Author Topic: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?  (Read 14793 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« on: October 12, 2016, 11:35:05 am »
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).

- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)

I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.

Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...

What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 11:42:11 am by carl_lab »
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2625
  • Country: it
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 11:45:16 am »
If you have a PC
If you don't have need for high voltage

Consider a picoscope. You can try the software in "demo mode" so you can look around all the functions.
Only thing i'm not sure about is serial decode triggering and usb 3 decoding.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10659
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 11:45:46 am »
I think only Rigol makes something in that price range that comes close.

Even then you won't get:
- Seperate(sic) knobs per channel
- CAN decoding and triggering
- USB/2/3 decoding and triggering  (you need a lot more than 100MHz BW for that)

Plus: The screen is a bit small to fit all that information on and the "MSO" version of the Rigol 'scopes is very difficult to hack. You may have to pay for the serial decoders, etc.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/rigol/MSO1000Z.html

 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 11:51:45 am »
Oh, I forgot to mention:
I don't like the PC/USB scopes. I want to turn knobs by my fingers, not by mouse on PC screen.

You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?

CAN and USB3 are "nice to have" but not essential.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 11:55:50 am by carl_lab »
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2962
  • Country: gb
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 11:59:44 am »
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).

That's very little money for such a scope. You're pretty much stuck with Rigol MSO1104z here.

Quote
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)

Well, the MSO1104z has a single vertical encoder, pretty much like most scopes in that price segment.

Quote
- upgradeability to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability

There's no CAN in the MSO1104z.

Quote
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
[...]
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability

You're joking, right? FYI: USB2 SuperSpeed requires a 2Ghz scope, and USB3.x a 13Ghz scope. Even USB1.0 wants 250Mhz BW.

Have a look here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252

Quote
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)

Batronix has the MSO1104z on offer.

Quote
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?

That depends on what you want to do and your expectations, really. I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me. Others are perfectly happy with their Chinese B-brand gear.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2962
  • Country: gb
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 12:04:49 pm »
You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?

Not in your price range.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10659
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2016, 12:06:58 pm »
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).

That's very little money for such a scope. You're pretty much stuck with Rigol MSO1104z here.


Not even that. You're limited to the MSO1074Z if you only have $1100 and have to pay for serial decoders.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 12:23:34 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4422
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2016, 12:19:02 pm »
You might want to watch this one and get lucky in Germany.

Keysight MSOX3104T Oszilloskop, 4 + 16 Kanal, Touch Screen, 1 GHz bis 5 GSa/s
http://www.ebay.de/itm/252578197403

May be ask the seller, what his minimum is for selling.
Sitting at: EUR 671,00 right now.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 
The following users thanked this post: kripton2035

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2016, 12:20:41 pm »
FYI: USB2 SuperSpeed requires a 2Ghz scope, and USB3.x a 13Ghz scope. Even USB1.0 wants 250Mhz BW.
I can't deny: I'm pretty clueless concerning USB...  ;)

I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me.
Which used scope will you recommend?
I think, here in Germany used equippment is much more expensive compared to US.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 12:27:37 pm by carl_lab »
 

Offline JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2625
  • Country: it
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2016, 12:25:45 pm »
Have a look here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/busses-serial-links-and-required-scope-bandwidth/msg873252/#msg873252

Nice one. Thanks!

Oh, I forgot to mention:
I don't like the PC/USB scopes. I want to turn knobs by my fingers, not by mouse on PC screen.

You mentioned Rigol - is BW Instek an alternative to?

CAN and USB3 are "nice to have" but not essential.

CAN alone will probably get you over budget on a "physical" scope. Siglent and GWi are the starters

That's up to you of course, i'd usually tend to agree with you but if you want to do real work, with you budget constraint a pico is something you can't overlook. Your money is going on acquisition only and not in trying to keep up an user interface.
Plus a biiiiig screen and all the data is already csv, or matlab compatible.
It also depends on how your work area is laid out, of course. Working on certain stuff, or when near the PC, i hook up the (2 chan) pico. Absolutely need 4 chan....... basically that, i reach for another scope.

(though if i had a lecroy i would costantly play with that lovely black lady)
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2016, 12:31:55 pm »
You might want to watch this one and get lucky in Germany.

Keysight MSOX3104T Oszilloskop, 4 + 16 Kanal, Touch Screen, 1 GHz bis 5 GSa/s
...
Nicht wirklich:
"Frage: Wie hoch ist denn ihr Mindestpreis? Danke
Antwort: Der Mindestpreis ist 3499 EUR. MfG"

(though if i had a lecroy i would costantly play with that lovely black lady)
LeCroy is no alternative, they make impressing scopes, but not for my private budget...
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 01:14:23 pm by carl_lab »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19424
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 12:33:49 pm »
What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
Be prepared to live with shortcomings (bugs) and features with little practical use (like short/slow FFT, decoding only what is on screen, high-res modes being limited to only a few kpts of memory). I lost my appetite for cheap Chinese scopes after I got burned pretty bad a couple of years ago by believing the firmware would get fixed soon. So make sure to test everything on a scope right after you buy it and if you find anything you can't live with return it immediately. If you can drop the MSO requirement and stretch your budget a bit more you could buy the GW Instek GDS-2074E (70MHz 4 channels). Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054Z but don't expect miracles (even though it seems Rigol has ironed out most of the problematic issues recently).

Going for a used scope is an option as well IF you don't want decoding. Protocol decoding is relatively new so not available on older higher end oscilloscopes which would fit in your budget. Otherwise one of the older Agilent MSOs could be interesting but I don't know whether these where ever made with 4 analog channels.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10659
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 12:49:57 pm »
I lost my appetite for cheap Chinese scopes after I got burned pretty bad a couple of years ago by believing the firmware would get fixed soon. So make sure to test everything on a scope right after you buy it and if you find anything you can't live with return it immediately.

Luckily for Rigol buyers, it's one of the most dissected and studied 'scopes available on the market. There are (hopefully) zero unknowns with regards to bugs, etc.

it seems Rigol has ironed out most of the problematic issues recently

Correct. Rigol today is about as bug-free as oscilloscopes get. I think we're down to a spelling mistake in one of the menus.


Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054Z
That ignores out one of the most basic requirements ("MSO").

But... why is that a requirement? Four analog channels with serial decoding goes a long way and you still have $700 left over from the budget for a separate logic analyzer if you need one. Even if you buy a top-end Saleae device you'll still have money left. Insisting on an MSO-with-everything doesn't make much sense if you have a limited budget.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 12:52:41 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2016, 01:26:45 pm »
Otherwise settle for a hacked Rigol 1054Z
That ignores out one of the most basic requirements ("MSO").
What about the Rigol DS1074Z plus or Rigol DS1104Z plus?
http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus.html

Are they as bugfree and well known as the 1054Z?
Is there an overview, which features are upgradable by software?
And which working hacks are available?
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10659
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2016, 01:52:33 pm »
What about the Rigol DS1074Z plus or Rigol DS1104Z plus?
The "plus" is a DS1074Z which can be upgraded (by paying money) to the MSO1074Z

Are they as bugfree and well known as the 1054Z?

The firmware is probably the same.

Is there an overview, which features are upgradable by software?
And which working hacks are available?
At the bottom of that page there's a list of options.

http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1074Z-Plus.html

eg. The €249 "Rigol MSO1000Z Upgrade" is to unlock the MSO option (and includes the logic probes).

The €165 "Serial Decoder" option is to unlock the serial decoders.

As far as I know there's no easy way to hack/unlock the software options on the "plus" models. Only the base models can be unlocked with a simple keygen.


 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2962
  • Country: gb
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2016, 02:10:08 pm »
I personally would rather buy a 2nd hand big brand scope than a new Chinese B-brand scope, but that's me.

Which used scope will you recommend?

Hard to say without knowing what exactly you want to do with it. But considering your narrow budget and that you want MSO there really isn't a lot of choice. There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.

With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.

Now, if you can be flexible on the MSO part and rather get an USB LA (which also does protocol decoding) then there are a few more options, some of which can also offer you more BW.

But again, without knowing what you want to do, it's all guesswork only, really.

Quote
I think, here in Germany used equippment is much more expensive compared to US.

Not much different here in the Brexit UK, but still buying abroad gives more choice and often more reasonable prices - even after shipping and VAT/customs.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 02:25:35 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19424
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2016, 02:50:46 pm »
With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.
If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2016, 04:06:01 pm »
With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.
If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.
If someone want to sell me his device, please send PM.  ;)

At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device).

Which used scope will you recommend?
...There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.
Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...
Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 07:25:56 am by carl_lab »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19424
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 04:12:30 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2962
  • Country: gb
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2016, 04:28:48 pm »
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.

Here you go:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-Keysight-MSO6032A-Mixed-Signal-Oscilloscope-2-16-Channel-300Mhz-NICE-/222209457957?hash=item33bcb73f25:g:-5kAAOSwaB5Xo2AA

Quote
At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device).

Yes, but that's a current scope. The MSO6k is approx 6-10 yrs old.

Quote
...There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.
Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...

The 54645D is older (it's HP labelled), doesn't do UART/SPI/CAN, and only has 1Mpts memory. The 54622D is the successor generation, labelled Agilent, slightly more modern UI, and with 4Mpts or 8Mpts (can't remember).

Quote
Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...

The Agilent 54600s have serial trigger capability but if I remember right they can do decode as well. But it's been many years since I saw one (I have a 54645D but again that's the older HP variant) so maybe someone else could comment.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12124
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2016, 04:41:18 pm »
Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.
 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 18090
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. NZ Siglent Distributor
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2016, 07:08:02 pm »
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.

Here you go:
www.ebay.com/...
Thank you.
At first sight it looks OK, but I have to add 250$ shipping and about 30% import tax.
900$+250$=1150$
30% = 345$
Total: 1495$ = 1350 EURO , and it has 2 analog channels only.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19424
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2016, 07:11:09 pm »
Note that on the DSO/MSO6000 series, decodes are only available for units with 4 analogue channels, regardless of MSO or not.
Indeed which is why I only linked to 4 channel models. AFAIK the DSO/MSO6000 can also trigger on USB packets (1.5Mbit and 12Mbit).

@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extra which should get into the ballpark of 23%.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 07:12:57 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2016, 07:40:56 pm »
@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extra which should get into the ballpark of 23%.
No I'm not sure about it, that's why I wrote "about 30%". That's what I paid for import from China.
Anyway, about 5% difference is not the problem, it's the missing ability of decoding at the 2+16ch models.

I think there's a promo deal on these at the moment:
http://www.siglenteu.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1195&T=2&tid=1
It'll do everything you've listed except USB.
If I chose the 70MHz model SDS2074X they deliver 100MHz model SDS2104X for the same price (1099 EURO).
That's not bad, but you also have to order the upgrade kit (serial decode, 16ch LA, 16ch probes,...) for 434 EURO. Total plus 19% VAT = 1825 EURO.
That's a lot more than my personal limit...

So, a used Agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034A maybe the solution, if I could get one in good condition and for a reasonable price from german or european seller.

These can be hacked for decoding and MSO options.
Is this...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-mso-500060007000-anyone-hacked-these-scopes/
... the place to find all the info you need for hacking?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 08:30:42 pm by carl_lab »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf