Author Topic: Need suggestion to select an (1GHz) Oscilloscope (Tek 5 series Vs R&S RTO2000)  (Read 606 times)

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Offline udhay_cit

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Hi,
For my company I need to select an oscilloscope with 1GHz BW, 4Ch analog. We have received an excellent offer from both Tektronix and R&S. Both are good and both has its own advantages and disadvantage which leads me confusion. Please give us your valuable opinions to select any one from these two.

Tektronix MSO54 5-BW-1000

Advantages:
1. Biggest and full HD screen with easy to use UI (my opinion)
2. Real 12bit ADC and individual ADC per channel.
3. 4 Channel 1GHz passive probe with very low capacitive load.
4. Standard embedded OS and optional windows 10.
5. Flexible analog or digital channels (not interested in digital channels now, but just mentioning here)

Disadvantages:
1. 6.25 GS/s for each channel which is good, but lower compared to 10 Gs/s of RTO2000
2. Rise time is only 400pS for 1GHz scope. So the real BW=0.35/400pS = 875MHz
3. 500,000 wfm/s is low compared to 1M wfm/s of RTO
4. Price $15,300 compared to R&S $3,400 cost more

Rohde & Schwarz RTO-2000

Advantages:
1. 10 GS/s independent of number of channels.
2. Rise time 350pS which is the real bandwidth is 0.35/350pS=1Ghz
3. Can be upgraded upto 4GHz (not interested at least now)
4. Ultra fast update rate 1M wfm/s.
5. Windows 7 comes default (don't know advantage or disadvantage. is there any possibility of windows corrupt?)
6. Lower price EUR. 10,700 ($3,400 lesser compared to Tek)
7. Supplier offering two 8GHz passive probe RT-ZZ80 but the impedance of the probe is only 500Ω.

Disadvantages:
1. 12.1" 1280x800 display (compared to Tek its low)
2. Default 500MHz probe.
3. 8bit ADC (16bit at high resolution)


Each one has its own advantages and disadvantages. I don't consider the price as a point (because I'm not going to pay). Both are giving really good hardware and good support. I like both and I'm really in confusion. So please give me your feedback on these points.

Thanks in advance
Udhay
 

Offline nctnico

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Don't get hung up on the risetime! The factor .35 is just a rule of thumb. By why aren't you considering the R&S RTM3004? That has 10bit ADCs and 1GHz bandwidth.

I also wouldn't put too much value in probes which come with an oscilloscope. If you have special requirements you'll probably have to buy probes seperately anywhere.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Not sure about the 'real 12 bit' when we had the 6 series on test it readily displayed 8 bits when looking at low speed digital signals, not that nice to use either. Also consider a LeCroy HDO6000 (real 12 bit) and Keysight 4000X series.

R&S not a fan of the scopes but the RF stuff is just spot on
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Offline udhay_cit

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Hi nctnico,
I like the RTM-3000 also, but the update rate is too slow. Waveform update rate is not much important, I can able to detect the random signal with "runt trigger". But it is very low.
To be frank if I select an oscilloscope for my personal usage, I will happily get the RTM3004. It is 100% worth the money. But my organization willing to pay, so I'm looking for higher spec oscilloscope.

I hope the 0.35 is a 3db gain level. So do you have any suggestion for me between MSO54 & RTO2000
 

Offline nctnico

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Unfortunately I have no experience with the scopes you selected. The best advice I can give is to get both on loan for 2 weeks or so and do some serious testing to see which one works best.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline udhay_cit

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Sighound36,
I am also not sure about the "real 12 bit ADC", but from datasheet, EEVBLOG and signal path review I conclude that this is real hardware 12 bit ADC.

We are buying some other equipment's from Tek & R&S, so they are offering a good price reduction. So I can't go back from this two brands. The sales and support also very good for this two brands in our location.

Keysight is still having a problem of very low memory.

R&S not familiar with oscilloscope for all but I really like the RTO-2000 spec, but the problem is I like the Tek also.

Are you familiar with Tek 6 series. Are you facing any issue which you hate?
 

Offline udhay_cit

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Unfortunately I have no experience with the scopes you selected. The best advice I can give is to get both on loan for 2 weeks or so and do some serious testing to see which one works best.

Yes, I'm also trying the same. It may take some time to receive the demo unit to me. Before that I'm trying to get better paper spec comparison between this two.

What would you select between better sample rate vs better probe? Hope remaining others all fancy items. 
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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For my company I need to select an oscilloscope with 1GHz BW, 4Ch analog. We have received an excellent offer from both Tektronix and R&S. Both are good and both has its own advantages and disadvantage which leads me confusion. Please give us your valuable opinions to select any one from these two.

Well, what are you going to do with it? You merely list features of which some have little relevance in a practical sense so it's not a lot to go on.

Quote
Tektronix MSO54 5-BW-1000

Advantages:
1. Biggest and full HD screen with easy to use UI (my opinion)

Good if you like it. Our engineers didn't because it's not following common logic (i.e. disabling a channel by dragging it into the recycle bin).

Quote
4. Standard embedded OS and optional windows 10.

Doesn't make much difference in reality.

Quote
5. Flexible analog or digital channels (not interested in digital channels now, but just mentioning here)

The thing with FlexChannels is that if you need digital you lose analog, something which other MSOs don't suffer from.

Quote
Disadvantages:
1. 6.25 GS/s for each channel which is good, but lower compared to 10 Gs/s of RTO2000

Doesn't matter. 6.25GHz is more than sufficient for a 1GHz scope.

Quote
2. Rise time is only 400pS for 1GHz scope. So the real BW=0.35/400pS = 875MHz

As other said, don't get hung up on risetime figures (besides, the factor of 0.35 is only adequate for low BW scopes).

Quote
3. 500,000 wfm/s is low compared to 1M wfm/s of RTO

Doesn't matter, you won't see a difference. Your scope is still blind >90% of the time. Which is why having a proper trigger suite matters a lot more than high waveform rate figures.

Quote
4. Price $15,300 compared to R&S $3,400 cost more

Yeah, that's what you pay for the name. Tek believes the fact that they were the number one scope maker when analoog scopes were a thing some 30 years ago is still worth something when they have been making some of the worst digital scopes in history. And the MSO5 isn't a lot better, we one in for assessment a couple of times and still found embarrassing bugs that should not exist in a product at this price.

There's a reason Tektronix has seen dwindling sales for about two decades while scopes sales mostly went to Keysight and LeCroy.

Quote
Rohde & Schwarz RTO-2000

Advantages:
1. 10 GS/s independent of number of channels.
2. Rise time 350pS which is the real bandwidth is 0.35/350pS=1Ghz[
...
4. Ultra fast update rate 1M wfm/s.

None of it matters in reality.

Quote
5. Windows 7 comes default (don't know advantage or disadvantage. is there any possibility of windows corrupt?)

No, if you don't treat the scope like a PC and install crappy software on it.

Quote
6. Lower price EUR. 10,700 ($3,400 lesser compared to Tek)

And in addition, R&S actually provides real support where Tek often stalls and is unwilling to fix (or even acknowledge) issues with its products. That's at least the case in Europe and the U.S. (who knows, maybe Tek India is different).

Quote
Disadvantages:
1. 12.1" 1280x800 display (compared to Tek its low)

Yes, but since scopes are not flatscreen TVs the resolution doesn't matter if the UI is designed to provide sufficient information.

Quote
2. Default 500MHz probe.

Yes, This is pretty much standard for most 1GHz scope. They all come with passive probes which are pretty poor for signals over say 300MHz in general anyways.

Quote
3. 8bit ADC (16bit at high resolution)

Yes, but since you didn't tell us what you're going to use the scope for it's hard to say if that even matters.

Also, R&S has the RTA4004 which is a 10bit scope and which is offered in a 1GHz version.

Then there is Keysight (DSO-X4kA/6kA, Infiniium-S) and LeCroy (WaveSurfer 4000HD, HDO Series) which are the top two manufacturers when it comes to scopes. Leaving them out of consideration means you might be missing out on what at the end of the day may be better tools.

Quote
Each one has its own advantages and disadvantages. I don't consider the price as a point (because I'm not going to pay). Both are giving really good hardware and good support. I like both and I'm really in confusion. So please give me your feedback on these points.

Yes, if you follow datasheets and brochures. Then there is reality.

Also, it's not a good idea to buy a >$10k scope without getting a loaner and testing it for a week.

But at the beginning should always be the use case, i.e. what the scope will be used for.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 02:28:22 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 
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Offline srce

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I had a demo of a MSO54 and while a great deal look nice - it was very buggy. That was quite a while ago - so maybe better now. Try before you buy  :-+
 
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Offline Nanoman

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It's always best to get scopes in to test before purchase, all scopes have their quirks and some run a lot hotter and noisier than you'd want. The suppliers will fight for the business and I've always found keysight to be the most willing to throw in features or additional probes. I bought an ex-demo R&S because it provided the best bandwidth for the price.

The RT-ZZ80 probe is 0.3pf compared to 3.9pf for the TPP1000. At 1GHz the ZZ80 provides a much higher impedance than the Tek probe, passive probes like this will give far better results* in a lot of scenarios. Tek sell similar passive probes.

If pulse response is important note that some will have maximally flat (butterworth) responses which give more ringing on fast edges. The infiniium S series for example lets you choose filter type eg 1GHz butterworth or 700MHz Bessel.


*3.9pf is a nasty load for any high speed amplifier, it's not great for probing 50ohm terminations either
 
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Offline udhay_cit

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Well, what are you going to do with it? You merely list features of which some have little relevance in a practical sense so it's not a lot to go on.
Sorry. Its my fault. I have to start with my specification. We are making transformer monitoring systems for substation and power generation systems where we have lot of EMI problems. This 1GHz scope we mainly looking for EMI troubleshooting. I know that DSO itself is not sufficient enough for EMI troubleshooting, but we need higher bandwidth scope for calibrate our EFT and surge generator

We have EMV-Langer surge injection probe (low voltage, high rise time), so that we can monitor the EFT & surge effect of PCB while in operation.

We yet to start the high speed microprocessor design in future. This scope may be helpful in future fro this.



Quote
Good if you like it. Our engineers didn't because it's not following common logic (i.e. disabling a channel by dragging it into the recycle bin).
You have a dedicated button also for doing the same, but I agree, that one is a useless feature



Quote
Yeah, that's what you pay for the name. Tek believes the fact that they were the number one scope maker when analoog scopes were a thing some 30 years ago is still worth something when they have been making some of the worst digital scopes in history. And the MSO5 isn't a lot better, we one in for assessment a couple of times and still found embarrassing bugs that should not exist in a product at this price.

There's a reason Tektronix has seen dwindling sales for about two decades while scopes sales mostly went to Keysight and LeCroy.
Oh no :-[. I don't know much about tektronix scopes. I'm using agilent 3000, 100MHz. Really they have lot of bugs & failures? Is it the reason lot of encore products are available in Tek website.





Quote

No, if you don't treat the scope like a PC and install crappy software on it.

Yes. I can understand, we have to treat like a scope not like a laptop PC.


Quote

And in addition, R&S actually provides real support where Tek often stalls and is unwilling to fix (or even acknowledge) issues with its products. That's at least the case in Europe and the U.S. (who knows, maybe Tek India is different).

Really thank you for this valuable point. Before comparing the spec, we need consider this point. I say that they are giving really a good support before buying the instrument. I really don't know about after sales or service support.



Quote

Yes, This is pretty much standard for most 1GHz scope. They all come with passive probes which are pretty poor for signals over say 300MHz in general anyways.

I really get stuck up. This is why I thinking of about Tek.

Quote

Yes, but since you didn't tell us what you're going to use the scope for it's hard to say if that even matters.

I'm more concern about x axis. Sorry I don't know really, but it may be useful for any of my future application.

Quote
Also, R&S has the RTA4004 which is a 10bit scope and which is offered in a 1GHz version.

Then there is Keysight (DSO-X4kA/6kA, Infiniium-S) and LeCroy (WaveSurfer 4000HD, HDO Series) which are the top two manufacturers when it comes to scopes. Leaving them out of consideration means you might be missing out on what at the end of the day may be better tools.
Thanks for pointing this. I will look for this two product also.

 

Offline jjoonathan

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I have an RTO1024. It is very similar to the RTO2000 from a software and hardware perspective, just 10 years older. I'd expect my RTO1000 experence to translate well to what you can expect. I love my RTO1024. Especially the FFTs:




Generally the build quality is high, the features work, and the software is both responsive and reliable. Windows behaves itself. The software is very tolerant even if Windows isn't exactly the way the RTO software expects: I am using my own Windows 7 install because the instrument came with XP, and I am also running dropbox to save/share screenshots with the push of a button, but it hasn't caused stuttering.

The software triggers are great and consistently well-engineered. For example, if you are triggering with two levels, both are bound to the trigger knob and can be toggled with a press, both are labeled, both have visible hysteresis zones, the hysteresis zones are above/below/centered appropriately, etc. That level of craftsmanship is consistent across everything.

"HD mode" is also well implemented. R&S's "16 bit" claim is marketing wank, but so is advertising a raw bit advantage when the ENOB advantage is considerably less, and it always is. If you absolutely need the highest resolution, R&S isn't it anymore, but HD mode will comfortably get you to ENOB of 10 bits, it works well with zooms/triggers/FFTs, and that's been good enough for my purposes. Back when I had an 8 bit Rigol, I used to regularly borrow my buddy's 12 bit Lecroy, but with the 8 bit R&S I haven't felt the need to. That's not a function of pride -- I just don't notice a qualitative difference once I've turned on HD mode and limited the bandwidth to a similar level.

The touch screen on the RTO1000 (10 years old) is resistive, but even so it is very well implemented. For some of my coworkers, it was the first touch screen they ever had a positive experience with. I had an iPhone at that point, so I already knew what good touch screens were like, but they were new to oscilloscopes at that time. The RTO2000 is capacitive, so you have multi-finger gestures like pinch-to-zoom.

If I knew where to buy a RTO2000 for $10k I would do it in an instant. Unfortunately they start at $18k over here. Maybe I need to haggle harder. Or maybe I need to visit India one of these days :)

EDIT: Oh, and I'm a big fan of 500Ω low impedance probes, though I usually make my own and have not bought from R&S. The dirty secret of active probes is that at high frequencies, they have low impedance too. They have high impedance at DC, they are characterized at high frequency, and they sometimes have perks like tri-mode (Tri-mode probes are one area where Tektronix still has a genuine advantage), but you pay an awful lot for those advantages. At work, I am happy to spend someone else's money on active probes. At home, 500Ω probes are fine :)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 03:40:25 pm by jjoonathan »
 
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Offline Sighound36

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Sighound36,
I am also not sure about the "real 12 bit ADC", but from datasheet, EEVBLOG and signal path review I conclude that this is real hardware 12 bit ADC.

We are buying some other equipment's from Tek & R&S, so they are offering a good price reduction. So I can't go back from this two brands. The sales and support also very good for this two brands in our location.

Keysight is still having a problem of very low memory.

R&S not familiar with oscilloscope for all but I really like the RTO-2000 spec, but the problem is I like the Tek also.

Are you familiar with Tek 6 series. Are you facing any issue which you hate?


I understand your position regarding the manufacturers you have cited, however R&S have a factory bargain site and you may find a scope on there that may suit you better.

The Tek 5 was very buggy, bad GUI why should you have to enter an app just to use the histogram? again having to swipe the channel into the bin on the far right hand channel, boot up time was a joke over 5 minutes and 30 seconds (linux version no windows). The cost of the apps was prohibitive, deal wise 30% is the norm on new scopes within these ranges, UK price is £17400 so £12200 +vat zero apps and basic probes.

The 6 series was equally as average, except I managed to slow down the scope quite regularly and it crashed 8 times plus the coffee consumed while waiting for it to reboot  |O £21800 basic 1 Ghz price £28,600 for 2.5ghz with the three basic apps and 3 respectable probes £46000+vat less 30% on the scope only

With the R&S I just do not like the GUI at all, other will that is personal, but for me the 16Bit HD is still only 8 bits hardware the other 8 are software obtained. look at the noise figures for the RTE1000 as well . Those scopes start at £12,500 for the basic model here in the UK

Other manufacturers will also entertain package deals you just have to ask.

However the advice that has been given regarding actually picking one, have each of the units on long term loan to really see if it fits your requirements.

Which one did we choose the Wavepro 254, second the Keysight MSO S 254 I would suggest checking out both of these brands as they really do deliver, the Tek was a big disappointment for us which was surprising as we were pretty much set on one!

This makes for an interesting read.

https://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/comparing-high-resolution-oscilloscope-design-approaches-wp.pdf

Attached is an image of the Tek clearly showing 8 bits resolution while viewing a basic 176.4Khz square wave form. Not quite sure why a real 12 bit adc would down-sample to 8 bits? Also the noise floor at higher voltages wasn't that good (20 and 50mv) compared to the R&S  imho
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 03:44:12 pm by Sighound36 »
Seeking quality measurement equipment at realistic cost with proper service backup. If you pay peanuts you employ monkeys.
 
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Sorry. Its my fault. I have to start with my specification. We are making transformer monitoring systems for substation and power generation systems where we have lot of EMI problems. This 1GHz scope we mainly looking for EMI troubleshooting. I know that DSO itself is not sufficient enough for EMI troubleshooting, but we need higher bandwidth scope for calibrate our EFT and surge generator

I see. A scope is really not the best tool for this, but the price difference between the Tek and the R&S alone would be enough to buy a entry-level spectrum analyzer (there are lots of cheap options in the up to 1.5GHz range, like the Rigol DSA, Siglent SSA, and even R&S has something in this class) which will perform a lot better than any scope for this task.

But if that's not possible for some reason and you have to use FFT then even there the R&S RTO will be the better scope.

Quote
We yet to start the high speed microprocessor design in future. This scope may be helpful in future fro this.

Sure, but this would be another argument to be a bit more careful and not selecting a scope just based on brochures.

Quote
Quote
Good if you like it. Our engineers didn't because it's not following common logic (i.e. disabling a channel by dragging it into the recycle bin).
You have a dedicated button also for doing the same, but I agree, that one is a useless feature

If this would have been the only problem then we wouldn't care, but the problem with the MSO5 and Tek scopes in particular is that they are based on a very slow architecture and generally perform poorly when doing demanding tasks. Then there are the software options, which not only are often priced just out of this world but also compare poorly to what the competition offer.

Quote
Quote
Yeah, that's what you pay for the name. Tek believes the fact that they were the number one scope maker when analoog scopes were a thing some 30 years ago is still worth something when they have been making some of the worst digital scopes in history. And the MSO5 isn't a lot better, we one in for assessment a couple of times and still found embarrassing bugs that should not exist in a product at this price.

There's a reason Tektronix has seen dwindling sales for about two decades while scopes sales mostly went to Keysight and LeCroy.

Oh no :-[. I don't know much about tektronix scopes. I'm using agilent 3000, 100MHz. Really they have lot of bugs & failures? Is it the reason lot of encore products are available in Tek website.

Well, all manufacturers offer refurbished equipment at reduced prices but Tektronix still seems to think they are in a position to charge more than competitors just because.

We buy a lot of test equipment, but we haven't bought Tektronix for a very long time simply because the scopes are so bad.

Quote
Quote
And in addition, R&S actually provides real support where Tek often stalls and is unwilling to fix (or even acknowledge) issues with its products. That's at least the case in Europe and the U.S. (who knows, maybe Tek India is different).

Really thank you for this valuable point. Before comparing the spec, we need consider this point. I say that they are giving really a good support before buying the instrument. I really don't know about after sales or service support.

Well I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. It often makes even many cheap Chinese brands look good.


Quote
Quote
Yes, This is pretty much standard for most 1GHz scope. They all come with passive probes which are pretty poor for signals over say 300MHz in general anyways.

I really get stuck up. This is why I thinking of about Tek.

Tektronix does have some nice probes, but the good thing is that many other brands offer adapters to use them with non-Tektronix scopes.

Quote
Quote
Also, R&S has the RTA4004 which is a 10bit scope and which is offered in a 1GHz version.

Then there is Keysight (DSO-X4kA/6kA, Infiniium-S) and LeCroy (WaveSurfer 4000HD, HDO Series) which are the top two manufacturers when it comes to scopes. Leaving them out of consideration means you might be missing out on what at the end of the day may be better tools.

Thanks for pointing this. I will look for this two product also.

Also, look at refurbished/ex-demo scopes from both manufacturers (and R&S as well), as they can be notably cheaper than "new" scopes and often carry full factory warranty anyways.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 03:58:59 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 
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Offline jjoonathan

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Re: EMI debugging

The RTO, even the RTO1000, even without the zone trigger option, has the ability to stop on a FFT spectrum mask violation and then look around with your gate to isolate the event in time and look for other traces (or even bus traffic) that caused it. That's killer. A scope will never have the spur-free range or calibrated level accuracy / input impedance match of a spectrum analyzer, but it can often be good enough (~.25dB level accuracy and 45dBc spec'd third harmonic distortion, usually ~60dBc at low frequency, POI is poor vs a RTSA but excellent vs a swept SA), and then it has a much greater real-time bandwidth and the ability to time-correlate.

Fun side note: R&S supports using RTO and RTP oscilloscopes as digitizers for their ultra-high-end spectrum analyzers if the built in bandwidth isn't enough. Obviously it's a tradeoff -- the SA won't retain its SFDR and probably not noise floor in that configuration -- but even fancy-schmancy RF labs can find it in their hearts to put up with these tradeoffs.
 
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