

0.075% for DC current is impressive and probably unique at that price point. How many LSD are we talking about for that accuracy?
As for the market, the old 40,000 count UniTrend UT-71C (DC mV 0.25%+5) comes to mind at 160$, albeit without a UL listing and proper protection.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000026113182.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6b1c8fdaEi1rcj&algo_pvid=ea55e860-77e3-4c6e-9b5b-56a26a52f424&algo_expid=ea55e860-77e3-4c6e-9b5b-56a26a52f424-25&btsid=0ab6fb8815902395752974436e830b&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_ (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000026113182.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.6b1c8fdaEi1rcj&algo_pvid=ea55e860-77e3-4c6e-9b5b-56a26a52f424&algo_expid=ea55e860-77e3-4c6e-9b5b-56a26a52f424-25&btsid=0ab6fb8815902395752974436e830b&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: bluey on May 23, 2020, 09:41:45 pm
So probably a new Brymen BM840 series. Specs and form factor less than BM850 series single board. Chip maybe similar to BM860 series - similar accuracy but lower counts.

In the market, it seems to get better than 0.1% basic DC accuracy in a name brand you end up in the precision class double USD150 or more. Most ranges other than DCV end up an order of magnitude less accurate than DCV. Presume the cost of a precision divider network is the price constraint.

Doesn’t make sense to me that electrical protection should cost a lot - design and parts aren’t that expensive. Ingress protection takes a bit more engineering. Look how many years/decades it takes to get environmental protection into phones and cameras. Hioki pocket DMMs are IP42.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on May 23, 2020, 10:56:41 pm
The new yellow is red  lolll

I see 8 buttons functions  with one yellow  top left ...

And the inputs are like a V  not in  line,  like  a Sanwa    ... damn  i've seen a design like this .....   kinda look like an old techtronix 912 914 916 series, or Kioritsu ???
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Caliaxy on May 23, 2020, 11:14:52 pm
What sort of bandwidth are we talking here 100kHz?

7KHz.

Disappointing... so what exactly is this meter supposed to do better than the Amazon Commercial/CEM 90DM890 that sold until recently for under $140?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on May 24, 2020, 01:32:16 am
What sort of bandwidth are we talking here 100kHz?

7KHz.

Disappointing... so what exactly is this meter supposed to do better than the Amazon Commercial/CEM 90DM890 that sold until recently for under $140?
Looking at the price of the Amazon meter now, it may have been a limited fire sale to test the waters. That or they will make this a "hot product" when they come up with their seasonal sales.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 24, 2020, 06:34:50 am
In the market, it seems to get better than 0.1% basic DC accuracy in a name brand you end up in the precision class double USD150 or more. Most ranges other than DCV end up an order of magnitude less accurate than DCV. Presume the cost of a precision divider network is the price constraint.

This one has a precision divider network, I posted a photo of it.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on May 24, 2020, 06:58:01 am
When will we see some more photos?

Ones showing interesting stuff .... like the front.   ;D
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 24, 2020, 07:11:34 am
What sort of bandwidth are we talking here 100kHz?
7KHz.
Disappointing... so what exactly is this meter supposed to do better than the Amazon Commercial/CEM 90DM890 that sold until recently for under $140?

Err, 10KHz on the 90DM890 is just as disappointing.
And you can't compare a fire sale price to a normal retail price. Where can you buy the 90D890 for $140 now and in the future?

But what extra does it have? From what I gather:
60,000 count vs 50,000 count
EF testing
Slim, not some big hulking thing
Real batteries and LCD with hundreds of hours life vs lithium ion rechargable and colour dot matrix.
Proper UL testing
Better DCV, ohms and DCA accuracy.
AutoHold
Visual continuity

But you can't compare the two though, they aren't in the same category.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 24, 2020, 07:15:48 am
What's the current go for the sub US$150 meter market in terms of 60,000 counts, 0.05% DC, as good as 0.06% ohms, and 0.075% current?
0.075% for DC current is impressive and probably unique at that price point. How many LSD are we talking about for that accuracy?

+20 counts.
So better than say a Brymen BM869S
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on May 24, 2020, 12:55:13 pm
Slightly better, unless your meter has a 60uA range  :)

At the bottom of the 600uA range, accuracy will be virtually the same (+20).
At the top of the range, measuring, say 450uA, will give you a maximum error of 450.54 instead of 450.88 uA.
I don't think it makes a big difference in the real world, unfortunately.

The UT71C/D  claims an accuracy of 0.10%+15 on the 400uA range, but that might be optimistic, according to my other meters. It could be out of calibration after 6 years. (Actually, after nulling offset currents, the accuracy is in the ballpark)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on May 24, 2020, 02:26:42 pm
Why does it has to be a fight each time over specs  loll    the "150$  Class meter"  tells all ...

I look forward to see what this meter can do and can't do.  Surely there will be some teardown and maybe some tests reviews ??


There' s a lot of speculations ...   down to the last digit   loll       just wait and see,   i'm sure  "we"   will get all the specs one day or the other.


Even for myself,    i tend to go overboard,  i have Gossen 28 and 29s meters, paid a fortune for them, and i wish they could do more  loll  faster  loll  Never satisfed i may be.


I saw only one  meter brand go up to a "real" 80,000 count,  but wasn't very well "featured"  not the Vichy / Victor bench meters, a hand held meter.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 02:01:08 am
Why does it has to be a fight each time over specs  loll    the "150$  Class meter"  tells all ...

Yup, it's not designed to set the world on fire, just another meter at yet another feature/price point. The tightness of the current spec did surprise me a bit at this price point though. I do wonder if that was a design goal or whether it just happened to pop out of some new component(s) choice.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on May 25, 2020, 07:55:57 am
There is no fight. Everybody hopes Dave does well with this meter too.
For that to happen, it has to be at least equal or better than what is on the market already.
Low current measurement is good, but probably not enough to pull ahead decisively by itself.
I compared the released specs to the similarly priced UT71C, because I know it reasonably well.
For most, the UL listing will be the deciding factor (as it should), so the meter should be successful, even if the specs don't set the world on fire.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Muttley Snickers on May 25, 2020, 08:27:25 am
Some people may not need a high degree of accuracy but instead require good reliability and consistency. Others may require specific features or functions for routine testing or repairs. I remember the first meter I bought that had the ability to record minimum and maximum values and I found it so useful that I swore never to buy another meter which did not have min/max. Then I bought a meter which had autohold and I swore never buy another meter which did not have min/max and autohold. Then I got into logging and got in trouble for swearing too much.   :-DMM ;D 
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on May 25, 2020, 08:43:33 am
Serves you right.     ;D

I get by through the age-old process of lowering my expectations, which tends to work well with my budgetary constraints.  Then Bean throws a spanner in the works by pointing out things of interest.......
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: evava on May 25, 2020, 09:18:52 am
If we are talking about $150 then we are talking about Brymen857/867 so the big competition already exists  :-DMM
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: RedSky on May 25, 2020, 10:02:17 am
If we are talking about $150 then we are talking about Brymen857/867 so the big competition already exists  :-DMM

Actually that's true the Brymen 867S is available from a European site for $146USD (not including GST & shipping)

Dave - did you ever consider selling the 867S?  It's actually not easy to get hold of in large parts of the World (i.e USA & Australia) and it's an excellent meter.   
While it's similar in some specs to the 121GW, it doesn't have the connectivity, hacakability, or low burden abilities so not quite a direct competitor.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on May 25, 2020, 10:23:14 am
That would be USD180.00 with the VAT, with only 5 in stock!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: bluey on May 25, 2020, 10:57:58 am
In the market, it seems to get better than 0.1% basic DC accuracy in a name brand you end up in the precision class double USD150 or more. Most ranges other than DCV end up an order of magnitude less accurate than DCV. Presume the cost of a precision divider network is the price constraint.

This one has a precision divider network, I posted a photo of it.

I had seen that. 0.05% accuracy precision divider networks seem hard to find. Did they manage to find a low cost supplier??? Or do they manage some clever digital correction with a lower accuracy divider network??

Only 0.05% divider network i can find so far in similar form factor is US66.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 12:00:43 pm
Low current measurement is good, but probably not enough to pull ahead decisively by itself.

It does not have low current measure, not sure where you got that idea from. 600.00uA range only.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on May 25, 2020, 12:02:32 pm
Are you going to run it through the dial-grinding machine?

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 12:16:54 pm
Actually that's true the Brymen 867S is available from a European site for $146USD (not including GST & shipping)
Dave - did you ever consider selling the 867S?  It's actually not easy to get hold of in large parts of the World (i.e USA & Australia) and it's an excellent meter.   

Wasn't possible. Brymen are crazy loyal to their local suppliers, which is why Brymen meters are hard to get in many locations. I can't sell most released Brymen meters because their "official" Australian distributor Cabac get an exclusive deal, even if they are absolutely useless and hardly sell any. Go try buy a Brymen from the local Australian distributor and they send you a quote  ::)
Only if they reject to carry a model, or I get in first am I able to sell it. I only got the BM235 because I was involved very early on and even helped out with the development a bit.
I wanted to sell the BM869 but wasn't allowed.
But I'm not that keen on the 867/869 anyway because it's just too big.

I considered the new BM839/836, but it was only 20,000 count and didn't seem that exciting.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 12:18:51 pm
I had seen that. 0.05% accuracy precision divider networks seem hard to find. Did they manage to find a low cost supplier??? Or do they manage some clever digital correction with a lower accuracy divider network??

No idea. I presume they found a low cost supplier to do a custom job. Maybe it's work it's way into other future models.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 12:33:58 pm
If we are talking about $150 then we are talking about Brymen857/867 so the big competition already exists  :-DMM

Func  Mystery     BM867S
DCV   0.03%+2  0.03%+2
ACV   0.5%+30  0.8%+60 but hard to compare as different ranges. 7Khz vs 20KHz
Ohm  0.085%+4 0.1%+6
Diode 3V           2V
Cont   Visual      No visual
Cap    1%+10    0.8%+3
DCA    0.075%+20   0.1%+20    Mystery has slightly lower burden and better specs across more ranges
Temp  Yes          No
EF      Yes          No
AutoHold   Yes   No
Count  60,000   50,000
Phy     Slim       Big hulk
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on May 25, 2020, 12:41:12 pm
Are you going to run it through the dial-grinding machine?

Not when there is only one in existence.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: mansaxel on June 08, 2020, 05:53:53 am
The use and abuse of hot melt glue is something that bothers me

The first time I saw cable installation by hotsnoot I had a fit. Alarm company at my parents house, late 90s. Apparently, it was and probably is a thing in that business, unless they're completely over on the spreading-dung-in-the-ISM-band wireless now.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on June 08, 2020, 10:16:36 am
The use and abuse of hot melt glue is something that bothers me

The first time I saw cable installation by hotsnoot I had a fit. Alarm company at my parents house, late 90s. Apparently, it was and probably is a thing in that business, unless they're completely over on the spreading-dung-in-the-ISM-band wireless now.
Wow, for cable installation is really cheap job. It gives massive headaches if you (the user) need to do any sort of maintenance on the wiring in the future.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: AVGresponding on June 08, 2020, 05:07:28 pm
The use and abuse of hot melt glue is something that bothers me

The first time I saw cable installation by hotsnoot I had a fit. Alarm company at my parents house, late 90s. Apparently, it was and probably is a thing in that business, unless they're completely over on the spreading-dung-in-the-ISM-band wireless now.
Wow, for cable installation is really cheap job. It gives massive headaches if you (the user) need to do any sort of maintenance on the wiring in the future.

Not to mention the fact that if the wire heats up due to a fault, the glue will melt and allow it flap freely in the breeze.

Metal P-clips or GTFO
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ggchab on June 08, 2020, 05:26:56 pm
I am really wondering how the new multimeter will be able to fix all these hot melt glue issues  :-DD
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on June 08, 2020, 06:06:37 pm
I am really wondering how the new multimeter will be able to fix all these hot melt glue issues  :-DD

I guess we'll find out at some point.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on July 20, 2020, 11:04:39 am
Just got the final FOB price for the new meter.
Yep, more than capable of selling it for under $150.
I've got to decide whether or not to include the magnetic hanger as standard though. It's 5.4% extra on the FOB price, which is not a no-brainer like the silicone leads.
Do people use these magnetic hangers?
Although this unit is technically more "electrical" oriented than the BM235 and 121GW, it's likely to be sold primarily for electronics work I suspect.
I'm more inclined to make the hanger optional.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: umbro on July 20, 2020, 01:25:00 pm
¨I'm more inclined to make the hanger optional¨ +1 :-+
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on July 20, 2020, 01:44:25 pm
¨I'm more inclined to make the hanger optional¨ +1 :-+
Another +1 for this.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Monkeh on July 20, 2020, 02:04:52 pm
More electrically oriented than a meter with no-contact voltage and a phase rotation variant? The BM235 is pretty electrically oriented..
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on July 20, 2020, 02:32:59 pm
I personally like hangers and feel they would have saved me quite a few times, but don't use them as often simply because I couldn't be bothered to spend the extra money to buy the accessory.

The included hanger becomes about $7~8 FOB, thus it may give a bad impression if the overall price goes over $150 if bundled. On the other hand, hangers are more tightly coupled with the equipment (in contrast to leads or holsters, for example) and it may make business sense if it brings a sense of completeness to the product offer - nice probes, hanger, a nice holster... Bonus points for alligator clips, probe lights...  :-DD

Also, sometimes OEMs give extra perks (as price breaks) the more accessories you include, but you didn't allude to that. 

The hanger sold separately will surely be more expensive than $7~8, which will reduce the number of sold hangers and therefore it may not be advantageous to even carry them in your store (too much hassle, expensive international shipping, etc.).
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: bc888 on July 20, 2020, 03:23:43 pm


Hanger = optional.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on July 20, 2020, 05:52:41 pm
I have hanger for Brymen and used it once, to see how it works..
Many cabinets I work on are stainless steel  and non magnetic  :palm:
I would go with optional.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on July 20, 2020, 06:02:26 pm
People who need hangers are going to buy Flukes.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Monkeh on July 20, 2020, 06:09:01 pm
People who need hangers are going to buy Flukes.

Or Megger, or Kewtech, or Fieldpiece, or some other industry-specific brand.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on July 21, 2020, 02:36:55 am
More electrically oriented than a meter with no-contact voltage and a phase rotation variant? The BM235 is pretty electrically oriented..

True, but this one is high CAT rating and has AutoHold. And it's clearly designed to look like and compete against the Fluke 70 series (but with electronics capability)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on July 21, 2020, 02:40:34 am
The included hanger becomes about $7~8 FOB, thus it may give a bad impression if the overall price goes over $150 if bundled. On the other hand, hangers are more tightly coupled with the equipment (in contrast to leads or holsters, for example) and it may make business sense if it brings a sense of completeness to the product offer - nice probes, hanger, a nice holster... Bonus points for alligator clips, probe lights...  :-DD

I don't have a case for this yet, my existing BM235/121GW doesn't fit. So yeah, kinda agree it has to be all or nothing.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 05, 2020, 09:25:05 am
It's getting closer.
The over-mold case compared to the BM235 holster.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 06, 2020, 08:47:02 am
Just got the final FOB price for the new meter.
Yep, more than capable of selling it for under $150.
This is sounding interesting I may have to go back and read the entire thread.
Quote
I've got to decide whether or not to include the magnetic hanger as standard though. It's 5.4% extra on the FOB price, which is not a no-brainer like the silicone leads.
Do people use these magnetic hangers?
I possibly would.   I run around a large plant with a Fluke clamp on ammeter / multi meter and often use that clamp to hang the meter in a panel box.   Yes the find current probe clamp gets reduced to a meter hanger.   However the bigger problem with magnetic hangers is simply find a place to stick them in a panel box, the equipment I work on is dense to say the least.   So I might suggest that a magnetic holder isn't universally useful it would get used where there is a place to stick it but that is not always the case.

A better solution to the magnetic holder might be a totally non metallic strap with a non metallic clip/buckle or carabiner.  Something like these straps: https://www.rei.com/product/848428/redpoint-1-webbing-straps-with-side-release-buckles-package-of-2 (https://www.rei.com/product/848428/redpoint-1-webbing-straps-with-side-release-buckles-package-of-2)   The nice thing about such straps is that you can wrap them around round things like pipe, wire bundles in a panel box, ladder rungs, door knobs or whatever.   Further if the interface to the meter is correct you can make up a strap system of any length you might need.   You can achieve the same thing with Velcro (hook and Loop) backed straps like these: https://www.rei.com/product/848430/redpoint-sport-wrap-package-of-2 (https://www.rei.com/product/848430/redpoint-sport-wrap-package-of-2)   In both cases we have a completely non metallic solution that will work in may instances.

Now such straps will not solve every meter hanging need and in some instances a magnet would be the right solution.   In such cases I'd consider offering up a magnet solution that is a purchasable add on item.   ideally it would work with the hanging straps already included.

In case you are wondering in the industrial world finding a place to park your meter is actually a real problem.   It is even a bigger issue if you have to climb a ladder or up on top of a big tool to get where the electronics are.
Quote
Although this unit is technically more "electrical" oriented than the BM235 and 121GW, it's likely to be sold primarily for electronics work I suspect.
I'm more inclined to make the hanger optional.
These days "electrical" is often "electronics".   Ideally the meter will have a way to cleanly attach a strap to it.   That would solve a lot of problems for many people.   A lot of meters or their rubber boots don't allow for hanging.   Often there is not even a place to run string through.   If the meter or its rubber boot simply provides for a way to attach a strap or rope we can take it for there.  Oh this is important, the hanging position needs to be such that the meter doesn't point downward.   It doesn't do anyone any good if the face of the meter is pointing downwards like a shy girl embarrassed by your observation of her beauty.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 06, 2020, 09:21:48 am
For those of use on a no Alkaline bender I'm really hoping that this meter has no problems with the various rechargeable or lithium battery solutions.   In fact if you have any influence at this stage of development it would be nice to have official confirmation that the various forms of lithium AAA batteries will not be a problem.

This is sounding more and more like a very nice meter that I might want to have.  If you could provide a bit more info on the temperature measuring capabilities that would be most welcomed.   One point here is will it linearize J and K type thermocouples or are we stuck with a solid state sensor.

With this virus going about I'm not even sure if my current job will exists by the time the meter ships but I'm very interested.   Unlike many here I see a great little middle of the road solution.   Just hoping that as more info comes out it remains looking appealing.

By the way I just read about the blue tooth module foot print (reading the thread backwards) and must say that is sad news.   It is probably expecting too much to try to get the manufacture to make the foot print active.

Battery current measured at 4mA, and cutoff voltage is 3.55V for 3xAAA's. Has to be 3.55V because there is a 3.5V reg inside. Those playing along at home can do battery life estimations.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 06, 2020, 11:06:40 am
For those of use on a no Alkaline bender I'm really hoping that this meter has no problems with the various rechargeable or lithium battery solutions.   In fact if you have any influence at this stage of development it would be nice to have official confirmation that the various forms of lithium AAA batteries will not be a problem.

I'll ask. Could test it myself of course, but nice to have official confirmation.

Quote
This is sounding more and more like a very nice meter that I might want to have.  If you could provide a bit more info on the temperature measuring capabilities that would be most welcomed.   One point here is will it linearize J and K type thermocouples or are we stuck with a solid state sensor.

Standard K-Type.

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 06, 2020, 11:40:50 am
These days "electrical" is often "electronics".   Ideally the meter will have a way to cleanly attach a strap to it.   That would solve a lot of problems for many people.   A lot of meters or their rubber boots don't allow for hanging.   Often there is not even a place to run string through.   If the meter or its rubber boot simply provides for a way to attach a strap or rope we can take it for there.

Yep. A slot that can take some nylon webbing would be great. No proprietary slots or special clips.

Oh this is important, the hanging position needs to be such that the meter doesn't point downward.   It doesn't do anyone any good if the face of the meter is pointing downwards like a shy girl embarrassed by your observation of her beauty.

That's an interesting metaphor...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on August 06, 2020, 01:18:26 pm
Is this your multimeter, Wizard?

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 07, 2020, 12:26:55 am
These days "electrical" is often "electronics".   Ideally the meter will have a way to cleanly attach a strap to it.   That would solve a lot of problems for many people.   A lot of meters or their rubber boots don't allow for hanging.   Often there is not even a place to run string through.   If the meter or its rubber boot simply provides for a way to attach a strap or rope we can take it for there.

Yep. A slot that can take some nylon webbing would be great. No proprietary slots or special clips.

Oh this is important, the hanging position needs to be such that the meter doesn't point downward.   It doesn't do anyone any good if the face of the meter is pointing downwards like a shy girl embarrassed by your observation of her beauty.

That's an interesting metaphor...

If you have ever climbed up a ladder or over a large tool and struggle to find a place to hang your meter you will understand.   I seems like the world is working against you to ever let you easily see that meter screen.    As for the face of the meter looking at the ground, I can't even count the number of times I've reached for the meters chin to turn the face of the meter up so that I can actually see the meters pretty  display.   This is a lot like trying to get a blushing teenage girl to look you in the eye, the only difference is you can't talk the meter into looking at you.

By the way this is one reason why I'd love to see a DMM that has a rotating display.   Imagine a Nikon Speedlight with the rotating head optimized for the meters display.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Brumby on August 07, 2020, 02:16:08 am
By the way this is one reason why I'd love to see a DMM that has a rotating display.   Imagine a Nikon Speedlight with the rotating head optimized for the meters display.
Ooof!  :o

You'll be paying for that little feature!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 08, 2020, 04:06:39 am
By the way this is one reason why I'd love to see a DMM that has a rotating display.   Imagine a Nikon Speedlight with the rotating head optimized for the meters display.
Ooof!  :o

You'll be paying for that little feature!

Yes I know but honestly it would be more useful than a lot of features I've see on instruments.   The combination of finding a place to put your meter or hang it, and then have that meter be visible to you is a constant problem for people in industry.   You end all over a machine looking for shorts or opens or whatever and then the meter is suddenly not visible, well its screen isn't.

Which brings up another important feature big fat digits and a strong back light!   Seriously this was a huge advancement when meters started improving in this area.   In fact I'd take big bright digits over lots of digits almost anytime for general diagnostic work.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on August 08, 2020, 05:36:19 am
Which brings up another important feature big fat digits and a strong back light!   Seriously this was a huge advancement when meters started improving in this area.   In fact I'd take big bright digits over lots of digits almost anytime for general diagnostic work.
This is something that makes the 87V a more pleasing meter when compared to its more advanced cousin 189.

Regarding backlight, I think that Keysight and its orange glow are the best among the meters I have tested. I have a U1282A with that glow. I also have a U1273A - this one with its OLED display wins hands down in visibility indoors.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 08, 2020, 11:57:53 am
Which brings up another important feature big fat digits and a strong back light!   Seriously this was a huge advancement when meters started improving in this area.   In fact I'd take big bright digits over lots of digits almost anytime for general diagnostic work.

This one has big digits, but don't recall if same size as the BM235, I think it is, will have to check when back in the lab.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on August 08, 2020, 12:35:33 pm
Keysight orange glow ??? erk  never loved that color,  it does'nt offer a good contrast in certain situations, can't see the digit from distance,  a light yellow / green or light blue is more efficient

The brymen 857s  was fun to read,  the Fluke 189 arent bad, but the light is not well diffused, you see two big led spots on the right  loll
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 08, 2020, 12:41:05 pm
Yes I know but honestly it would be more useful than a lot of features I've see on instruments.   The combination of finding a place to put your meter or hang it, and then have that meter be visible to you is a constant problem for people in industry.

Get a Fluke 233 and strap the display to your wrist:

https://www.fluke.com/en/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-233 (https://www.fluke.com/en/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-233)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 08, 2020, 03:19:42 pm
Yes I know but honestly it would be more useful than a lot of features I've see on instruments.   The combination of finding a place to put your meter or hang it, and then have that meter be visible to you is a constant problem for people in industry.
Get a Fluke 233 and strap the display to your wrist:
I was thinking with some of the meters, you could send the data to your Apple watch. 
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 08, 2020, 04:19:34 pm
Get a Fluke 233 and strap the display to your wrist:
I was thinking with some of the meters, you could send the data to your Apple watch.

I was thinking that, too, but it probably won't happen so long as Fluke can make money by selling you yellow watches.

The 233 seems a bit of a swing/miss for Fluke. They went to all that trouble then forgot to make it wearable.

I'm sure I've seen lots of meters which hang around your neck and you can look down at the display.

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 08, 2020, 04:37:49 pm
I don't think it would be too much of a problem to make a small remote reader.  Finding a meter with wireless that an industrial electrician would use on the other hand.  Are you going to take the certified  121G?   The UT181A?  The OWON?    What about that Gossen Ultra (or what ever they are now calling it)?     

The other problem is how do you keep it simple enough for them to make use of it.   You want something that you turn it on and it just works.  You wouldn't want to be trying to sort out why your watch doesn't connect to your meter when you are trying to get the job done. 

That Fluke may be the best choice out there today.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: No.15 on August 08, 2020, 06:03:24 pm
A meter that's not to big physically but with a great screen I can see with giant numbers for 150 would be an instant sale for me.  I love my Bryman 869s but it's to big physically and my old style fluke 77 is starting to have major issues.


Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on August 09, 2020, 12:49:23 am
I don't think it would be too much of a problem to make a small remote reader.  Finding a meter with wireless that an industrial electrician would use on the other hand.  Are you going to take the certified  121G?   The UT181A?  The OWON?    What about that Gossen Ultra (or what ever they are now calling it)?     

The other problem is how do you keep it simple enough for them to make use of it.   You want something that you turn it on and it just works.  You wouldn't want to be trying to sort out why your watch doesn't connect to your meter when you are trying to get the job done. 

That Fluke may be the best choice out there today.
IIRC, the 233 uses Zigbee or a proprietary algorithm with a much simpler authentication/validation protocol.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 09, 2020, 01:14:49 am
That CEM DT9939 is also really simple but being so simple,  I'm not sure how it would handle several meters all talking at once.   I don't remember the meters having a unique identifier like Bluetooth and Ethernet. 

Maybe we could buy some cheap Google heads up glasses coupled with that funny pen meter that was all the rage.... 

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: maginnovision on August 09, 2020, 02:06:26 am
Always have the U1115A that works for most of their meters.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: sleemanj on August 09, 2020, 09:14:51 am
Re magnetic hangar.  Make sure you think about shipping issues with magnets.  I wound up with a box-of-meters without magnets once because of shipping problems.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: MiroS on August 10, 2020, 08:36:39 am
I think there is always a good thing if new product is on the market, but if this rebranded one  than I would always prefere solid shop with good reputation. There must be a respected producer/service  behind otherwise I would not pay 150 for something I can grab localy and at lower price and protected by EU law.

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 10, 2020, 05:26:14 pm
Fluke has an interesting concept here and I actually thought about going that route once.   However the price tag is well over 2X the costs of what is being described here.   For out fitting my personal lab the Fluke is hard to justify.   

Yes I know but honestly it would be more useful than a lot of features I've see on instruments.   The combination of finding a place to put your meter or hang it, and then have that meter be visible to you is a constant problem for people in industry.

Get a Fluke 233 and strap the display to your wrist:

https://www.fluke.com/en/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-233 (https://www.fluke.com/en/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-233)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 10, 2020, 05:27:57 pm
Fluke has an interesting concept here and I actually thought about going that route once.   However the price tag is well over 2X the costs of what is being described here.   For out fitting my personal lab the Fluke is hard to justify.   

It's not a "lab" multimeter. It's a meter for people who go to job sites.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 10, 2020, 05:28:40 pm
Yes I know but honestly it would be more useful than a lot of features I've see on instruments.   The combination of finding a place to put your meter or hang it, and then have that meter be visible to you is a constant problem for people in industry.
Get a Fluke 233 and strap the display to your wrist:
I was thinking with some of the meters, you could send the data to your Apple watch.

Is that a real thing???    I have not seen watch integration advertised anywhere.   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 10, 2020, 05:33:54 pm
Fluke has an interesting concept here and I actually thought about going that route once.   However the price tag is well over 2X the costs of what is being described here.   For out fitting my personal lab the Fluke is hard to justify.   

It's not a "lab" multimeter. It's a meter for people who go to job sites.

There are few labs that don't have a handheld meter.   Further unless my body goes completely to hell I expect to be using it portable for some time.   

So far what I'm looking at or why I'm looking at this meter is that it has the chops to be suitable on the bench and on site.    It is a good way to balance capability against cost for and for the personal lab cost is everything.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2020, 10:45:02 am
For those of use on a no Alkaline bender I'm really hoping that this meter has no problems with the various rechargeable or lithium battery solutions.   In fact if you have any influence at this stage of development it would be nice to have official confirmation that the various forms of lithium AAA batteries will not be a problem.
I'll ask. Could test it myself of course, but nice to have official confirmation.

Confirmed, Lithium AAA's no problem.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 11, 2020, 10:52:23 am
Which brings up another important feature big fat digits and a strong back light!   Seriously this was a huge advancement when meters started improving in this area.   In fact I'd take big bright digits over lots of digits almost anytime for general diagnostic work.

This one has big digits, but don't recall if same size as the BM235, I think it is, will have to check when back in the lab.

Not as big as the BM235, 19mm vs 21mm digits.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/us$150-class-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=1044850;image)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on August 11, 2020, 11:21:01 am
@Dave

Do you have some specs spreadsheet to resume the meter capabilities ??

thks   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: MiroS on August 11, 2020, 04:15:23 pm
Hmm, screen looks like SANWA. If I am not wrong they use Brymen technology.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 12, 2020, 04:44:30 am
This meter is looking pretty good.   Now my bank account is talking to me because I've been looking for a communications receiver maybe even a Ham rig.   There doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground when it comes to communications receivers these days.

In any event Dave, looking forward to the day when you can spill all the specs and other info.  At the moment it is sounding rather good.   By the way I'm surprised that they are using triple "A" batteries in the unit, must be a very modern low power design.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on August 12, 2020, 05:37:10 am
@Dave
Do you have some specs spreadsheet to resume the meter capabilities ??

Yes, he does...  :-DMM

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2020, 06:26:51 am
Update on the bluetooth option, they have "some technical issues to overcome" and have no ETA on that.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on August 12, 2020, 08:19:10 am
Here is another multimeter with 3 AAA batteries from a German company that you probably never heard of: Testo

https://www.testo.com/en-ZA/testo-760-3/p/0590-7603 (https://www.testo.com/en-ZA/testo-760-3/p/0590-7603)

(https://static-int.testo.com/media/67/9a/55e13acf1a97/testo-760-3-1000V-p-in-oth-005893_master.jpg)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 12, 2020, 11:15:11 am
Here is another multimeter with 3 AAA batteries from a German company that you probably never heard of: Testo


I thought they had sent Dave a large box of their products.  He spent a few minutes looking at one and that was pretty much it.  I wondered if these suffer with the same problems at the Gossen Ultra. 



Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 12, 2020, 11:26:38 am
Here is another multimeter with 3 AAA batteries from a German company that you probably never heard of: Testo
I thought they had sent Dave a large box of their products.  He spent a few minutes looking at one and that was pretty much it.

12 minutes actually, including teardown

https://youtu.be/n-pZHhqP4XU?t=720
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: joeqsmith on August 12, 2020, 11:43:05 am
I assume those are latching and without the shield could change states like the Gossen Ultra.   Maybe they have feedback to detect the state of the relay, unlike the Gossen.   I would have liked to have seen you do more with them but I certainly understand that it takes time.   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on August 12, 2020, 02:21:18 pm
I hadn't seen that particular video.

2 small corrections:
The probe tip CAT IV shrouds do come off.
AC or DC Volt/Amp can be chosen as default on power up by pressing Min Max in auto mode.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on August 14, 2020, 12:06:27 am
check this thread and video

Mystery blue eevblog meter ???  loll

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-eevblog-multimeter/msg3187718/?topicseen#msg3187718 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-eevblog-multimeter/msg3187718/?topicseen#msg3187718)


Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 14, 2020, 12:27:54 am
More info on the bluetooth and firmware.

"Firmware update will need Custom-made Programmer. I have informed related colleagues to get the quote and lead time.

"There are still some Bluetooth technical issues for us to overcome Current xxxxx models may not be able to add BT module directly to be xxxxxBT models (xxxxx models with BT interface capability). Current xxxxx circuits may be in need of being modified to accommodate BT module."

So not as flexible as I was hoping  :(
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on August 14, 2020, 01:38:54 am
So, I am curious now: it seems there are two models then? Or is it just one where you are trying to shoehorn a BT module in it? Sorry if you replied to this earlier, but this has been a crazy year and anything older than one month quickly fades.

If two models, is the $150 with or without BT?
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 14, 2020, 05:31:40 am
So, I am curious now: it seems there are two models then? Or is it just one where you are trying to shoehorn a BT module in it? Sorry if you replied to this earlier, but this has been a crazy year and anything older than one month quickly fades.
If two models, is the $150 with or without BT?

There are two different meters. The $150 one will definitely happen as I have placed an order. It does not come with Bluetooth. I was hoping it would have the capability to user retrofit a module, but that doesn't seem to be the case. There will eventually be a Bluetooth version of this meter, and maybe I'll eventually carry that instead, but that seems to be some time off. The non-BT version will be released first.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on August 16, 2020, 04:51:02 am
Update on the bluetooth option, they have "some technical issues to overcome" and have no ETA on that.

This is the first that I've actually even considered the value of Bluetooth on a multimeter.   The more that I think about it, the more I might end up  putting it on my must have list.

As for the other meter floating about your site, the "non contact voltage detection" could also end up n the must have list.   As much as I like Fluke, the reality is they seem to be feature stingy.   As long as the features are useful, they can drive people to alternative vendors.   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 16, 2020, 05:08:03 am
As for the other meter floating about your site, the "non contact voltage detection" could also end up n the must have list.   As much as I like Fluke, the reality is they seem to be feature stingy.   As long as the features are useful, they can drive people to alternative vendors.

I use the NCV on the BM235, it's quite handy.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: mansaxel on August 16, 2020, 06:54:48 am
Update on the bluetooth option, they have "some technical issues to overcome" and have no ETA on that.

This is the first that I've actually even considered the value of Bluetooth on a multimeter.   The more that I think about it, the more I might end up  putting it on my must have list.

As for the other meter floating about your site, the "non contact voltage detection" could also end up n the must have list.   As much as I like Fluke, the reality is they seem to be feature stingy.   As long as the features are useful, they can drive people to alternative vendors.

Fluke does have a model with something along the lines of NCV; aimed at electricians. I've not tested it, but it has received a fair deal of angry words from people who think it is unsafe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aSde8X5JU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7aSde8X5JU).

To be fair, not everyone agrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPNvw1xR-I0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPNvw1xR-I0)

Edit: bleeping Youtube plugin finding links and doing embeds.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Mp3 on August 16, 2020, 08:03:42 am
Hoping this is able to be released relatively soon... The need for a BT capable multimeter is real! :clap:

My main use case for BT is logging, I assume that is what others would be doing too but better to know than to guess.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on August 16, 2020, 08:13:10 am
Fluke has the NCV feature on the 117, with 2 sensitivity modes.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: AVGresponding on August 16, 2020, 09:22:43 am
My UT139C has an NCV, my Fluke 87V does not. Guess what I use for NCV testing?

That's right, my Fluke VoltAlert voltstick.

When you've a bundle of 50+ cables in some trunking, getting a full size hand-held meter inside, and onto one specific cable is not a realistic proposition. A voltstick is small enough to do this.

It's about using the right tool for the job, and I'd bet 99% of people who aren't electricians but are using NCV, get a false sense of safety from using one. They have their limitations, and in all honesty even most of the sparkies I know don't use them correctly. I frequently have to remind people to prove them prior to each use.

I like AvE's videos, but he's not an electrician or EE. Nevertheless I have an instinctive distrust of those T6's, as it seems to me they've introduced the potential for a dangerous user error mode. This vid gets straight to the point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsRwQIuTNmE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsRwQIuTNmE)

I'll stick to my T5, thanks.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on August 16, 2020, 09:46:35 am
My UT139C has an NCV, my Fluke 87V does not. Guess what I use for NCV testing?
That's right, my Fluke VoltAlert voltstick.
When you've a bundle of 50+ cables in some trunking, getting a full size hand-held meter inside, and onto one specific cable is not a realistic proposition. A voltstick is small enough to do this.
It's about using the right tool for the job, and I'd bet 99% of people who aren't electricians but are using NCV, get a false sense of safety from using one. They have their limitations, and in all honesty even most of the sparkies I know don't use them correctly. I frequently have to remind people to prove them prior to each use.

Of course, horses for courses. Most electricians for example don't even need a multimeter for most things, special purpose tools do the job better and easier. It's called a MULTImeter for a reason, it's not really a master at any one thing.
I have a Fluke Voltstick but mostly use the BM235 because it's always to hand, whereas the Voltstick is so rarely used I can never find it straight away.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on August 16, 2020, 07:19:24 pm
My UT139C has an NCV, my Fluke 87V does not. Guess what I use for NCV testing?

That's right, my Fluke VoltAlert voltstick.

When you've a bundle of 50+ cables in some trunking, getting a full size hand-held meter inside, and onto one specific cable is not a realistic proposition. A voltstick is small enough to do this.
I use the Fluke Voltlight LVD2 (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-lvd2) most of the time for this job just because it also has a powerful flashlight. The meters I have used that feature both NCV and a flashlight are unsafe to use on these scenarios.  :palm:
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 02, 2020, 01:33:22 am
I just noticed that the new meter has much faster updating in DC voltage and current mode in Record mode, and they have confirmed 10 times per second, so twice the usual update rate.
Very interesting.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: MiroS on September 02, 2020, 12:21:32 pm
I use the Fluke Voltlight LVD2 (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-lvd2) most of the time for this job just because it also has a powerful flashlight. The meters I have used that feature both NCV and a flashlight are unsafe to use on these scenarios.  :palm:

I am on the same side. That is really wired when you need to put two cables into socket and keeping screw driver in mouth. That is not safe situation,  wrong body  move and one probe will fall out of  power socket -  ready to give you some shock massage ...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: AVGresponding on September 02, 2020, 03:46:38 pm
I have a Fluke Voltstick but mostly use the BM235 because it's always to hand, whereas the Voltstick is so rarely used I can never find it straight away.

As you say, it's different strokes for different folks. For me it's part of my uniform, the one tool I always have, above even a terminal driver or pliers!

Most of the time a two probe tester and installation tester are all a sparks needs, but VFDs need multimeters, as do fire alarms and emergency lights which usually have voltages and currents too low for electrician specific testers.

/off topic


Disappointing about the BT problems, that's a feature that really piques my interest.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 03, 2020, 06:52:39 am
I just noticed that the new meter has much faster updating in DC voltage and current mode in Record mode, and they have confirmed 10 times per second, so twice the usual update rate.
Very interesting.

I asked if it's possible to get the 10 times/sec updating in normal V/A modes, and they said if you want the fast 10/sec updating just use the Record function.
Only problem is the damn thing beeps all the time.
I presume it's possible to have 10/sec updating and they software slow it down to 5/sec. They have confirmed there is no loss in resolution in the 10/sec mode.
Would people prefer 10/sec or 5/sec in normal mode? (or a power-on option as I suggested to them).
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on September 03, 2020, 12:22:36 pm
I presume it's possible to have 10/sec updating and they software slow it down to 5/sec. They have confirmed there is no loss in resolution in the 10/sec mode.
Would people prefer 10/sec or 5/sec in normal mode? (or a power-on option as I suggested to them).
You already answered the ideal solution (power on option) - to be perfect, it could "stick" as the default, but that may be a tall request.

If left as a single option, I personally would prefer a feeling of a more stable reading - i.e., 5Hz.

The Keysights are faster that the typical meter and sometimes drive me a bit insane with their update rates.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on September 03, 2020, 12:34:30 pm
I agree with rsjsouza, 5 Hz update rate is as fast as you can read comfortably. I never use my benchtop meters on faster than 10 PLC because it makes last few digits just a blur that is just unreadable. You do get information that signal is  noisy though.
So ideally it should be configurable, with 5 Hz being default.

10 Hz sampling is very good for logging though.

One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 03, 2020, 02:21:04 pm
An option to beep on "all measurements" or  "diode and shorts tests"  say  under 20 ohms ???    or something  like a specific command string sent to the meter ???


But you need bluetooth or wifi or at least an optical serial port ??

5 hz is fast enough  for me
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on September 03, 2020, 06:06:50 pm
One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....
Interesting... Does your Brymen beep like the cheap-o-meters that annoy me at every change of scale on the switch? Or is it only during recording/logging?

My BM857 is my quietest meter - pretty useful when I am doing something at the TV room with the missus watching some of their favourite shows. :-+
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on September 03, 2020, 07:42:35 pm
One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....
Interesting... Does your Brymen beep like the cheap-o-meters that annoy me at every change of scale on the switch? Or is it only during recording/logging?

My BM857 is my quietest meter - pretty useful when I am doing something at the TV room with the missus watching some of their favourite shows. :-+

It doesn't beep  when you are rotating main switch, but it beeps on any keypress, and when in crest or min/max mode when it acquires  new extrema..... And it will remember operating modes but not this... grrrr..
You have to start it with Range button pressed and than it is quiet..
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 06:07:29 am
One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....

I checked, and it doesn't save it. Will request that!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 06:14:30 am
One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....

I checked, and it doesn't save it. Will request that!

I also just found that when beep is disabled it actually disables the continuity buzzer! I guess their idea there was that the flashing backlight visual alert was enough?
Have asked them if they can fix that.
I can't imagine that such  "continuity always beeps" isn't more useful than not.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on September 04, 2020, 06:55:13 am
One suggestion: make an option that with key combination you can disable all system sounds except continuity beeper. And make it remember your choice... That is one thing I don't like about Brymens, you can disable it in power up, but you have to do it every.single.time....

I checked, and it doesn't save it. Will request that!

I also just found that when beep is disabled it actually disables the continuity buzzer! I guess their idea there was that the flashing backlight visual alert was enough?
Have asked them if they can fix that.
I can't imagine that such  "continuity always beeps" isn't more useful than not.

Thanks for listening. 

I specifically asked that because i did try some meters that were "all or nothing" i.e. you either can have beep all the time or if you make i silent than it disables even continuity...
Brymen does it properly, but doesn't remember ...

Regards,
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 04, 2020, 07:19:48 am
I specifically asked that because i did try some meters that were "all or nothing" i.e. you either can have beep all the time or if you make i silent than it disables even continuity...
Brymen does it properly, but doesn't remember ...

This one is a Brymen and it disables the continuity.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on September 04, 2020, 10:24:57 am
I specifically asked that because i did try some meters that were "all or nothing" i.e. you either can have beep all the time or if you make i silent than it disables even continuity...
Brymen does it properly, but doesn't remember ...

This one is a Brymen and it disables the continuity.
LOL.
869S doesn't. I will try 525S when I get back to office...

EDIT: I tried and yes, 525S and 869S behave the same in regards to beeps.   If you start them with RANGE button pressed they beep only on continuity. Otherwise they are Mr. Beepalot.....
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on September 04, 2020, 12:02:19 pm
It doesn't beep  when you are rotating main switch, but it beeps on any keypress, and when in crest or min/max mode when it acquires  new extrema..... And it will remember operating modes but not this... grrrr..
You have to start it with Range button pressed and than it is quiet..
I see now. The BM857 is the same but you need to press the ~Hz button at power up.

I specifically asked that because i did try some meters that were "all or nothing" i.e. you either can have beep all the time or if you make i silent than it disables even continuity...
Brymen does it properly, but doesn't remember ...

This one is a Brymen and it disables the continuity.
LOL.
869S doesn't. I will try 525S when I get back to office...
Neither the BM857 - the continuity beep stays on.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2020, 12:29:51 pm
Neither the BM857 - the continuity beep stays on.

I can't think of a single reason why you would want to turn off the continuity buzzer.

"Screen lights up" doesn't cut it because you have to take your eyes off the job and it might be in a very fiddly situation where you need to keep both eyes on the probes.

(or a very dangerous one...)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: voltsandjolts on September 04, 2020, 12:34:19 pm
U1272A disables continuity buzzer :palm:
Still my fav handheld DMM though.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on September 04, 2020, 12:37:38 pm
This one is a Brymen and it disables the continuity.

It's a Brymen, everybody!

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 04, 2020, 02:26:05 pm
At last  loll
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: AVGresponding on September 04, 2020, 02:47:20 pm
Neither the BM857 - the continuity beep stays on.

I can't think of a single reason why you would want to turn off the continuity buzzer.

"Screen lights up" doesn't cut it because you have to take your eyes off the job and it might be in a very fiddly situation where you need to keep both eyes on the probes.

(or a very dangerous one...)

If it's within range of your peripheral vision, that's actually more sensitive to motion (changing light levels) than your central vision.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 04, 2020, 11:25:00 pm
A good feature would be to have a variable audible tone following the measurents values,  that way you hear what you measure, no need to have your eyes on the meter,  that was very practical to follow some glitches, had this  on a Fieldpiece hd7x  meter and an Beckman Industrial / Wavetek hd160,  i miss that feature
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Electro Fan on September 05, 2020, 05:03:45 am
A good feature would be to have a variable audible tone following the measurents values,  that way you hear what you measure, no need to have your eyes on the meter,  that was very practical to follow some glitches, had this  on a Fieldpiece hd7x  meter and an Beckman Industrial / Wavetek hd160,  i miss that feature

clever feature
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 05, 2020, 08:33:04 am
They are seeing if they have the code space left to add the features. They must be close to the edge I guess.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on September 06, 2020, 12:18:26 am
A good feature would be to have a variable audible tone following the measurents values,  that way you hear what you measure, no need to have your eyes on the meter,  that was very practical to follow some glitches, had this  on a Fieldpiece hd7x  meter and an Beckman Industrial / Wavetek hd160,  i miss that feature

clever feature
Keysight's U1273A also has this. I personally don't use it (I like quieteness)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: 2N3055 on September 06, 2020, 10:52:25 am
A good feature would be to have a variable audible tone following the measurents values,  that way you hear what you measure, no need to have your eyes on the meter,  that was very practical to follow some glitches, had this  on a Fieldpiece hd7x  meter and an Beckman Industrial / Wavetek hd160,  i miss that feature

clever feature
Keysight's U1273A also has this. I personally don't use it (I like quieteness)

Same here. I would like if somebody would think of loudness control for meters. Most meters have sound volume set for work on industrial machines....
That is too loud for office/lab work....At least for me... Also tone is usually quite annoying (probably on purpose). A softer, more gentle tone for quiet environments would be nice...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Wytnucls on September 06, 2020, 11:11:06 am
Yes and perhaps something not as startling as a loud beep, when you least expect it, stabbing yourself in recoil, with your sharp probes. A little tune would solve the problem, like the kumbaya song for example.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on September 06, 2020, 03:56:56 pm
A little tune would solve the problem, like the kumbaya song for example.

I think the keysight/agilents do that, too.

Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: rsjsouza on September 06, 2020, 05:47:45 pm
Yes and perhaps something not as startling as a loud beep, when you least expect it, stabbing yourself in recoil, with your sharp probes. A little tune would solve the problem, like the kumbaya song for example.
:-DD :-DD :-DD
To me the absolutely worst offender is the U1282A. It screams for absolutely everything, let it be the over sensitive NCV or the A/mA/uA jack alerts, to the point of me actually avoiding it at work (I work on a cubicle and neighbours are usually quiet). That despite having a very sensible beeping setting that disables the power on beep and its frequency can be set.

I have absolutely no idea why Keysight left such unconfigurable loud beep in an otherwise very capable handheld meter.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 07, 2020, 01:25:28 am
Thats why  all our toughts, brain storming and feedbacks could help dave make a good meter ...  and  this one could evolve in the future with an added wifi or bluetooth connection,  even an optical one would be nice ...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 01:29:00 am
A good feature would be to have a variable audible tone following the measurents values,  that way you hear what you measure, no need to have your eyes on the meter,  that was very practical to follow some glitches, had this  on a Fieldpiece hd7x  meter and an Beckman Industrial / Wavetek hd160,  i miss that feature

clever feature
Keysight's U1273A also has this. I personally don't use it (I like quieteness)

Same here. I would like if somebody would think of loudness control for meters. Most meters have sound volume set for work on industrial machines....
That is too loud for office/lab work....At least for me... Also tone is usually quite annoying (probably on purpose). A softer, more gentle tone for quiet environments would be nice...

Depends on how the hardware is implemented. If it's a buzzer, then no chance of changing it. It needs to be a software controlled piezo element.
This new meter looks like it uses a buzzer.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on September 07, 2020, 02:44:25 am
Neither the BM857 - the continuity beep stays on.

I can't think of a single reason why you would want to turn off the continuity buzzer.

"Screen lights up" doesn't cut it because you have to take your eyes off the job and it might be in a very fiddly situation where you need to keep both eyes on the probes.

(or a very dangerous one...)

Flashing the screen AND beeping would be very valuable.    Also adjustability in volume would make a huge difference.   I find most continuity beepers to be almost useless out in the field in a manufacturing plant.   I'm talking cases where the meter isn't any further away than standard test leads would allow.   So more engaging signaling to the user is something that should be looked into.    Sometimes I think an LED bar graph dedicated to this need would be grand (fast and bright), but that might look like a kludge.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on September 07, 2020, 03:00:44 am
I just noticed that the new meter has much faster updating in DC voltage and current mode in Record mode, and they have confirmed 10 times per second, so twice the usual update rate.
Very interesting.

I asked if it's possible to get the 10 times/sec updating in normal V/A modes, and they said if you want the fast 10/sec updating just use the Record function.
Only problem is the damn thing beeps all the time.
I presume it's possible to have 10/sec updating and they software slow it down to 5/sec. They have confirmed there is no loss in resolution in the 10/sec mode.
Would people prefer 10/sec or 5/sec in normal mode? (or a power-on option as I suggested to them).

Beeping can be irritating at times but I'd rather that it is never shut off entirely.   the meter should beep for example in an error state or when something like the battery is about to fail.   So in some cases beeping should never be overridden however in normal mode the more control you have over sound generation the better.   I realize this is a handheld and there is a limit to what can easily be built into such a device.

As for update rates there are time faster is better and is one reason why an analog meter can still be useful.   Some times you just need a quickly seen indication of the inputs direction / behavior.   Finding ground faults in a machine is one example where quick is good.

Dave
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 03:12:33 am
As for update rates there are time faster is better and is one reason why an analog meter can still be useful.   Some times you just need a quickly seen indication of the inputs direction / behavior.   Finding ground faults in a machine is one example where quick is good.

That's what the 50/sec bargraph update rate is good for.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 07, 2020, 03:13:46 am
Flashing the screen AND beeping would be very valuable.

The meter has a very bright backlight visual flashing. Have not tried it outside, but very bright in the lab.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: Fungus on September 07, 2020, 07:40:59 am
Flashing the screen AND beeping would be very valuable.

The meter has a very bright backlight visual flashing. Have not tried it outside, but very bright in the lab.

I've always wanted a LED on the probe for continuity.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: wizard69 on September 07, 2020, 04:53:16 pm
Flashing the screen AND beeping would be very valuable.

The meter has a very bright backlight visual flashing. Have not tried it outside, but very bright in the lab.

I've always wanted a LED on the probe for continuity.

This is one idea I've never thought about and is intriguing.    I can't imagine dong this with out a multiwire probe lead though.   
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ogdento on September 11, 2020, 04:15:42 am
Damnit I need to pay better attention... I literally just bought a used Brymen 859 (I already have an 857 that's bumped my 87 off the bench)

I surely would have waited for Dave's new offering had I noticed this thread earlier.  Grhhrhgh!!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 11, 2020, 10:22:19 am
 :-DD  im still waiting for it ... but ive bought an very clean Amprobe AM-140 for a ridiculous price,     while waiting  :-DD
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ogdento on September 11, 2020, 04:32:39 pm
ha, coromonadalix i've seen a couple go pretty cheap on fleabay, maybe one was you!  i guess we can always make room for just one more ;)

It seems wizard69 suggested flashing the backlight with continuity - and maybe Dave confirmed it does this?  I'd love that... when I don't want to disturb anybody with constant continuity beeping I use an 8060a that flashes a solid bar on the lcd (with the beep disabled)... but a flashing backlight would be so much easier
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on September 11, 2020, 05:44:36 pm
Well a flashing display would be annoying for me  lolll

The important thing its to have some option(s) and have the possibility to put them off

To have a constant backlighting would be nice ...  and a constant power on with no timer would be nice too, and even adding a battery pack or having an external dc plug option would be terrific  like my gossens 28 29
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: merport on September 11, 2020, 05:47:31 pm
https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-BM235-Brymen-Multimeter/dp/B01JZ1ADCO#descriptionAndDetails (https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-BM235-Brymen-Multimeter/dp/B01JZ1ADCO#descriptionAndDetails)

I saw the listing on amazon. Looking at the description I noted this:

NOTE: No printed user manual is supplied, download the latest manual from www.eevblog.com/bm235 (http://www.eevblog.com/bm235)

That link takes you here:
https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-case/ (https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-case/)

Just to let you know.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ogdento on September 11, 2020, 06:19:05 pm
Just checked out the BM-235 manual... I guess the feature I'm talking about is Brymen's "BeepLit".  It would be nice if you could enable just the beeper, just the flashing, or both.  I also have a Brymen 257 (similar to Dave's 235) but it doesn't have "BeepLit" :(
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2020, 10:17:26 pm
Just checked out the BM-235 manual... I guess the feature I'm talking about is Brymen's "BeepLit".  It would be nice if you could enable just the beeper, just the flashing, or both.  I also have a Brymen 257 (similar to Dave's 235) but it doesn't have "BeepLit" :(

Yes, the 235 is a newer design to the 257 and was the first one AFAIK to have visual continuity. I think all subsequent meter have it, as does this new one.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 11, 2020, 10:18:14 pm
https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-BM235-Brymen-Multimeter/dp/B01JZ1ADCO#descriptionAndDetails (https://www.amazon.com/EEVblog-BM235-Brymen-Multimeter/dp/B01JZ1ADCO#descriptionAndDetails)

I saw the listing on amazon. Looking at the description I noted this:

NOTE: No printed user manual is supplied, download the latest manual from www.eevblog.com/bm235 (http://www.eevblog.com/bm235)

That link takes you here:
https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-case/ (https://www.eevblog.com/product/bm235-case/)

That's, yeah, something happened the website. Need to fix that.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ogdento on September 21, 2020, 09:44:43 pm
Dave, it's been ten long lousy days... toss us a scrap!  maybe another tantalizing photo??  (of the meter, of course)
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 22, 2020, 12:28:06 am
Dave, it's been ten long lousy days... toss us a scrap!  maybe another tantalizing photo??  (of the meter, of course)

No update.
Just got word of a new design differential probe is finished if that gets you excited...
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: ogdento on September 22, 2020, 01:30:20 am
I suppose that will have to do!
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on September 22, 2020, 02:27:59 am
I suppose that will have to do!

Well, it's a potential new probe design to replace my HVP70 probe with the same performance at a cheaper price point.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: EEVblog on October 13, 2020, 02:31:10 am
Got word that I'll be getting a shipment by the end of october. Waiting for word if I can release a photo and details.
Title: Re: US$150 Class Multimeter
Post by: coromonadalix on October 13, 2020, 10:52:32 am
tadah   

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-eevblog-bm786-multimeter/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-eevblog-bm786-multimeter/)

thks Dave