EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: fenugrec on November 11, 2021, 03:44:31 pm
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Hi,
I'm looking for I guess ~mid-range USB spectrum analyzers, and making a spreadsheet with key specs for comparison.
So far I found :
Aaronia Spectran V6 - impressive specs, and price to match (3-4000 $ ?); way overkill for my need
Tek RS306 [EDIT thanks rvalente, I forgot that one] : also nice specs, but still expensive (>3k)
Signal Hound SA44B - more reasonable, 1-1200$
Triarchy TSA4G1 , VSA6G2A : lower end, <1k, not very popular ? Odd website too... but I like that they're designed/built in Canada. Really wonder how well they work.
I'm not considering sub-100$ ali-* specials for various reasons.
Any other models I'm missing ? Bonus points for anything that is usable under linux with minimal headache and performance penalty...
Also interested to hear how these newfangled USB gadgets compare to the kind of SA that can be found used for <1k$ , such as HP 8590/8591, or the odd Advantest/Anritsu from the same early-mid 90's period. (with the understanding that those Japanese models are low priced partly because they're much less documented when it comes to service/repairs).
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I wish siglent made a usb version of the ssa/sva.
Check tek RSA line, you may find a used deal
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Careful about the SA44B, it has one of those "clever" software image suppression algorithms that work very well... some of the time.
Attached:
advantest.jpg: a properly preselected spectrum analyzer shows the true output spectrum of the noise source: log-linear falloff with frequency.
signalhound_sa44b.png: SA44B signal hound spectrum analyzer shows nonsense that looks like a bathtub, not a line, because it uses software image suppression that fails in the presence of broadband signals.
EDIT: oh, you mentioned repairing Advantest analyzers, and I have repaired a few Advantest analyzers. In short: The CRT ones actually do have decent service manuals, even down to the component level. They are not as good as the HP manuals and there are some language barriers. Fun examples: "Merchant Baron? Sounds like something from Dune, not a spectrum analyzer... ohhhhh, an engineer said 'Marchand Balun' and it got clobbered" and "Ok, adjust the offset until the line is zeroed across the band, ok, got it, now... adjust the scale until the sun shines most brigtly upon the monitor? Wat? Ohhh, the amber color of the CRT sort of looks like sunlight and they want you to adjust the noise floor until it fills up the screen, turning it into a big amber blob... the poetic license probably made more sense in Japanese. The newer LCD analyzers from Advantest don't have good service manuals and don't have good physical access. They are much more obnoxious to repair, though with knowledge of SA block diagrams and extender cards it's still possible to repair them.
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By your selection I'd say you need to go to at least 4GHz, right?
Would the USB requirement be to collect and analyze data on a PC and/or need a small/portable instrument like testing stands?
https://www.anritsu.com/en-us/test-measurement/products/ms2760a (https://www.anritsu.com/en-us/test-measurement/products/ms2760a) I've not found any price information, but Anritsu being Anritsu, maybe if you sell your car you can get one (or house :-DD)
Keysight resales certified instruments (top banner here, at least on my screen) maybe you can check their fieldfox line.
What about this "thing"
https://www.tequipment.net/Kaltman/IWxAV/Spectrum-Analyzers/#description (https://www.tequipment.net/Kaltman/IWxAV/Spectrum-Analyzers/#description)
TTI 6GHz, portable, I'm not sure if meets your expectations.
https://www.tequipment.net/TTi/PSA6005/Spectrum-Analyzers/ (https://www.tequipment.net/TTi/PSA6005/Spectrum-Analyzers/)
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Careful about the SA44B, it has one of those "clever" software image suppression algorithms that work very well... some of the time.
Thanks - exactly the kind of non-obvious info I was looking for with this thread. I can compare specs all day on my own but they don't tell the whole story...
Interesting notes about the Advantest. I was also able to find some service manuals (with schems) for some few (old) Anritsu units too, but of course special parts availability would be more of a problem. I'm thinking YTO, other custom stuff in the front-end...
@rvalente :
I'd like at least 2.5GHz ; anything beyond is just extra.
Would the USB requirement be to collect and analyze data on a PC
No - I'd be perfectly happy with a desktop unit. But I was thinking, getting rid of the CRT, keyboard, GPIB etc, and throwing in modern silicon and host-side DSP, surely we can do something similar at a low price. But I don't know if e.g. a classic YTO double/triple conversion desktop unit can radically outperform an average USB SA that probably does DDS and cheats with FFTs for the rest, in certain situations. Like that image suppression thing with the SA44B for example.
Keysight recertified : looked at those; good value for the money but I can't justify spending that much.
That TTI unit (or the Spectran HF-60100), both cool but also out of budget. Interesting to see how much they can cram in a handheld unit.
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Although I do not own, have used, am a fanboy or have any relationship with Siglent products I've seen here good feedbacks from their products.
You could think about SSA3032X Plus, its seems to be a great equipment, 3.2GHz and can be hacked to have a VNA for free.
Maybe with the "black friday" arriving, its a good time to score one.
https://siglentna.com/spectrum-analyzers/ssa3000x-plus/ (https://siglentna.com/spectrum-analyzers/ssa3000x-plus/)
As for mobile or compact units, we know that everything comes with a price and usually portability means less features and/or worst specification.
My experience with benchtop vs handheld units is clear: the majority of times benchtop equipment's are far superior in GUI and quality
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Hi,
I'm looking for I guess ~mid-range USB spectrum analyzers, and making a spreadsheet with key specs for comparison.
So far I found :
Aaronia Spectran V6 - impressive specs, and price to match (3-4000 $ ?); way overkill for my need
Tek RS306 [EDIT thanks rvalente, I forgot that one] : also nice specs, but still expensive (>3k)
Signal Hound SA44B - more reasonable, 1-1200$
Triarchy TSA4G1 , VSA6G2A : lower end, <1k, not very popular ? Odd website too... but I like that they're designed/built in Canada. Really wonder how well they work.
I'm not considering sub-100$ ali-* specials for various reasons.
Any other models I'm missing ? Bonus points for anything that is usable under linux with minimal headache and performance penalty...
The Signal Hound BB60C is likely to be a good fit. It's similar to the RSA306 but newer/better in many respects, and Signal Hound's software is easier to live with.
Performance of either a BB60C or RSA306 will be light years ahead of the old 8590 boat anchors. However, as others have said, I wouldn't bother with an SA-series USB analyzer. They are barely useful by comparison. Spend 3x more, you'll get an instrument that's 10x better.
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Signal Hound BB60C has very good software. It has many analysis options and tools that are optional extras with other manufacturers.
Also it is RT SA, so very high POI. Really fast.
You can also realtime save captures and analyse later..
But you didn't specify intended use..
I have BB60C because it was cheapest decent RT SA at the time (few years ago).
I do mostly EMC, looking at modulations, also you can cross trigger from a scope to look at the bursts.
I don't need to measure phase noise or such, I don't do that kind of work. For that it is not best choice.
But I find it to be very good general tool, for general troubleshooting, swiss knife style.
Also I have a PC on my desk in a lab and large monitor is great stuff. I also use few Picoscopes, so once you have infrastructure to run one USB instrument you can have several... Also VNWA and Digital Discovery.... As you can imagine, I'm not afraid of USB instruments. They work well for me, once you get used to it being different..
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I daily drive a SignalHound SM200B and I'll second that the SignalHound software is good. I have every reason to believe that the BB60C is good too, you just have to stay away from the SA44B. The SignalHound software isn't perfect -- the triggers are a bit lacking and the modes / decodes aren't quite at the level of Keysight or R&S -- but it's pretty darn good for no additional charge. Besides, I find that most serious development ends in matlab regardless (jupyterlab, these days).
Let's see, as for boat anchors, I can't speak to HP 8590s, but I can speak to HP 8560s and Advantest R3271As. The biggest drawbacks are the obvious ones: they're big, the CRT displays show their age, you need to talk to them over GPIB or RS232 if you want to get data out, etc. They do have strengths, though. The "take a picture of the screen with a tablet and annotate" workflow is surprisingly OK, and if you're young enough or old enough I suppose the CRTs can be quirky or charming. The feature I have found myself actually missing during actual work is IF Out -- just toss it into a scope for time correlation, triggering, and if you're doing analysis in matlab anyway you can even demodulate it. IIRC IF Out is an option on the 8560s and standard on the Advantest. In theory, LO Out / IF In for harmonic mixer support could also be a selling point, but I haven't needed it and it sounds like you don't either. Other things: The HP has a smoother frequency response, but the sweeps are jerky because it stops to calibrate itself all the time. The Advantest has "silky smooth 12fps sweeps" if you stay within a band because it doesn't always stop to recalibrate its IF. Both have phase noise around -110dBc/Hz at 10kHz, which is considerably better than many of the entry-level digital SAs. The boat anchors lack built-in preamps, but surprisingly the Advantest has EMC filters as a standard option. Oh, and the GHz/$ of a boat anchor can't be beat!
I think that's about it. If you want to get a feel for the sweep speed, here's a video from when I was selling my CRT Advantest (apologies for potato quality, it was 2017 and I didn't know how to camera): https://youtu.be/cnyPSgAhBYw
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HP 8561E (6.5 GHz) seems to be asking about $1500. Big, heavy, and old but if you find one working in spec they are worth considering. Maybe check with a local cal lab (if you have one nearby) that would guarantee it to be in spec. Alternative is to sacrifice some bandwidth and some other performance specs and get a new modern SA with a prettier UI and with some extra functionality for about the same price.
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Its amazing how a vintage device like 8561E can be up to spec nowadays. Guys from HP were really ahead of their time
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Performance of either a BB60C or RSA306 will be light years ahead of the old 8590 boat anchors
Can you elaborate on this ? I can see they have tons more features, wide realtime bandwidth, demodulation / fancy IQ stuff etc. But for the features they have in common, are they that much better ? Thinking RBW, dynamic range, phase noise, etc.
In any case, it seems that the only worthwhile USB / 10Gbe models are way up in the >3k range.
I actually have an hp 4195A network/spectrum analyzer that covers my needs up to 500MHz; I'll probably go with a "cheap" boatanchor for a while just to be not completely blind beyond 500MHz. USB SAs can only get better and hopefully cheaper (semiconductor supply chain permitting...), there's no rush for me.
Thanks again for the comments, very interesting to read.
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Performance of either a BB60C or RSA306 will be light years ahead of the old 8590 boat anchors
Can you elaborate on this ? I can see they have tons more features, wide realtime bandwidth, demodulation / fancy IQ stuff etc. But for the features they have in common, are they that much better ? Thinking RBW, dynamic range, phase noise, etc.
The 8590 series, while popular, was just a repackaging of older manually-controlled RF hardware in a portable form factor. They were built to fulfill some specific marketing needs in the CATV and telecom sectors at an unusually low (for HP) price point. They served that purpose well, and zillions of them were sold, but at this point almost any other HP model is a better choice for R&D work. The 8560E through 8565E models are still great instruments, for instance, with 1 Hz RBW and the quietest LOs in their class.
USB spectrum analyzers are more like software-defined radio platforms than traditional test instruments. All of their signal processing is done digitally on your PC, allowing more RBW options than the 1980s-1990s models could provide. The cheaper ones don't have very good LO noise performance but unless you are going to use them to measure phase noise you probably don't care that much. Software support is where they really stand out, since the architecture makes it easy to implement a lot of cool features like spectrograms and demodulation options that weren't feasible with the older models.
One good compromise might be to get a cheaper portable model from the HP 8590 series and a low-cost SDR module like an ADALM-Pluto that will allow you to get a feel for both architectures. Then, if you decide you're more interested in SDR applications, you can expand in that direction, while if you find the 859x's limitations to be a problem, you can sell it and upgrade at that point. The big problem I have with the 8590s is that they are inexplicably pricy on the used market compared to better hardware.
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The 8560E through 8565E
Ah yes, I keep overlooking those, thinking they're the same as the huge 8568.
I may indeed do something like you suggest, getting both a classic desktop model and a one of the cheaper SDRs to see what is most useful to me.
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What would be your specif use and budget?
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In any case, it seems that the only worthwhile USB / 10Gbe models are way up in the >3k range.
That really depends on what your needs are.
I have the Signalhound USB-SA44B (I think their cheapest model), and the companion tracking generator, and I like it a lot. But I generally use it for measuring passive filters, antennas, and basic power, spur, harmonics measurements, and modulation analysis. It does have some artifacts, and other deficiencies which have been pointed out here, but I still find it quite usable for what I'm doing with it.
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What would be your specif use and budget?
Use case is mostly troubleshooting other gear ! I actually don't do all that much RF. I did want to look at the output of some radio modems the other day (on 915MHz ISM band and the other in 450-470MHz block) but that was mostly curiosity and definitely closer to SDR territory...
Budget is whatever an "ok" boatanchor costs - I can find 8590's and Anritsu/Advantest gear regularly for under 1k shipped; requiring some repairs is acceptable to me.
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How would be advantest and anritsu support to service manuals? Im afraid next to nothing, right? This is something to consider
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Here is an OCR'd copy of the Advantest R3265A (8GHz) / R3271A (26.5GHz) / R3371A (26.5GHz + TG) service manual: https://www.dropbox.com/s/qz9zdlwvjnopk3w/R3265A_SM_Vol123.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/qz9zdlwvjnopk3w/R3265A_SM_Vol123.pdf?dl=0)
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Would anyone suggest a review/comparison between signalhound procuts and standard benchtop SA?
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I would have no way of knowing what your requirements are but suggest you try the search features. Here's some of my posts on the Signal Hound BB60C.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/signal-hound-bb60c/msg994679/#msg994679 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/signal-hound-bb60c/msg994679/#msg994679)
Video of me trying out the API for the first time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1UtLpSZ2W0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1UtLpSZ2W0)
I eventually cleaned up that software.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkec-Eyhg7c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mkec-Eyhg7c)
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Tks! I really like your videos and the in-depth approach.
I've been a subscriber to your channel for sometime
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After owning the BB60C for 5 years, the only problems I have with it are USB related. One of the common problems is where the PC will continuously reset the VNA when I try to power it up after the PC has booted. The only way I have found to get it to come up was to reboot the PC. Once it connects, it's very reliable.
There have been times I wish it had a wider real-time BW. To get beyond the 6GHz limitation, I will down convert the signal. No big deal but their software doesn't support it. Something as simple as a subtraction, they refuse to add.
Overall, it's been a good product and I've used it a lot.
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After owning the BB60C for 5 years, the only problems I have with it are USB related. One of the common problems is where the PC will continuously reset the VNA when I try to power it up after the PC has booted. The only way I have found to get it to come up was to reboot the PC. Once it connects, it's very reliable.
I have had a similar issue with a spectrometer. The problem in that case was caused by the spectrometer drawing borderline too much current from the USB port causing the port to trip and retry. I switched to a cable were I could feed in an external 5V supply and never had the issue again.
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After owning the BB60C for 5 years, the only problems I have with it are USB related. One of the common problems is where the PC will continuously reset the VNA when I try to power it up after the PC has booted. The only way I have found to get it to come up was to reboot the PC. Once it connects, it's very reliable.
There have been times I wish it had a wider real-time BW. To get beyond the 6GHz limitation, I will down convert the signal. No big deal but their software doesn't support it. Something as simple as a subtraction, they refuse to add.
Overall, it's been a good product and I've used it a lot.
There is a not well known option for BB60C that you can order it (even send it in for "upgrade") with a separate power connector. In which case it cannot be powered by USB anymore, but you can feed it stable, clean power from dedicated power source.
It is not something they advertise in datasheet, but was mentioned on SigHound Forum.
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The BB60C is provided with a Y cable. The USB3 is for the data and USB2 for power only. Against their advice, I use a powered hub which has dedicated charge ports which I used with some decent cables. I mainly do this because the location of the PC to the bench. Most of the time, it will connect just fine even after the PC has booted. As long as I don't do anything to create a lot of noise in the lab, the mice and BB60C are rock solid once they connect. For the most part and only gives me trouble when I am in a hurry to get something done. I had upgraded Spike in 2020 and the connection problem seemed to have worsened but it's so random, I'm not sure.
When I bought a band new PC just for the BB60C (which is now fairly old), it still would not work. I was doubting it would ever be usable. Dell's USB ports were the problem, so I bought a couple of different USB PCIe cards to try. Both of these proved to be reliable with the BB60C.
I use it with the external GPS which has caused no problems.
Looking on their site:
BB60C Version 8 (6/7/2018)
* Resolves power cycling issues on certain computers.
* Power cycles in all cases where the device is not connected as USB 3.0.
Version 7 is installed... Time for an upgrade....
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Looks like you can't simply download it. I have written them to see if they feel it would address the problem and if they will supply a copy. I'll post an update.
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Sounds like it may be the cause. They have sent the new FW and I have upgraded it along with SPIKE to the latest. I attempted 4 power cycles after the PC was booted and it seems fine so far. The problem with it being so random, it will take some time for me to say for sure that it's been corrected.
That's one thing I will say about Signal Hound, they have always been responsive to any questions I've had.
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That's one thing I will say about Signal Hound, they have always been responsive to any questions I've had.
That was indeed quick. Big plus in my book! :-+
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The BB60C is provided with a Y cable. The USB3 is for the data and USB2 for power only. Against their advice, I use a powered hub which has dedicated charge ports which I used with some decent cables. I mainly do this because the location of the PC to the bench. Most of the time, it will connect just fine even after the PC has booted. As long as I don't do anything to create a lot of noise in the lab, the mice and BB60C are rock solid once they connect. For the most part and only gives me trouble when I am in a hurry to get something done. I had upgraded Spike in 2020 and the connection problem seemed to have worsened but it's so random, I'm not sure.
When I bought a band new PC just for the BB60C (which is now fairly old), it still would not work. I was doubting it would ever be usable. Dell's USB ports were the problem, so I bought a couple of different USB PCIe cards to try. Both of these proved to be reliable with the BB60C.
I use it with the external GPS which has caused no problems.
Looking on their site:
BB60C Version 8 (6/7/2018)
* Resolves power cycling issues on certain computers.
* Power cycles in all cases where the device is not connected as USB 3.0.
Version 7 is installed... Time for an upgrade....
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Joe,
What I was referring to is something called Option 10 and it is a return to factory installation or you have to order it like that from factory.
Discussed here:
https://signalhound.com/support/forums/topic/external-power-cable-for-bb60c/
That is separate issue from fact that USB3 data is sometimes disconnects with heavy traffic which firmware updates solve.
Unfortunately, unlike you that had V7 of the firmware, I have V6, and for it also says that firmware update is RMA.
Only thing is that it requires involving customs (export for repair) and not very cheap postage and insurance..
Kinda costly and expensive for just firmware update.
So I'm toying with thought to maybe send it in for Power cable conversion and firmware update and maybe calibration....
Option 10 would give me opportunity to power it with something clean, and also allow battery power separate from PC/laptop.
Still, you reminded me of this so I'll contact Support and see what they say..
Best,
SiniĊĦa
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Thanks for the link. This is the first I have heard of it and surprised they never mentioned it in the times I have asked them about USB problems. I am using the type A connector on the hub. If I see the problem again, I will ask them about option 10.
When I upgraded mine from 6, I thought the firmware was on-line. I wonder with the warnings, maybe they saw lot of returns. After all, you have an unstable connection that you are trying to fix by upgrading the firmware, which requires a stable connection... :-DD
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Maybe/probably a different situation but I have found that some USB devices powered from the USB ports built into the front of a computer case will randomly disconnect but if the same devices are plugged into a molex powered PCIe USB card in an expansion slot at the back of the case they generally run reliably.
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Maybe/probably a different situation but I have found that some USB devices powered from the USB ports built into the front of a computer case will randomly disconnect but if the same devices are plugged into a molex powered PCIe USB card in an expansion slot at the back of the case they generally run reliably.
That is only logical :-)...
That guaranties least voltage drop.
I actually run that config too, and my USB expansion card has power connector on (same as SATA disk). But I found that it is most reliable if I power it by connecting one connector from the Y to that expansion card (one with power and data) and other (just power) from a built in USB on the back.
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Next time don't cheap out on your motherboard :P
But yeah, if it has already been done, putting those PCIe slots to work is the ticket :-+
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Dell's USB ports were the problem, so I bought a couple of different USB PCIe cards to try. Both of these proved to be reliable with the BB60C.
Dell USB ports are always a problem. I have had exposure to this back to the Optiplex GX-270s we supplied to our customer in 2004. At contract renewal, we went to HP which eliminated the problem. Then the customer decided to supply their own computers--Dell. Now we are back to USB issues. Especially, the front USB ports on the Optiplex 7030 and 7050 computers they deployed. Any initial deployment issues with our USB equipment is always traced back to the installers putting our equipment in the front USB ports even when they are not supposed to. I recently bought a certified refurbed Dell computer for Mrs. GreyWoolfe because I can't be bothered to build them anymore and the wireless keyboard and mouse dongles are plugged into the back ports. I don't want to cheese her off with flaky connections.
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Is there any SA + VNA combo with specs similar to a Siglent SVA1032X that is cheaper than the SVA itself?
My main use would be for EMI/EMC, some EMI/MC HW and set up some HAM antennas, testing some cables and etc... so up to 3GHZ is way more than enough, actually, 2GHz is good enough
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Dell USB ports are always a problem. I have had exposure to this back to the Optiplex GX-270s we supplied to our customer in 2004. At contract renewal, we went to HP which eliminated the problem. Then the customer decided to supply their own computers--Dell. Now we are back to USB issues. Especially, the front USB ports on the Optiplex 7030 and 7050 computers they deployed. Any initial deployment issues with our USB equipment is always traced back to the installers putting our equipment in the front USB ports even when they are not supposed to. I recently bought a certified refurbed Dell computer for Mrs. GreyWoolfe because I can't be bothered to build them anymore and the wireless keyboard and mouse dongles are plugged into the back ports. I don't want to cheese her off with flaky connections.
This is an old Dell 5810. I've not really had really any problems outside of the BB60C. So far, no problems after updating the firmware but it's early.
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Is there any SA + VNA combo with specs similar to a Siglent SVA1032X that is cheaper than the SVA itself?
My main use would be for EMI/EMC, some EMI/MC HW and set up some HAM antennas, testing some cables and etc... so up to 3GHZ is way more than enough, actually, 2GHz is good enough
Maybe start with an SSA3021X Plus then follow these instructions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg3180754/#msg3180754 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg3180754/#msg3180754)
(I don't own one, so I have no personal experience with this process... yet)
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Dell USB ports are always a problem. I have had exposure to this back to the Optiplex GX-270s we supplied to our customer in 2004. At contract renewal, we went to HP which eliminated the problem. Then the customer decided to supply their own computers--Dell. Now we are back to USB issues. Especially, the front USB ports on the Optiplex 7030 and 7050 computers they deployed. Any initial deployment issues with our USB equipment is always traced back to the installers putting our equipment in the front USB ports even when they are not supposed to. I recently bought a certified refurbed Dell computer for Mrs. GreyWoolfe because I can't be bothered to build them anymore and the wireless keyboard and mouse dongles are plugged into the back ports. I don't want to cheese her off with flaky connections.
This is an old Dell 5810. I've not really had really any problems outside of the BB60C. So far, no problems after updating the firmware but it's early.
It's been over a month since I installed that patch. I've not had a single connection problem after installing it. Problem solved.