Weller WTCP-51 solder station and TCP-S pencil not working

[Faringdon]

Hi,
We are using this, and and  it only intermittently works
Do you know of common failure modes for this?

It just looks like a mains transformer with a linear regulator....


TCP-S solder pencil
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2824114.pdf

WTCP-51 solder station
https://mm.digikey.com/Volume0/opasdata/d220001/medias/docus/1294/T0053220699.pdf

This shows TCP pencil repair , but is that the same as TCP-S?



Also, the top of this (below)  says the WTCP-51 is not suitable for ESD operation as the "tip is not anti-static"...but surely the tip is earthed?
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1448594.pdf

[Gyro]

WTF kind of WTCP hack it that? An ebay triac dimmer on the input to the transformer? 

The WTCP51 is just a 24V transformer in a box. The TCP(-S) tip temperature is controlled by the curie point slug on the back of the tip and the magnastat switch in the iron. Varying the 24V AC supply to the iron makes zero sense.

Ten to one, if it's intermittent then it's the magnastat switch contacts or plunger, tapping on the bench should restore operation, you should be able to hear it clicking on and off.

If the tip is mains grounded (3 core silicone lead and mains lead) then it's ESD safe. If it isn't (2 core), then it's not.

The second video shows the test and repair procedure quite clearly.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, i am wondering if our problem is something to do with the fact that we have an adapter piece between the tip's bottom and the magnet in the stem.
Anyway will have to get it apart, and also, it looks like maybe  it'll be the magnet bit that will need replacing, or refurbishing, or the spring is too corroded to be springy.
I cant find the bits on the web, it seems a EC234 or a BA60 is needed, and one of these got updated, and wont fit in  come irons, so this is looking like a long job.

im amazed the "magnet  switch method" gives accurate temperature regulation....maybe it doesnt(?)

There must be some cheap temperature IC for this kind of thing..surely you just buy a cheap NTC, and bang it into an insulator so that when the solder tip is 400degc, the ntc is 125degc?

[andy2000]

im amazed the "magnet  switch method" gives accurate temperature regulation....maybe it doesnt(?)

There must be some cheap temperature IC for this kind of thing..surely you just buy a cheap NTC, and bang it into an insulator so that when the solder tip is 400degc, the ntc is 125degc?

It works well for 1960's technology, but you can obviously do better with a modern temperature controller.  The adjustable models have a thermistor in the tip, and an electronic control circuit.  If that's what you want, then it would make more sense to buy one rather than trying to modify what you have. 

[Gyro]

Curie point is actually very accurate (a few degrees). The only downside is that you need a different tip/slug for each temperature. The upside is that people on the  line can't mess with the temperature setting.

[Gyro]

Thanks, i am wondering if our problem is something to do with the fact that we have an adapter piece between the tip's bottom and the magnet in the stem.
Anyway will have to get it apart, and also, it looks like maybe  it'll be the magnet bit that will need replacing, or refurbishing, or the spring is too corroded to be springy.
I cant find the bits on the web, it seems a EC234 or a BA60 is needed, and one of these got updated, and wont fit in  come irons, so this is looking like a long job.

im amazed the "magnet  switch method" gives accurate temperature regulation....maybe it doesnt(?)

There must be some cheap temperature IC for this kind of thing..surely you just buy a cheap NTC, and bang it into an insulator so that when the solder tip is 400degc, the ntc is 125degc?

Weller TCP parts are readily available from CPC /Farnell...

https://cpc.farnell.com/c/tools-maintenance/soldering?st=weller+tcp&showResults=true

https://uk.farnell.com/c/tools-production-supplies?st=weller+tcp

(probably RS too, their site is down for maintenance at the moment)


EDIT: ... and RS. Basically everyone...  https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/?searchTerm=weller+tcp

[Faringdon]

Thanks,

Also, we are using WTCP-51 power unit with TCP-S solder pencil...but the following says TCP-S is for use with P51 power unit...so i wonder if thats our problem?
https://cpc.farnell.com/weller/0053210599/tcp-s-soldering-iron/dp/WL00272?st=weller%20tcp

[Gyro]

Firsty, stop using 'we' when you mean 'I'.

Secondly, why don't you look this basic stuff up for yourself rather than expecting other people to do it for you?! If you bother to look, WTCP51 is the code for the solder station, comprising TCP-S iron, P51 PSU and KH20 stand.

[EDIT: You even posted the Digikey and Farnell links to PDFs, clearly detailing the contents of the WTCP51 kit in your first post, was it too much trouble to read them yourself?]

The second video you posted shows, quite clearly, the steps that you need to take to diagnose the iron, simply using a meter resistance / continuity and 24V AC voltage ranges. Why don't you just undo those 3 little screws and do it rather than repeatedly wasting people's time with your 'wonderings'?

You really do make it hard for people to want to help you treez! 
 

[9a4wy]

We stoped using Weller TCP-S soldering pencils/stations and we moved to JBC...little expensive but much more reliable.
Most important thing...you can lock max. temp with password... so no independent change settings. From that point, we cut costs in half .
If you have TCP-S from 1990's they will last forever. But if you have later ones(I think they moved switch production to mexico) they will not last long. We had even new open box TCP-s switches that did not work.
I have here 20 WTCP-s stations with pencils, and they probably will go to garbage. They are good enough for work, but simply there is no point to keep them, switches are so bad.

[factory]

We had a couple of those newer units at work, the wire insulation inside the iron cable perished in one, it went hard & crunchy after only a few years use, causing an intermittent short, absolute garbage.  Never had this problem with the ancient units, the heater assembly got used repair an older one.
Wouldn't recommend any Weller products since quality has dropped and the infamous no-fuse incident Dave had. 

David

[Gyro]

We stoped using Weller TCP-S soldering pencils/stations and we moved to JBC...little expensive but much more reliable.
Most important thing...you can lock max. temp with password... so no independent change settings. From that point, we cut costs in half .
If you have TCP-S from 1990's they will last forever. But if you have later ones(I think they moved switch production to mexico) they will not last long. We had even new open box TCP-s switches that did not work.
I have here 20 WTCP-s stations with pencils, and they probably will go to garbage. They are good enough for work, but simply there is no point to keep them, switches are so bad.

Indeed, I have a TCP-S from the pre '90s that has never missed a beat (Rifa cap and all), it's reserved for 'two iron' jobs these days though. I suspect that there was a change in contact material on the later magnestat switches that develops an interface layer that takes more than 24V to break down. The original switches were also used in their mains element irons so probably had better contact composition than the later ones (after the mains ones were discontinued).

[stj]

i'm kind of amazed that everybody is focussed on the technology, MagnaStat / electronic / "dimmer",
rather than the fault.

having had many irons fail including several wellers, the most common failure is the cable.
it usually breaks under the insulation just where it leaves the handpiece because of the constant moving.
if you dont mind the cable being 4-6" shorter it's easy to fix without buying new cable - although it's a good idea once this problem happens to ditch the old stuff.

[Gyro]

i'm kind of amazed that everybody is focussed on the technology, MagnaStat / electronic / "dimmer",
rather than the fault.

If only it was possible to get the OP to do some basic fault-finding rather than doing lots of 'wondering', but given who the OP is...   I've tried [Edit: to the point of losing my temper, but all I get is 'thanked' as usual]


EDIT: Even this just got thanked rather than prompting him to actually do something!

[Faringdon]

Hi,
The magnastat temperature control system sounds terrible in terms of ESD.
I mean, the tip must be earthed  for ESD protectivity reasons.
But a tip that is loose when it "flicks up" away from the heater, "magnastat style",  cannot be earthed.
As such, I am surprised such a system exists.
Clearly , with any solder iron, the tip should be continuously connected to an earthed heater structure.
Do you confirm that the tips of magnastat are not earthed, indeed, cannot be realistically earthed?

The top post here seems to confirm that its not ESD safe.

Surely, such an "instrument of doom" should have like an ESD "skull & cross bones" on it, clearly visible.
A soldering iron without ESD safety is like a dishwasher that smashes the plates!

I mean, this is likely why the 8 VSSOPs i just soldered in are malfunctioning.

Again, the top of this (below)  says the WTCP-51 is not suitable for ESD operation as the "tip is not anti-static"...but surely the tip is earthed?
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1448594.pdf

[Ian.M]

Faringdon, you are a troll.  You are also so incompetent at basic research that you could not pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the sole!

If you believe the tip clicks or "flicks up" to and fro, alternately towards and away from the heater "magnastat style", then you have obviously never used a Weller Magnastat iron, nor been in close proximity to anyone using one for long.  The tip does not move in and out as it cycles round the temperature set by the Curie point slug, and if you had used one you would know that.  The moving parts are the magnet inside the hollow shaft containing the heater element, the wire pushrod bonded to the magnet and the switch contacts on the other end of the pushrod.  The magnet and pushrod oscillate up and down a small fraction of an inch inside the shaft as it cycles, with no externally visible movement.

Older TCP base stations did not ground the tip.  This was easy to resolve by fitting a three wire mains lead and plug, and running a ground to the dedicated wire in the iron cord that connects to the shaft/heater mounting flange and thus to the tip.   I suppose there may be one or two  Weller Magnastat irons still out there with two wire cords - if you have one of those, you'll need to replace it with a three wire cord as well, with a ring terminal at the handle end of the ground wire to fit under one of the mounting flange screws.

[Faringdon]

Hi,

it may be earthed, but still not suitbale for ESD operation ... because the ESD current is not limited.
So in case you use this tool to work on an ESD_charged_PCB there will be a spark with non limited current.

Suitable ESD tools should provide a minimum impedance to EARTH GND.
This means high ohmic to limit the current but still to dissipate the ESD energy, but also low capacitance to EARTH GND to avoid high capacitive peak currents.

[Ian.M]

Here's a low effort reply for a low effort troll!

Hi,

it may be earthed, but still not suitbale for ESD operation ... because the ESD current is not limited.
So in case you use this tool to work on an ESD_charged_PCB there will be a spark with non limited current.

Suitable ESD tools should provide a minimum impedance to EARTH GND.
This means high ohmic to limit the current but still to dissipate the ESD energy, but also low capacitance to EARTH GND to avoid high capacitive peak currents.

Are you telling us that NASA is wrong^* or that NASA doesn't care about ESD?   

* Ref: NASA-STD-8739.3, section 6.4.3 (page 30):

6.4 Tool and Equipment Control
...
   3. Power tools used during the soldering process shall comply to the tool requirements herein and have a three-wire grounded power cord. The area making contact with the workpiece shall be grounded. When measured from the workpiece contact point to ground, the resistance shall not exceed 2.0 ohms and the potential difference shall not exceed 2 millivolts root mean squared (RMS) using methods indicated in the supplier's engineering documentation.

[Faringdon]

Thanks, NASA says that a solder tip should be directly connected to earth ground?...with none of the typical 1MEG "ESD resistance"?

I control F'd your kindly supplied doc for "ESD", but didnt see where it says that?

Is there a 1MEG inside the tip?, from the workpiece point, to the tip?

[tggzzz]

Faringdon, you are a troll.  You are also so incompetent at basic research that you could not pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the sole!

When there are multiple similar failures, it is standard practice to note the factors to see if there is a common cause. That common factor can then be examined to see if it is the cause, and cured/removed/avoided as appropriate. For example:

faulty: Faringdon + Weller WTCP-51 + TCP-S

faulty: Faringdon + Weller WD1 + WP80

faulty: Faringdon + soldering joints with >10 year old flux

Conclusion(s) are left as an exercise for the student.

[Gyro]

Hi,
The magnastat temperature control system sounds terrible in terms of ESD.
I mean, the tip must be earthed  for ESD protectivity reasons.
But a tip that is loose when it "flicks up" away from the heater, "magnastat style",  cannot be earthed.
As such, I am surprised such a system exists.
Clearly , with any solder iron, the tip should be continuously connected to an earthed heater structure.
Do you confirm that the tips of magnastat are not earthed, indeed, cannot be realistically earthed?

The top post here seems to confirm that its not ESD safe.


Surely, such an "instrument of doom" should have like an ESD "skull & cross bones" on it, clearly visible.
A soldering iron without ESD safety is like a dishwasher that smashes the plates!

I mean, this is likely why the 8 VSSOPs i just soldered in are malfunctioning.

Again, the top of this (below)  says the WTCP-51 is not suitable for ESD operation as the "tip is not anti-static"...but surely the tip is earthed?
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1448594.pdf

I was always taught not to call somebody an idiot, but to say that they are behaving like an idiot. In your case, I will make an exception and add 'incompetent'.

Let's drill down to the core of your post, carefully positioned near the end... You have soldered down a bunch of VSSOP-8 packaged parts and they don't work. Most likely it is a problem with your design but other alternatives may be thermal or mechanical damage from your flux-free solder blob removal method ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/how-to-solder-8vssop/ , check the soldering constraints in the datasheet - normally 300'C for <10 seconds), or ESD handling damage - you are using a proper ESD strap and mat? or are you still kneeling on the floorboards after spraying them with water? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/spraying-wooden-floor-with-water-to-reduce-esd-damage/ ).

As far as the TCP-S. If you say the tip is loose, then you either haven't fitted heater barrel outer sleeve, you haven't tightened it up, or have over-tightened it to the point that the end has belled out and no longer grips the flange on the tip. I suppose it's also possible that you are trying to fit the wrong tips but I assume you tried the one it came with.

From the codes you 'indicated' in your first post, you have a WTCP-51 station, which includes P51 PSU and TCP-S iron, so anti-static. It will take you 2 minutes to check continuity back from the iron's tip to the mains plug earth pin. Please do this immediately and report back. If there is a break, it should be very easy to isolate this to a damaged cable or loose connector.


After you have done this I would seriously suggest that you sleep off whatever you have 'substance' you have imbibed or smoked and then complete a job application for Lidl. I think they are currently the highest paying supermarket in the UK, but also try Aldi and other supermarkets. In your case, I think it would be a mistake to try to go too 'high end'. I honestly think that contact with real people would help with your fantasies, and I sure the money would be helpful after the disappointing recent sale of your company ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/renewable-energy/intelligent-product-of-switch-mode-power-supplies/msg5551385/#msg5551385


EDIT: To confirm what others and NASA have said, the iron tip should be solidly grounded, this is standard practice for ALL ESD safe irons. There should be no potential difference between the soldering tip and parts in a properly controlled ESD environment. 1M resistors are used in wrist straps purely to avoid accidental electrocution risk if the operator touches live mains.

[tggzzz]

After you have done this I would seriously suggest that you sleep off whatever you have 'substance' you have imbibed or smoked and then ...

Regrettably I suspect that isn't the cause, and that there is something else going on here. Sad.

[Gyro]

Maybe so. Yes, sad.

I think he desperately needs to get out of this incomprehensible cycle (spiral?) and go find something else that he has an aptitude for. The fact that he started this thread at 5am suggests that it is not doing him any good.

[tggzzz]

Maybe so. Yes, sad.

I think he desperately needs to get out of this incomprehensible cycle (spiral?) and go find something else that he has an aptitude for. The fact that he started this thread at 5am suggests that it is not doing him any good.

Agreed. But I find the forum's timezones to be, um, confusing

[Gyro]

Yes sorry, I meant this morning's first post. I think my forum time adjustment is about right.

[stj]

obviously the guy never actually looked into a relativly modern - aka 1990's + weller base unit.
the earth connects through a paralel resistor and capacitor.
the resistor limits continuous current while the cap provides bypass for short spikes.

what the hell is an "ESD charged pcb" ?