Author Topic: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?  (Read 11622 times)

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Offline kripton2035

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2014, 10:10:34 am »
the mso1000 series does serial decoding or i2c or spi as well, not only display the logic signals.

Offline Fungus

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2014, 10:17:07 am »
So companies need to up the price by quite a bit to even pay for the enginieering costs, let alone get any profit out of it. So in the end it all comes down to the price tag you see today.

I'm not sure Salae have done their business plan correctly. Maybe their target market can't support that many expensive designer offices and company cars.


 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2014, 10:19:04 am »
the mso1000 series does serial decoding or i2c or spi as well, not only display the logic signals.

The DS1054Z can do that too.

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2014, 10:23:52 am »
...
I dint think thats always true,
for example my lab at university don't care bout calibration just about warranty and fast repair if something breaks.
My Prof. never wanted anything hacked or so as he has enough disposable funding to pay for it, but because of warranty and not breaking and not calibration.

But on topic what would be the typical use cases of a standalone logic analyzer that has a limited memory depth?
Other than looking with your 60Hz resolving eyes on the states in real time.

I wonder if I would be better suited with a  Bus Pirate (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Bus_Pirate) + DSO instead of an MSO

EDIT: uuuuu!!! that looks promissing http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/DSLogic-p-2184.html

Should I open a separate thread on cheep logic analyzers?



Some people  need tools for test and measure and characterize physical layer. Risetimes, jitters, tresholds, timing over different transmission lines and electronics.
Some peoples are interested for analyze what data/messages is transmitted and received and analyze / sniff  these messages. 
These are some amount of different things.

(oscilloscopes implemented "simply" "logic analyzers" are not good in this and they are not good also if want know what are messages over physical layer and protocol.  They are not perfect tool for anything but with these can do some amount both. )

If want "record" data transmission long time and then with good handy tools analyze what data there is in messages...  it need somethong other than cheap or medium class oscilloscope with digital inputs (MSO)

« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 10:26:27 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Creep

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2014, 10:29:53 am »
You can't seriously expect a company to working without profit. Remember, every company's aim is profit, not charity. So you would have liked them to work in rotten basements with mice running around? Everyone thrives for better working conditions, for themselves and their workers.
You seem to be misinterpreting my previous reply: I'm not saying companies work without profit, I said they need to raise the price tag way above the manufacturing costs for the development of the device to even pay off. So the price is then raised even more. Any sane company would keep raising the prices to the point where they feel the sales might start dropping too much to realistically go any further. That's why it's called a bussiness.
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2014, 10:37:52 am »
What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has.
I'm perfectly aware of that, I just argue that not all customers of a company should be asked to pay equal for that overhead expenses, instead the amount should depend on if they just want to play/learn with it or actually going to work with it and are expecting a return on investment at some point.


Other than looking with your 60Hz resolving eyes on the states in real time.

Don't underestimate the value of that...
I don't i know that thats use full :D

Quote
No. There's far too many of them and the real value of a logic analyzer is in the software.
To be honest I don't care for the software if I get a C++ lib to talk to the driver and get the raw recorded data, I can and do write my own software to evaluate the recorded data.
So I only need a solid hardware that I can in the end dump the raw data to SSD...

Quote
PPS: And you haven't said what you want the logic analyser for.
I would just say everything... I don't really have a plan right now what to do with a fast logic analyzer...
I first look for a solution and than search for a problem to solve with... and learn something in the process...

For example:
Something that is also to expensive are KVM over IP solutions, I would really like to have one, but paying more than 100€ would be stupid as I can use VNC and if my home server stuck on some boot screen boot screen I can always call my mum and guide her by phone to properly reboot the machine to a state where i can continue with VNC.

But I still would like to have one so I already thought a few times about building one my self, thats not so trivial as its a lot of data to handle. I think a logic analyzer would come in handy here for example.


Next example:
Something that is also to expensive are Head mounted displays, especially the military monocular once, I got a pair of old vuzix vga gaming glasses of ebay to build a monocular HMD out of that worked until one day the electronic broke i have an other pair in normal working condition. So I could find out how to drive the micro displays of the broken unit directly and use them for something.


Other slow things I can do already now with the Salae I would just like more channels much more channels.


Quote
the mso1000 series does serial decoding or i2c or spi as well, not only display the logic signals.
and what else?
 

Offline Creep

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2014, 01:32:53 pm »
So, if Rigol for example makes a scope targeted at the hobby audience, then who is going to pay for it's engineering costs? It's not like all that many commercial costumers are going to be buying it. And in case you are thinking that they are going to earn their share by selling the higher end scopes, then why in the world would they bother making the entry-level scopes in the first place?
In my opinion the only ones who should receive any support like this (i.e. price reduction), if anyone at all, are the engineering students. Those are the people that could potentially leave their mark in the industry and their studies should be supported and encouraged. I mean, how often do these "tinkerers" become engineers? And in the end, this kind of support usually comes from the government or the real big time organizations like Microsoft etc.
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2014, 02:24:04 pm »
They should not make any scopes targeted on hobby users, just sell normal scopes at half the price or below to the hobby users.
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2014, 02:27:57 pm »
What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has.

I'm perfectly aware of that, I just argue that not all customers of a company should be asked to pay equal for that overhead expenses, instead the amount should depend on if they just want to play/learn with it or actually going to work with it and are expecting a return on investment at some point.

OK, so you manufacture a 200USD widget for the professional market.  With manufacturing costs, R&D and operating costs running 150USD, you get 50USD profit per device.  I come along and ask you to sell me your widget for 150USD because I am a hobbyist.  For whatever reason, you agree  and sell it to me at break even price.  Now, I tell all my friends and they come to you wanting the same deal.  Are you going to say no after you did it for me?  Now you aren't making any money to pay your bills and give your family the quality of life your employees have.  Oh, by the way, I lied about being a hobbyist.  I am doing a small start up to manufacture my own widgets and I am trying to cut my R&D costs by getting equipment cheap.

I might consider an educational discount with a verifiable .edu email address, a current copy of report card and a letter of recommendation from your professor as to the usefullness of the item for your learning.  However, I won't sell it for cost, I will still make some profit on it.
"Heaven has been described as the place that once you get there all the dogs you ever loved run up to greet you."
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2014, 02:40:52 pm »
What the author doesn't seem to realise is that the manufacturing cost of a device is not the only expense the a company has.

I'm perfectly aware of that, I just argue that not all customers of a company should be asked to pay equal for that overhead expenses, instead the amount should depend on if they just want to play/learn with it or actually going to work with it and are expecting a return on investment at some point.

OK, so you manufacture a 200USD widget for the professional market.  With manufacturing costs, R&D and operating costs running 150USD, you get 50USD profit per device.  I come along and ask you to sell me your widget for 150USD because I am a hobbyist.  For whatever reason, you agree  and sell it to me at break even price.  Now, I tell all my friends and they come to you wanting the same deal.  Are you going to say no after you did it for me?  Now you aren't making any money to pay your bills and give your family the quality of life your employees have.  Oh, by the way, I lied about being a hobbyist.  I am doing a small start up to manufacture my own widgets and I am trying to cut my R&D costs by getting equipment cheap.

I might consider an educational discount with a verifiable .edu email address, a current copy of report card and a letter of recommendation from your professor as to the usefullness of the item for your learning.  However, I won't sell it for cost, I will still make some profit on it.

Only because you in this case play a layer and a cheat does not mean that every company must ripoff honest people just wanting to learn more about electronics or kill some spare time building something to make their own live easier.


PS: pleas stop the offtopic, we are here  not in a economy board, but in a hardware/electronics board.
Some input about the usefulness or lack there of of a MSO would be more appropriate.

Trax
« Last Edit: November 22, 2014, 02:46:01 pm by Trax »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #35 on: November 22, 2014, 03:11:29 pm »
I think having digital channels on an oscilloscope makes it more versatile. In my experience an MSO can do 95% of the logic analysis tasks you may encounter so it is definitely worth it to have digital channels on an oscilloscope but only up to 8 channels.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Trax

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #36 on: November 22, 2014, 03:56:14 pm »
Could you please elaborate a bit more on what would be the typical logic analysis tasks you may encounter?
 

Offline David_AVD

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2014, 10:05:21 pm »
They should not make any scopes targeted on hobby users, just sell normal scopes at half the price or below to the hobby users.

What a ridiculous thing to say.  You ignorance on the way business (and the world in general) works is astounding.   :palm:
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2014, 11:15:28 pm »
Specially when a big buyer (commercial user) is more likely to get a better discount than a single buyer (hobby user)

Yeah, I also wished everything I want had a special price just for me but my work to be paid at a higher rate than the rest as well.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2014, 01:46:11 am »
Could you please elaborate a bit more on what would be the typical logic analysis tasks you may encounter?
Anything goes... checking SPI, I2C, UART communication, timings on an LCD display, signals from an FPGA, etc, etc.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Affordable 4Channel MSO ?
« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2014, 02:23:34 am »
Could you please elaborate a bit more on what would be the typical logic analysis tasks you may encounter?
Anything goes... checking SPI, I2C, UART communication, timings on an LCD display, signals from an FPGA, etc, etc.

Of course a "Saleae Logic Analyzer" is more of a logic decoder. I'm not sure about the newer stuff. It is a useful tool but not a real Logic Analyzer.
 


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