Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
[...]
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).
That's very little money for such a scope. You're pretty much stuck with Rigol MSO1104z here.
FYI: USB2 SuperSpeed requires a 2Ghz scope, and USB3.x a 13Ghz scope. Even USB1.0 wants 250Mhz BW.I can't deny: I'm pretty clueless concerning USB... ;)
I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me.Which used scope will you recommend?
Have a look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252)
Oh, I forgot to mention:
I don't like the PC/USB scopes. I want to turn knobs by my fingers, not by mouse on PC screen.
You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?
CAN and USB3 are "nice to have" but not essential.
You might want to watch this one and get lucky in Germany.Nicht wirklich:
Keysight MSOX3104T Oszilloskop, 4 + 16 Kanal, Touch Screen, 1 GHz bis 5 GSa/s
...
(though if i had a lecroy i would costantly play with that lovely black lady)LeCroy is no alternative, they make impressing scopes, but not for my private budget...
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?Be prepared to live with shortcomings (bugs) and features with little practical use (like short/slow FFT, decoding only what is on screen, high-res modes being limited to only a few kpts of memory). I lost my appetite for cheap Chinese scopes after I got burned pretty bad a couple of years ago by believing the firmware would get fixed soon. So make sure to test everything on a scope right after you buy it and if you find anything you can't live with return it immediately. If you can drop the MSO requirement and stretch your budget a bit more you could buy the GW Instek GDS-2074E (70MHz 4 channels). Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054Z but don't expect miracles (even though it seems Rigol has ironed out most of the problematic issues recently).
I lost my appetite for cheap Chinese scopes after I got burned pretty bad a couple of years ago by believing the firmware would get fixed soon. So make sure to test everything on a scope right after you buy it and if you find anything you can't live with return it immediately.
it seems Rigol has ironed out most of the problematic issues recently
Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054ZThat ignores out one of the most basic requirements ("MSO").
What about the Rigol DS1074Z plus or Rigol DS1104Z plus?Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054ZThat ignores out one of the most basic requirements ("MSO").
What about the Rigol DS1074Z plus or Rigol DS1104Z plus?The "plus" is a DS1074Z which can be upgraded (by paying money) to the MSO1074Z
Are they as bugfree and well known as the 1054Z?
Is there an overview, which features are upgradable by software?At the bottom of that page there's a list of options.
And which working hacks are available?
I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me.
Which used scope will you recommend?
I think, here in Germany used equippment is much more expensive compared to US.
With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...Which used scope will you recommend?...There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.
At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device).
...There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...
Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...
Thank you.It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.
Here you go:
www.ebay.com/ (http://www.ebay.com/)...
Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.Indeed which is why I only linked to 4 channel models. AFAIK the DSO/MSO6000 can also trigger on USB packets (1.5Mbit and 12Mbit).
@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extra which should get into the ballpark of 23%.No I'm not sure about it, that's why I wrote "about 30%". That's what I paid for import from China.
I think there's a promo deal on these at the moment:If I chose the 70MHz model SDS2074X they deliver 100MHz model SDS2104X for the same price (1099 EURO).
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1 (http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1)
It'll do everything you've listed except USB.
These can be hacked for decoding and MSO options.Is this...
So, a used Agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034A maybe the solution, if I could get one in good condition and for a reasonable price from german or european sellerIf I where you I'd try and buy one of the DSO6000 I linked to a few posts earlier from Keysight's Ebay factory outlet. Yes, you can buy used scopes with a 30 day warranty from Keysight. Keysight is known to take reasonable best offers and shipping from Malaysia doesn't need to be expensive. The DSO6000 isn't the newest model but the 8Mpts memory is twice of what the modern Keysight scopes (2000/3000/4000 series) offer but otherwise the features are very close. IF you can stretch your budget I strongly advise to get the DSO6014 because it fits your requirements the best for the least amount of money.
"These can be hacked for decoding and MSO options."https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/)
Can you give a link to more hacking info?
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).
- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.
Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
A spreadsheet would work well here.How?
- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (separate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
A spreadsheet would work well here.How?
The OP has given enough detail of his requirements to make a informed recommendation.Quote- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (separate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
Any manufacturer's website and instrument datasheet will show whether their product will meet his spec or not.
Simple.
Thanks for all your replies! :-+
No, USB and CAN decoding is not required, as I said just only "nice to have".
The scope will be used in my hobby lab, so my budged is limited.
1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
It's a difficult decision which scope will fit my coming expectations...
Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs.
List price on the website for a SDS2074X (70 MHz) is € 1099. I mentioned the promo much earlier in this thread, that is you'll get a BW upgrade free of charge to 100 MHz.Others might have a different spin on how to interpret the OP's requirement but I don't see any problems in meeting his needs.
Siglent SDS2104X? 1800 EURO is nearly twice the money I wanted to spend.
Asking for a Demo model is a nice idea...
I really don't know much about Siglent..I've provided links for you to do your own research and make your own conclusions earlier in this thread.
Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.Indeed which is why I only linked to 4 channel models.
Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
Can we take anything you say with a grain of salt?Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
3. GW Instek
...
5. Rigol
6. Siglent
7. OWON
Is there even a notable difference? Both offer cheap bargain basement gear with OK (Rigol) to good (Siglent) hardware quality which will be riddled with firmware bugs when it comes to market, and these bugs may or may not be fixed in subsequent years.:-DD
Can we take anything you say with a grain of salt?Could you make a ranking list regarding make quality oft these makers?
1. Agilent/HP/Keysight
3. GW Instek
...
5. Rigol
6. Siglent
7. OWON
Not 5 minutes after you post this^^^ you post this in another thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/osciloscope-recommendation/msg1046794/#msg1046794 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/osciloscope-recommendation/msg1046794/#msg1046794)QuoteIs there even a notable difference? Both offer cheap bargain basement gear with OK (Rigol) to good (Siglent) hardware quality which will be riddled with firmware bugs when it comes to market, and these bugs may or may not be fixed in subsequent years.:-DD
I really like how these topics with theme "I'm not very advanced user and would like to buy something that would allow me to do basic things but I don't have much money" degrade to discussion how a $10000 scope is better than one you can buy for $350..
Everybody should stay on the topic...
He said sub 1000€ ..
Yeah, but he also said 70-100Mhz, 4ch, MSO, separate vertical controls and serial decode for CAN and USB1/2/3. Which is not possible within that budget.
Which leave two options:
- Cut down on the requirements and find something that fits in the budget
or
- Increase the budget to get something which at least satisfies the most important bit of the requirements.
I'm not sure why you apparently believe that only the first option is worth discussing.
So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.
1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
Couldn't agree more...So you and I don't disagree, I just thought he has a 1000€ hard limit, usually when people don't they don't write exact number.. They ask for something like "mid range" or something like that.
Well, it seems the limit actually isn't that hard:1000 EURO was just a number in my head, maybe I have to increase.
I guess the real problem is that some monetary figure and a batch of top-level specs are hardly enough to make a sensible recommendation. Without knowing what the scope is going to be used for, and where the actual budget limit is, it's pretty much all guesswork.
I would personally buy Rigol DS1000Z series and be done with it...
but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'. Keysight will answer questions about any type of equipment they made to their best ability so support is top notch. Besides that I'm quite sure extra warranty can be bought for a used DSO6000 series.
I really don't know much about Siglent...Trust me: you want to keep it that way. In general their firmware is riddled with bugs and some features have no practical use (checkbox feature). I bought a Siglent SDS2204 a couple of years ago but the scope turned out to be unuseable. The promised firmware updates fixed nothing or just didn't come. If you read the thread about the SDS2000X series (updated SDS2000) you'll see there are still many bugs and shortcomings (like Hires mode only working on 14kps record length). I ended up wasting a lot of money and in the end I sold the scope for scrap! The dealer didn't even want to take it back.
Is there a 4 channel DSO6000 on 'Keysight's official factory outlet' for the stated budget? The ones you posted were $1500 and $2170 respectively.but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'.
I'm quite sure extra warranty can be bought for a used DSO6000 series.
And? As the OP wrote 1000 euro is just a number in his head AND Keysight is knows to take best offers so it may be possible to knock a couple of hundred of the prices in the Keysight store.Is there a 4 channel DSO6000 on 'Keysight's official factory outlet' for the stated budget? The ones you posted were $1500 and $2170 respectively.but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'.
And? As the OP wrote 1000 euro is just a number in his head AND Keysight is knows to take best offers so it may be possible to knock a couple of hundred of the prices in the Keysight store.And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.
And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.Actually, when you buy from the Keysight store and live in Germany, the invoicing is done through Keysight Germany.
@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extraNo I'm not sure about it, that's why I wrote "about 30%". That's what I paid for import from China.
And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.Actually, when you buy from the Keysight store and live in Germany, the invoicing is done through Keysight Germany.
I bought a few things from them and never had a problem.
Hello,At this point, my best advice would be save up. With 600 Eur more, you can get a 4 channel R&S HMO model 70Mhz upgradable to 100Mhz. You will have most of the benefits you listed.
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).
- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)
I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.
Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
costs nothing to drop a line to keysight/keysight ebay store and ask.
It would actually be big points for keysight if they really did that
but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)
by the way, here as in most of europe you pay VAT + some percent. the other fees are from the courier/post because he is SO MUCH kind that he does the paperwork and pay customs for you without even asking. in exchange for an additional fee of courseNot true! I can get things without paying the extra. So long as I'm prepared to travel 300km to Madrid to get it in person.
At this point, my best advice would be save up. With 600 Eur more, you can get a 4 channel R&S HMO model 70Mhz upgradable to 100Mhz. You will have most of the benefits you listed.Yes, yesterday I had a look at the R&S website.
For USB decoding, I don't think it's something you can do with an oscilloscope, you probably need a protocol analyzer to deal with that kind of traffic, since there are adresses, datas and control signals involved...USB is off the stove, I'll probably never use that feature.
but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)Apart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.
With the most recent firmware a hacked DS1054Z is a good deal but on a $1200 scope you can find features missing on the DS1054Z besides a bigger screen, higher samplerate, more memory and faster operation. So if you can spend $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.I only recommend the DS1054Z because it's unlockable/hackable. If you draw a graph of price vs. performance the DS1054Z competes squarely with 'scopes which cost $1200.but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)Apart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.
So if you can spend $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.
WITH the latest firmware from a couple of weeks ago. You carefully snipped that part.So if you can spend $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.
So you finally admit that below about $1200 it is the best buy. And for only $400! Thanks! :)
WITH the latest firmware from a couple of weeks ago. You carefully snipped that part.So if you can spend $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.
So you finally admit that below about $1200 it is the best buy. And for only $400! Thanks! :)
Keep on dreaming :horse:
v00.04.04.01.01 2016/09/14
- Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
- Fixed bugs about Measure
costs nothing to drop a line toAsk any of the professional sellers on ebay for a shipping quote DDP, then you know the total cost with no surprises. I've been able to get DDP terms quoted from all the major ebay sellers.keysighta professional ebay store and ask.
Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
If someone want to sell me his device, please send PM. ;)
At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device)....There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.Which used scope will you recommend?