Author Topic: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?  (Read 14759 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19413
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2016, 10:43:56 am »
but are the people on here telling newbies to buy second hand 'scopes on eBay going to take responsibility if it doesn't work when it arrives? I doubt it. Me? I think it's bad advice. I prefer to tell newbies to get something with a manufacturer's warranty.
I think you also missed the part 'Buying from Keysight's official factory outlet'.
Is there a 4 channel DSO6000 on 'Keysight's official factory outlet' for the stated budget? The ones you posted were $1500 and $2170 respectively.
And? As the OP wrote 1000 euro is just a number in his head AND Keysight is knows to take best offers so it may be possible to knock a couple of hundred of the prices in the Keysight store.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2016, 11:00:21 am »
And? As the OP wrote 1000 euro is just a number in his head AND Keysight is knows to take best offers so it may be possible to knock a couple of hundred of the prices in the Keysight store.
And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.

 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19413
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2016, 11:06:55 am »
Double? Only after he has been drinking too much. Please stop the FUD. Import duties are easy to look up and VAT is on every store receipt.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HighVoltage

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4422
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2016, 11:09:28 am »
And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.
Actually, when you buy from the Keysight store and live in Germany, the invoicing is done through Keysight Germany.
I bought a few things from them and never had a problem.

Also, the German Keysight distributor has some amazing deals right now, like 60% off on scopes.
May be they are hard to sell at the moment.

Edit: Added one more attachment
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 11:13:37 am by HighVoltage »
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2016, 11:09:56 am »
@carl_lab: are you sure about 30% import tax? Usually it is only VAT and 1 or 2 percent extra
No I'm not sure about it, that's why I wrote "about 30%". That's what I paid for import from China.

I don't know about Germany but here in Spain you get to pay VAT plus all sorts of extra "administration fees".
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2016, 11:11:33 am »
And? He also said he lives in Germany. I'm sure the German customs will happily add more than a couple of hundred back onto the price. If Keysight doesn't knock anything off then it could become double the number in his head.
Actually, when you buy from the Keysight store and live in Germany, the invoicing is done through Keysight Germany.
I bought a few things from them and never had a problem.

OK, if you say so (and are prepared to garantee that to the OP) then...  :-//
 

Offline R005T3r

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 387
  • Country: it
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2016, 11:27:31 am »
Hello,
please someone give me advice for buying a 4/16ch MSO for maximum 1100 US$ (1000 EURO).

- no PC/USB type oscilloscope
- 70/100 MHz analog BW (upgradeability preferred)
- 4 analog channels (seperate knobs per channel preferred, not like LeCroy - one set of knobs for all channels)
- upgradeability "MSO ready" to 16 digital channels usable simultaneously to the 4 analog channels
- serial decoding (and triggering) for analog and digital channels (I²C, RS232, SPI, ...)
- maybe CAN decoding and triggering upgradability
- maybe USB/2/3 decoding and triggering upgradability
- availability from european/german distributor (warranty)

I'd prefer devices, that can be bought in a cheaper "base" version, and upgraded later by software, and of course especially those, you can get working "hacks" for upgrading.

Because of maximum price of 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) I think, only chinese makers will be left over...

What do you think, is chinese stuff usable or just cheap crap that isn't worth the money?
At this point, my best advice would be save up. With 600 Eur more, you can get a 4 channel R&S HMO model 70Mhz upgradable to 100Mhz. You will have most of the benefits you listed.

For USB decoding, I don't think it's something you can do with an oscilloscope, you probably need a protocol analyzer to deal with that kind of traffic, since there are adresses, datas and control signals involved...
 

Online JPortici

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2624
  • Country: it
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2016, 11:31:37 am »
costs nothing to drop a line to keysight/keysight ebay store and ask. It would actually be big points for keysight if they really did that
but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)

by the way, here as in most of europe you pay VAT + some percent. the other fees are from the courier/post because he is SO MUCH kind that he does the paperwork and pay customs for you without even asking. in exchange for an additional fee of course
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2016, 12:10:37 pm »
costs nothing to drop a line to keysight/keysight ebay store and ask.

So basically: You don't know for sure.

It would actually be big points for keysight if they really did that

In fact you sound quite unsure.

but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)

Apart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.

And I can't help it if most of the questions here are of the form "I've only got $XXX to spend...". That's not my fault.

The simple fact is: Rigol rules the sub-$1200 category (at the moment).

by the way, here as in most of europe you pay VAT + some percent. the other fees are from the courier/post because he is SO MUCH kind that he does the paperwork and pay customs for you without even asking. in exchange for an additional fee of course
Not true! I can get things without paying the extra. So long as I'm prepared to travel 300km to Madrid to get it in person.
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2016, 12:28:45 pm »
At this point, my best advice would be save up. With 600 Eur more, you can get a 4 channel R&S HMO model 70Mhz upgradable to 100Mhz. You will have most of the benefits you listed.
Yes, yesterday I had a look at the R&S website.

For USB decoding, I don't think it's something you can do with an oscilloscope, you probably need a protocol analyzer to deal with that kind of traffic, since there are adresses, datas and control signals involved...
USB is off the stove, I'll probably never use that feature.
So I crossed it out in my first posting.

I think, I'll go for a used agilent DSO6014A or DSO6034A, if I can get one for a good price.

If not, eventually Rigol or GW Instek... I'm not quite certain.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:32:40 pm by carl_lab »
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2016, 12:41:26 pm »
but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)
Apart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.

And let's be very, very clear. Let's see if this will finally get past the thick skulls of the Rigol haters here:

I only recommend the DS1054Z because it's unlockable/hackable. If you draw a graph of price vs. performance the DS1054Z competes squarely with 'scopes which cost $1200.

If it wasn't hackable I'd be recommending GW-Instek in the $400 range, no question. Maybe something by R&S if you're going to spend over $1000.

(apologies in advance for the off-topic, I'm just responding to an underhanded insult)
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19413
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2016, 01:02:07 pm »
but of course you won't be happy until there will be only rigol on this planet (maybe not even then)
Apart from all the times I say don't get a Rigol.
I only recommend the DS1054Z because it's unlockable/hackable. If you draw a graph of price vs. performance the DS1054Z competes squarely with 'scopes which cost $1200.
With the most recent firmware a hacked DS1054Z is a good deal but on a $1200 scope you can find features missing on the DS1054Z besides a bigger screen, higher samplerate, more memory and faster operation. So if you can spend  $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2016, 01:18:20 pm »
So if you can spend  $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.

So you finally admit that below about $1200 it is the best buy. And for only $400! Thanks!  :)

(...unless you have a very specific need like good FFT performance, in which case get an R&S HMO)
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19413
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2016, 01:59:36 pm »
So if you can spend  $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.

So you finally admit that below about $1200 it is the best buy. And for only $400! Thanks!  :)
WITH the latest firmware from a couple of weeks ago. You carefully snipped that part.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7188
  • Country: us
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2016, 03:22:51 pm »
I think everybody has agreed that you can get a scope twice as good as the DS1054Z if you are willing to pay 3 times as much for it.  The '3 times as much' is a hard fact, the 'twice as good' being a subjective measurement.

At this point, the entire world knows that the bug list for the DS1054Z is down to one spelling error on a menu.  The latest firmware cleaned up the remaining problems and even those were at the fringe of functions.  But at least Rigol reads the reviews and works through the problems.  I have no idea how many upgrades have come out during the two years the scope has been on the market but it is several.  They're working hard on owning the entry level scope market.  Nobody is going to pay to add features and bandwidth when Rigol has made no attempt to prevent users from 'hacking' the feature list.  We can just assume the latest firmware and all featured enabled when comparing to other scopes.  It's a given...  There is nothing to be gained by reading through the 121 page bitch list - all that stuff is old news.  Similarly, the Yaigol (such a clever name...) thread is obsolete.

As to the user's needs?  Who knows?  They don't!  We have this same thread a couple of times a week, endlessly.  Somebody wants to buy a scope but they have no idea what they're going to use it for.  To make sure they don't run out of features, they price themselves right out of their budget.  Yes, I would love to have a mid-range Keysight.  But I can't afford it!  Or, rather, I could afford it but I have other priorities.

In my case, this stuff is just a hobby and only one of several hobbies at that.

OP:  I would consider the Keysight Malaysia scope if it comes with a warranty but I'm coming around to the conclusion that used scopes are off the table.  I got lucky when I bought my Tek 485 and it has worked well for the past 12 years.  My experience isn't necessarily typical.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2016, 05:11:06 pm »
So if you can spend  $1200 a DS1054Z will not be the best buy.

So you finally admit that below about $1200 it is the best buy. And for only $400! Thanks!  :)
WITH the latest firmware from a couple of weeks ago. You carefully snipped that part.

Nope. It was pretty damn good long before that, you were just to blind to see it.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19413
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2016, 05:15:10 pm »
Keep on dreaming  :horse:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10650
  • Country: 00
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2016, 05:23:16 pm »
Keep on dreaming  :horse:

Tell the world: What exactly was the killer bug that made it completely useless before the last firmware update?

I've got the release notes here:  :popcorn:

Code: [Select]
v00.04.04.01.01  2016/09/14
     - Supported the multi-inteface of LXI
     - Fixed bugs about Measure

The RMS voltage reading was wrong, that was the "Fixed bugs about Measure" part.

But:
* It was only wrong in some circumstances
* It was very obviously wrong, not subtly wrong
* "RMS" probably isn't the value you should have been looking at anyway.

Most of the examples posted here to show the 'bug' should have been using "Prms" instead. Prms was giving the correct value.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 05:28:28 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2448
  • Country: au
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2016, 09:27:24 pm »
costs nothing to drop a line to keysight a professional ebay store and ask.
Ask any of the professional sellers on ebay for a shipping quote DDP, then you know the total cost with no surprises. I've been able to get DDP terms quoted from all the major ebay sellers.
 

Online Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4830
  • Country: gb
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2016, 10:25:15 pm »
With some luck you might also be able to find an Agilent MSO6000 within your budget.
If one (MSO6000/DSO6000) is available for 1000 euro then it would probably be the best option by far.
It's hard to believe, to get a working MSO6000 for 1000 bucks.
If someone want to sell me his device, please send PM.  ;)

At work, we bought a MSOX3034T for ~5000 EURO or ~5500 US$ (used demo device).

Which used scope will you recommend?
...There's the Agilent 54622D but that's a 2ch MSO (and does UART/SPI/CAN), but I personally would take it over a Rigol any day. They often go for <$300 or so which means there would be room for some decent probes or other gear in your budget.
Is the 54622D much different to the 54645D? Maybe I could get one...
Didn't know these old scopes had any decoding ability...
[/quote]

Sorry a bit late to the party on this thread, but I didn't see this addressed.

54622D and 54642D are 2+16 MSOs with CRTs and are both awesome scopes, I have both, but they don't do serial decode. They will do serial triggering, including basic CAN SOF triggering. The 54622D also goes into equivalent time at faster sweeps as it's quite a low 200MHz sampling rate. The 54642D is much better from this perspective at 2GSa/s and is 500MHz bandwidth. Both have reasonable memory depth too. The UI is superb in terms of ease of use and quick response, and is still the basis for Keysight's low to mid range scopes to this day.

I also have the MSO1074Z-S, which is my field scope (i.e., it's a tiny lightweight package, full of features, and if it gets lost or damaged in an aircraft hold it's not going to break the bank). For the money it's difficult to fault in any way. Sure there are some minor annoyances but I'll very happily accept its compromises for the value it provides.

You'll often find a lot of proponents for separate USB PC based LAs instead of an MSO. For many of the lower cost units, for lower speed stuff then they can be useful, I have a selection, but even then 99 times out of 100 I prefer to use an MSO, although I know others think otherwise. Typically the benefit of an MSO is its triggering ability. On the other hand some LAs offer a post processing mode instead to search for scenarios after the event. My own workflow prefers being able to adjust the triggers rather than analyse enormous captures, but it also depends on the situation.

If you can get a second hand 4ch MSO6000 for a grand it's a no brainer. My daily driver is an MSO7000 which is pretty much identical electronically to a 6000 but with a bigger telly.
 

Offline carl_lab

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 418
  • Country: de
Re: Wanted: Best 4/16ch MSO for 1100 US$ (1000 EURO) or less?
« Reply #70 on: October 14, 2016, 06:16:28 pm »
Thanks, Howard!  :-+
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf