EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: ez24 on September 08, 2016, 02:14:14 am
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What do you think of your EEVblog Brymen BM235 Multimeter ?
Edit: This is available through US Amazon
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It works fine on my bench. I have put away my Fluke 189 and a few others, the BM235 is the only one laying on the bench (small space). It's a very handy meter! Nice size, easy to handle, etc.
I don't like the fact that it doesn't come with alligator clips and I don't care for the knob arrangement where OFF isn't fully counter-clockwise. None of which makes an iota of difference.
I bought two to support the cause, gave one to my grandson, and if I need another meter, I'll buy a third.
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Nice to have a DMM with working capacitance, unlike my Extech. Need to do something with the buzzer as it gives me tinnitus and it's not like you can really turn it off. Otherwise I'm happy with it but haven't used anything other than DC, diode, cap, resistance.
The screw-on tips to go into banana binding posts are a nice touch, but it'd be nice if there was somewhere on the meter to put them when I need to take them off.
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got mine today from amazon. I like it. I have almost a dozen dmm's of various kinds, but had to have this one for its coolness factor and to help get dave's message out, so to speak. I'll probably leave this on my desk at work and people will notice it, maybe even ask about it.
the size is great. smaller than I expected, being used to flukes and some agilents.
digit size is nice and large. backlight works well. flashing backlight on continuity (have not read manual yet, maybe other reasons for flashing) is unique to me.
probes are great; better than most stock probes. I like the screw on low profile banana jacks. wish there was a storage hole of some kind to hold them and the plastic insulators for the tips.
I hear there may be a soft case made for this, coming later (I asked on amazon and dave directly answered; thanks, dave!). would be nice to have a choice of a low cost plastic case as well as a nicer leather version (stitching of dave's logo? would be super cool to have that, fwiw.)
like the blue soft grippy cover.
never had a brymen before. nice addition to my collection.
(is there a touch-hold feature? yeah, I need to read the fine manual...)
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I like mine, even with duty couldn't find a meter with as many features for the price. I even accidentally pulled it down to my cement floor pretty hard and it's still ticking, that rubber surround protects it pretty well. Over all pretty happy with it. :)
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The screw-on tips to go into banana binding posts are a nice touch, but it'd be nice if there was somewhere on the meter to put them when I need to take them off.
There is.
They fit nicely into the probe holder cutouts on the back.
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would it add much more to the price to include a few spare banana tips? they seem nice, but I can see myself losing at least one.
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I'm interested to know if anyone wishes they had a bar graph, or whether the high update rate is good enough. Trying to decide between 235 and 257s. The former has a few desirable features (accuracy, backlight flashing continuity, cool blue rubber :P) but the latter has the bar graph and PC comms.
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I'm interested to know if anyone wishes they had a bar graph, or whether the high update rate is good enough. Trying to decide between 235 and 257s. The former has a few desirable features (accuracy, backlight flashing continuity, cool blue rubber :P) but the latter has the bar graph and PC comms.
BM235 has better EMF detection (multiple ranges) and AVG mode.
BM257 has crest.
BM235 is cheaper.
It's a bit of a coin toss.
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would it add much more to the price to include a few spare banana tips? they seem nice, but I can see myself losing at least one.
Murphy will ensure you lose them all!
I have mine attached on the back in the probe holders, they haven't fallen out yet.
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I'm a newb so take it with a grain of salt. But I like it, everything good that I thought has been said already. The blinking continuity is nice, i would prefer maybe a faster frequency on the flashes but its nice either way.
This may be a stupid question.. but for what purpose would I want banana plugs on the end of my probes? I've never had that on my cheaper meters, and can't think of a use for that feature -- except maybe probe tips attaching to it?
Also does anyone know if https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VRFKPW/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=rossmanngroup-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B000VRFKPW&linkId=e6a7d3405038f673acc26eca8758dc10 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VRFKPW/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=rossmanngroup-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=B000VRFKPW&linkId=e6a7d3405038f673acc26eca8758dc10) tips would fit on this meter?
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at first, I was thinking about plugging the probes directly into the banana jacks of a power supply, etc - but then thought about the good old (often ignored) idea of 'strain relief'.
so, what I would do is use banana male-male cables (that also have a sideways hole, sometimes a stacking hole, too) for the male dmm plug. plug the other end of the cable into your power supply or other signal source.
might even be nice to have some 2" stubby male-female banana cables so that you are not tempted to plug the probes directly to jacks. the weight of the probe handles would not be good to have hanging from a chassis mount banana jack.
thinking about it, I prefer these banana jacklets (new term? lol) to alligator clips. the clips often are too big or don't hold well and they look better than they are in real life. these jacks, otoh, will probably end up being far more useful.
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The screw on banana adapters are great for use with "Minigrabber" or alligator probe ends. I recently dug up some Pomona insulated alligator clips that I added to the case that I carry my BM235 in.
I am eagerly awaiting Dave's next meter with Bluetooth, if it is similar in size I might need to carry it my daily bag in case data acquisition is needed.
Jon
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IMO how robust it is and how that fits alongside other DMM's is of great importance.
In short it is very good according to Joe:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093)
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I like it. It's a perfectly sound multimeter which replaced my 1991 vintage Fluke 77 which died mysteriously.
I'll get another one when I can get it here without a bill from Her Majesty's Robbing Canutes.
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Trying to decide between 235 and 257s. The former has a few desirable features (accuracy, backlight flashing continuity, cool blue rubber :P) but the latter has the bar graph and PC comms.
Could you elaborate on your statement that the 257 is less accurate than the 235? I remember putting the specs side by side and don't recall that conclusion. I'm not at my PC right now, but I only remember the 235 performing somewhat better on capacity and resistance, but for current and voltage the 257 was more accurate (unless my memory is becoming inaccurate which at my age is not uncommon :palm:)
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Considering all the extra features and the fact that the 257s is only 20 bucks more, I'd definitely go for the 257. Also, the 257 doesn't have a noisy backlight 8)
Edit: after carefully comparing the datasheets, it's not so clear cut. 235 has better diode check (3V). 257 only has a puny 1V, which is a big downside. 257 has the bargraph, which can be super useful. 257 also has the peak min/max, which again is very useful. 235 Hz only goes up to 50kHz, while 257 has logic level Hz which goes to 1MHz.
Personally, I'd say screw it and just go for the 869s, which is only a little more than double the price of the 257s. But then you're also almost in the price range of a used Fluke 87 V, so I'd just get that :-DMM
I like it. It's a perfectly sound multimeter which replaced my 1991 vintage Fluke 77 which died mysteriously.
Died how? The only problem I had with my 77 was cracked solder joints at the jacks, which were easily fixed by reflowing the solder.
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Considering all the extra features and the fact that the 257s is only 20 bucks more, I'd definitely go for the 257. Also, the 257 doesn't have a noisy backlight 8)
Edit: after carefully comparing the datasheets, it's not so clear cut. 235 has better diode check (3V). 257 only has a puny 1V, which is a big downside. 257 has the bargraph, which can be super useful. 257 also has the peak min/max, which again is very useful. 235 Hz only goes up to 50kHz, while 257 has logic level Hz which goes to 1MHz.
Personally, I'd say screw it and just go for the 869s, which is only a little more than double the price of the 257s. But then you're also almost in the price range of a used Fluke 87 V, so I'd just get that :-DMM
I was with you until the antique 87V with it's weak front end.
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I was with you until the antique 87V with it's weak front end.
Jeez man, what's with the hate? Did John Fluke steal your girlfriend in high school?
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It's just data. The 87V performed very poor during my tests. I call it an antique because it is a very old meter compared with many that I look at. All of the Asian made Flukes I have looked at including the 101, 107, 115 and 17B+ did very well. I suspect that Fluke has improved their designs is all and the 87V is just a thing of the past. Don't take it personal.
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I think I watched the test you're referring to. OK, so you set it to ohms and connected it to 1.5kV. That's just user error. I'm not gonna do that, ever. I always make sure the meter is in the right mode and I don't switch the dial while it's connected to something. But if I did, it's good to know that it still failed in a safe manner. Maybe it was designed this way on purpose, so it would be returned to Fluke's service department to make sure it's still safe to use? An overload might damage a meter in all kinds of ways. A meter that survives an overload acting normally but in a weakened state may fail catastrophically later on. I don't think you can fault the 87 V. In a crash test, the criterion is how the passengers look after the crash, not how the car looks.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by antiquated. The 87 V has all the important features. It has great ergonomics. It has great battery life. IMHO it is the best general purpose meter available. It has an excellent balance of features (all useful, no useless stuff). The BM869s's dial is cluttered with functions that belong on specialized meters, like the 4-20mA function.
I've considered buying the BM869s. But it has some quirks. Like the BM869s's backlight turns off after 32s. The 87 V's stays on until you turn it off. Or the weird cutting off of the last digit, instead of doing proper rounding. Or the useless hold function, vs. the excellent touch hold that the Fluke has. Or the slow peak min max vs. the really fast peak min/max of the 87 V. Or the remembering of the dial function (that's not a good thing).
I may get it eventually, but something like the Fluke 89 IV/189 is higher on my list.
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I'm interested to know if anyone wishes they had a bar graph, or whether the high update rate is good enough. Trying to decide between 235 and 257s. The former has a few desirable features (accuracy, backlight flashing continuity, cool blue rubber :P) but the latter has the bar graph and PC comms.
BM235 has better EMF detection (multiple ranges) and AVG mode.
BM257 has crest.
BM235 is cheaper.
Dave is there any chance a bar graph version of the 235 is in the works / pipeline?
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Considering all the extra features and the fact that the 257s is only 20 bucks more, I'd definitely go for the 257. Also, the 257 doesn't have a noisy backlight 8)
Neither has any BM235 sold from the last several shipments.
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Dave is there any chance a bar graph version of the 235 is in the works / pipeline?
Nope.
They left the BM257 on the market for a reason.
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I think I watched the test you're referring to. OK, so you set it to ohms and connected it to 1.5kV. That's just user error. I'm not gonna do that, ever. I always make sure the meter is in the right mode and I don't switch the dial while it's connected to something. But if I did, it's good to know that it still failed in a safe manner.
:-DD :-DD :-DD
At sub 20 Joules, ever meter I test that failed better fail in a safe manner!!! The 87V sadly just failed at very low levels compared with every other Fluke I looked at.
Maybe it was designed this way on purpose, so it would be returned to Fluke's service department to make sure it's still safe to use?
I doubt very many products in general are designed by accident. As to why the 87V fails at such low levels compared with the newer Flukes I looked at, I can't answer beyond what I already stated with it being an earlier design and maybe they changed their requirements. You could be right that they had too many field failures and were trying to save money by making more robust products.
An overload might damage a meter in all kinds of ways. A meter that survives an overload acting normally but in a weakened state may fail catastrophically later on. I don't think you can fault the 87 V.
It is true that I have seen meters fail "in all kinds of ways" during these tests. I doubt many people are ever going to know if their meter was subjected to a transient or not (unless it fails). You are right that if the product is so sensitive that it normally fails, this could be considered a sort of feature. Again, I really don't care about how the testing goes one way or the other. I run them, collect the data and make it available for free to the public. I'm not paid in any way to run them, nor are the meters being provided free of charge (except where 5KY and a few friends donated a few). I am also not affiliated with any distributors or OEMs.
In a crash test, the criterion is how the passengers look after the crash, not how the car looks.
It's a hand held meter, not a car. The testing is very different between the two along with the requirements. That said, if you want look at it from a car crash test sort of perspective, my testing would be like driving a car at walking speed into a rubber wall. Again, to be clear my testing has nothing to do with safety.
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Considering all the extra features and the fact that the 257s is only 20 bucks more, I'd definitely go for the 257. Also, the 257 doesn't have a noisy backlight 8)
Neither has any BM235 sold from the last several shipments.
The only thing I saw on the one I received was the common input connector not sitting flat on the PCB, the cut out area for clearance, and the hand soldered ferrites. The meter was well crafted. It outperform the Fluke 87V, Fluke 17B+, Keysight U1231A and the Hioki DT4252 during my transient tests. These are name brands with big reputations. The fact that Brymen meets the EMC standards as well as the safety standards and that they are independently certified, it's obvious they are not in the same low end class as most of the products I have looked at.
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Just ordered mine from the eBay store, looking forward to its arrival!
I'm sure it will greatly surpass by $30 Jaycar multi-meter and it's a nice touch to have Dave's logo on it!
;D
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Just ordered mine from the eBay store, looking forward to its arrival!
I get a kick out of people buying from Amazon to sell on ebay :-DD :-DD :-DD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ)
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I get a kick out of people buying from Amazon to sell on ebay :-DD :-DD :-DD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ)
LOL! Good luck to them. Although they have stolen my images. Maybe I should stop that?
I sell it cheaper:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn)
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Just ordered mine from the eBay store, looking forward to its arrival!
I get a kick out of people buying from Amazon to sell on ebay :-DD :-DD :-DD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ)
This can end badly for Dave (but probably not in this specific case). NPR did an article about this the other day.
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/16/494199339/why-middlemen-are-taking-over-the-global-economy (http://www.npr.org/2016/09/16/494199339/why-middlemen-are-taking-over-the-global-economy)
In the above case the ebay sellers would effectively drop ship from the Amazon store. That was fine until the buyers realized it was cheaper on Amazon. They would return the item to the ebay seller who would have it returned directly to Amazon. Now the Amazon seller takes a "return" hit and has to deal with returned merchandise. The ebay seller is effectively out nothing so they don't care that their operating expense was effectively passed on to the Amazon seller.
And another one:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622 (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622)
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And another one:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622 (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622)
That's a great article.
I looked at reporting the listing based on copyright of the photos, but it wanted me shunt me over to some other section because it's a trademark issue?
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NPR did an article about this the other day.
http://www.npr.org/2016/09/16/494199339/why-middlemen-are-taking-over-the-global-economy (http://www.npr.org/2016/09/16/494199339/why-middlemen-are-taking-over-the-global-economy)
Holy crap - I would never have guessed the things were coming direct from Amazon and there is software taking products from Amazon and listing them on ebay. And the original sellers getting screwed. Oh dear
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And another one:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622 (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622)
Great, now I want a Ripple Rug for my cat.
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Great, now I want a Ripple Rug for my cat.
Sorry Dave but we are talking about ebay vs Amazon and in this case $1 difference - ebay is cheaper
http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Ripple-Rug-2-0-USA-ALL-OTHER-EBAY-SELLERS-ARE-FAKE-We-are-Manufacturer-/122019978159?hash=item1c68f51baf:g:Qi4AAOSw3YNXZd8U (http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Ripple-Rug-2-0-USA-ALL-OTHER-EBAY-SELLERS-ARE-FAKE-We-are-Manufacturer-/122019978159?hash=item1c68f51baf:g:Qi4AAOSw3YNXZd8U)
https://www.amazon.com/SnugglyCat-Activity-Interactive-Scratching-Multi-Use/dp/B016H3T8EC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479197854&sr=8-1&keywords=Ripple+Rug (https://www.amazon.com/SnugglyCat-Activity-Interactive-Scratching-Multi-Use/dp/B016H3T8EC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479197854&sr=8-1&keywords=Ripple+Rug)
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And another one:
https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622 (https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/278622)
That's a great article.
I looked at reporting the listing based on copyright of the photos, but it wanted me shunt me over to some other section because it's a trademark issue?
I liked this response to the resellers....
He finds other anti-arbitrage sellers and swaps strategies. One of those people, Eric Wildermuth, who sells a line of children’s hats called Snuggleheads, came up with a particularly sneaky punishment: He bought his own hat from an eBay arbitrager for $27 -- and then, before the arbitrager could go to Amazon and make the purchase, Wildermuth changed his Amazon listing price to $199. Result: The arbitrager could either lose $172 on the sale or cancel the purchase, which would damage the arbitrager’s eBay ranking. Wildermuth repeated this about 10 times. “I got these frantic calls [from the arbitrager]. He said, ‘Please don’t do this,’” says Wildermuth. “He knew what I was doing. And I let out a string of expletives.”
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I get a kick out of people buying from Amazon to sell on ebay :-DD :-DD :-DD
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-Multi-Testers-NEW-LOT-SET-/322323635079?hash=item4b0bfc5b87:g:TMAAAOSwo4pYI8CQ)
LOL! Good luck to them. Although they have stolen my images. Maybe I should stop that?
I sell it cheaper:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn)
I didn't buy it from a reseller.....well at least I didn't think I did.
The one I purchased was from the official EEVBlog eBay store 8)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn)
If it's not from Dave it will be getting sent back and I will be purchasing one from him!!!
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The one I purchased was from the official EEVBlog eBay store 8)
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/222311345017?hash=item33c2c9eb79:g:5N8AAOSwcl1XPaWn)
You got the real deal
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I hae 2 of them.
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I liked this response to the resellers....
He finds other anti-arbitrage sellers and swaps strategies. One of those people, Eric Wildermuth, who sells a line of children’s hats called Snuggleheads, came up with a particularly sneaky punishment: He bought his own hat from an eBay arbitrager for $27 -- and then, before the arbitrager could go to Amazon and make the purchase, Wildermuth changed his Amazon listing price to $199. Result: The arbitrager could either lose $172 on the sale or cancel the purchase, which would damage the arbitrager’s eBay ranking. Wildermuth repeated this about 10 times. “I got these frantic calls [from the arbitrager]. He said, ‘Please don’t do this,’” says Wildermuth. “He knew what I was doing. And I let out a string of expletives.”
I like that! :clap:
Seems like the listing is gone now?
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Seems like the listing is gone now?
Still there
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/322304598393?hash=item4b0ad9e179:g:kIkAAOSwo4pYDfw9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/322304598393?hash=item4b0ad9e179:g:kIkAAOSwo4pYDfw9)
this seller has over 31,000 items for sale - this is the cheapest
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fun-with-Leaves-Stencils-Dover-Stencils-/322287906698?hash=item4b09db2f8a:g:zwoAAOSwLF1X-i0F (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fun-with-Leaves-Stencils-Dover-Stencils-/322287906698?hash=item4b09db2f8a:g:zwoAAOSwLF1X-i0F)
and from Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Leaves-Stencils-Dover/dp/048626808X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479492851&sr=8-1&keywords=Fun+with+Leaves+Stencils+Dover+Stencils (https://www.amazon.com/Fun-Leaves-Stencils-Dover/dp/048626808X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1479492851&sr=8-1&keywords=Fun+with+Leaves+Stencils+Dover+Stencils)
Dave don't you have an ebook? You could put that on Amazon and when it gets to ebay pull off that price increase trick.
It is hard to kill rats.
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Seems like the listing is gone now?
Still there
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/322304598393?hash=item4b0ad9e179:g:kIkAAOSwo4pYDfw9 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/EEVblog-Brymen-BM235-Multimeter-/322304598393?hash=item4b0ad9e179:g:kIkAAOSwo4pYDfw9)
But then directly below the top portion of this person’s eBay page, there is a row of icon pics titled:
“People who viewed this item also viewed”
Dave’s EEVblog BM235 site with a pic of the BM235 is the 1st in the row (reading left to right) and lists a price, which is lower than that of the perpetrator’s BM235. So, if anyone is paying attention, this should be an easy choice.
I couldn't find a listing as to the amount of BM235's this person has sold.
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I looked at reporting the listing based on copyright of the photos, but it wanted me shunt me over to some other section because it's a trademark issue?
Odd. Under USA law use of your photo without your permission is a copyright issue, whereas use of your logo or trade name without your permission would be a trademark issue.
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It used to be that ebay actually cared about sellers so using someone else's pictures in your auction was highly frowned upon and it wasn't difficult to make the offender remove their listing.
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I currently don't own his meter but I intend to get one directly from Dave.
This is a really good meter and the price tag is just right.
Here's why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3uYcHAumhA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3uYcHAumhA)
( A comprehensive teardown and stress / performance test and comparison of BM235 multimeter vs other known brands done by Joe Smith )
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I currently don't own his meter but I intend to get one directly from Dave.
This is a really good meter and the price tag is just right.
Here's why:
URL
( A comprehensive teardown and stress / performance test and comparison of BM235 multimeter vs other known brands done by Joe Smith )
Welcome to the forum.
You're quite right, it seems a good DMM. That vid of Joes was posted in this thread back in September.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093)
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Welcome to the forum.
Thanks a lot! :-)
You're quite right, it seems a good DMM. That vid of Joes was posted in this thread back in September.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hear-kitty-kitty-kitty-nope-not-that-kind-of-cat/msg1030093/#msg1030093)
I missed that one. This forum is flooded with good information. As a new member I have not yet had the time to scan through everything.
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For me one of the better features is the small size of the 235 overall but a good sized screen. When I am using a multimeter usually stuff is everywhere, my desk isn't big so compact size is a plus for me.
Ticks a lot of the boxes re price, reasonable safety, accuracy etc.
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For me one of the better features is the small size of the 235 overall but a good sized screen. When I am using a multimeter usually stuff is everywhere, my desk isn't big so compact size is a plus for me.
Ticks a lot of the boxes re price, reasonable safety, accuracy etc.
I agree, my old meter is much larger and the smaller footprint is very welcome. Plus it's blue and helps keep Dave in business making more awesome videos for us.
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I just the other day noticed the BM235 has a better diode test function than the BM869s as the BM235 will display a Vf > 2.0 V for white LEDs where the BM869s just shows OL. (But oddly, the BM869 makes the diode light up and presumably has a value for Vf internally, it just is not prepared to display it. This seems like an odd shortcoming in a modern meter, given how common white LEDs are.)
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I currently don't own his meter but I intend to get one directly from Dave.
This is a really good meter and the price tag is just right.
Here's why:
( A comprehensive teardown and stress / performance test and comparison of BM235 multimeter vs other known brands done by Joe Smith )
Glad it helped.
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I would like to use Lithium batteries to avoid the leakage risk with Alkaline batteries. The manual says:
Batteries:
1.5V AAA Size battery x 2
240 hours continuous on Alkaline
NOTE: Lithium AAA's may need to be drained a small amount before use to drop the initial terminal voltage.
As you know, Lithium cells tend to have excessive initial voltage (for some reason I never understood, maybe to extend shelf life?). I just made these OCV measurements on brand new AAA cells:
Alkaline AAA 1.60V
Lithium AAA 1.84V
Should I discharge the Lithium to match the Alkaline at 1.6VDC? I feel like I'm throwing away $$$ by draining it, but I want the DMM to receive power within spec. If the DMM works with 10% tolerance, then I could drain it to 1.65V.
What shall I do?
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What shall I do?
Try the Batteri... uh, no nevermind. :-DD
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I would like to use Lithium batteries to avoid the leakage risk with Alkaline batteries. The manual says:
Batteries:
1.5V AAA Size battery x 2
240 hours continuous on Alkaline
NOTE: Lithium AAA's may need to be drained a small amount before use to drop the initial terminal voltage.
As you know, Lithium cells tend to have excessive initial voltage (for some reason I never understood, maybe to extend shelf life?).
This is not something within the ability of the cell manufacturer to control. The cell voltage is a fixed property of the cell chemistry, a function of the anode, cathode and electrolyte choices. They did pretty well to get the voltage as low as 1.8 V. As you know, many types of lithium cell are over 3 V.
I just made these OCV measurements on brand new AAA cells:
Alkaline AAA 1.60V
Lithium AAA 1.84V
Should I discharge the Lithium to match the Alkaline at 1.6VDC? I feel like I'm throwing away $$$ by draining it, but I want the DMM to receive power within spec. If the DMM works with 10% tolerance, then I could drain it to 1.65V.
What shall I do?
I tried lithium AAA's in the BM235 and found that, sadly, it does not operate properly. The circuitry detects an over voltage condition and goes into an error state.
Rather than trying to drain the lithiums down to a lower voltage I would suggest using rechargeable Eneloops instead. These seem to work fine.
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It'd be interesting to know the exact voltage threshold the 235 throws up a battery overvoltage warning, then maybe a series diode could be inserted to drop the voltage some but still use and have the superior capacity of Lithium cells.
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It'd be interesting to know the exact voltage threshold the 235 throws up a battery overvoltage warning, then maybe a series diode could be inserted to drop the voltage some but still use and have the superior capacity of Lithium cells.
I'll have to test this.
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Just remembered I asked Brymen about this way back:
I was talking to engineer and was advised that BM235 battery voltage can not be more than 3.5V out of its current design. The reasons are:
1. Input warning detection uses a comparator inside main chip. While A or mA/uA input terminal is without being plugged-in by test lead, the compared signals are from battery voltage and from a fixed voltage around 3.6V. If battery voltage is more than 3.5V, that comparator may misjudge and display “InEr”.
2. The maximum working voltage of BM235 main chip can be only 3.6V.
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Just remembered I asked Brymen about this way back:
Brymen are bloody awesome aren't they? Some office dude actually went and asked someone what AND why. And they took the time to pass that on as well. I have only the best things to say about them.
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Just remembered I asked Brymen about this way back:
Brymen are bloody awesome aren't they? Some office dude actually went and asked someone what AND why. And they took the time to pass that on as well. I have only the best things to say about them.
Same
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Funny mine is black and blue all over!... it must have taken a beating during the canoe ride across the pacific..
I use it all the time. It is my go to meter. Light weight, rugged and just the right size. All the little numbers say exactly what they are supposed to...
I am very pleased with the purchase.
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Just remembered I asked Brymen about this way back:
Brymen are bloody awesome aren't they? Some office dude actually went and asked someone what AND why. And they took the time to pass that on as well. I have only the best things to say about them.
Yep, they always come back with an answer to any technical question in record time. It's a small company I believe, so yeah, probably just leaning over the cubicle to the design engineer.
They don't seem to have any red tape at all which is great.
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Just remembered I asked Brymen about this way back:
I was talking to engineer and was advised that BM235 battery voltage can not be more than 3.5V out of its current design. The reasons are:
1. Input warning detection uses a comparator inside main chip. While A or mA/uA input terminal is without being plugged-in by test lead, the compared signals are from battery voltage and from a fixed voltage around 3.6V. If battery voltage is more than 3.5V, that comparator may misjudge and display “InEr”.
2. The maximum working voltage of BM235 main chip can be only 3.6V.
Very good. In that case, my math skills tell me that if each AAA cell is lower than 1.75V it should operate fine.
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It'd be interesting to know the exact voltage threshold the 235 throws up a battery overvoltage warning, then maybe a series diode could be inserted to drop the voltage some but still use and have the superior capacity of Lithium cells.
I'll have to test this.
If you can get away with a Schottky instead of a silicon diode then even a bit more Lithium cell capacity may be available.
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I recently received my unit from Dave, and I like it! Rugged and accurate bit of kit with documentation. I won't review it here because I hardly have the knowledge/equipment to do a review that adds anything to the remarks already made. Three things stood out to me though:
- When a small change occurs, the meter takes a long time to get a final reading. I found this while testing a power supply kit I had built for which I used a Spectrol 10-turn pot. When turning it quickly (jump of about 1V), the value takes 1 or 2 display updates to show. When tweaking the voltage by nudging the knob (change of 10s of mVs), it takes several seconds to get the proper reading. I initially thought it was a delay caused by capacitance in the power supply, but other meters show the value changing instantly. Something similar happened when joeqsmith upon checking high value resistances and low value capacitors. He shows it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=528&v=g3uYcHAumhA) (from the 8:48 mark). In resistance or capacitance mode it doesn't really matter to me, but in voltage mode it is actually quite annoying, especially when you want to set an accurate voltage. It seems there is some kind of digital noise filtering takes place inside of the unit. I have no idea if that can be switched off/enforced.
- The low impedance mode does not do anything under 8V. I had assumed it would have a resistor in parallel with the measument probes and switch it out of circuit according to the voltage causing a roughly similar drain at every voltage range. It is mentioned in the manual it does not work under 8V, but it is quite annoying because it beeps every time some small voltage is present (for example by touching the probes), implying something is happening while in fact no low-impedance source is present. It seems to be only usable to detect whether if no AC mains is present rather than filter out high impedance voltage sources, but discharging a small capacitor (to under 8V) is not an option. It seems to be usable for rough electrical work only.
- One minor thing which was not obvious to me before: it is brown-ish rather than grey. Very minor thing, but somehow I only noticed it when I received it. I had never seen it on the pictures or video clips. I may want to have my monitor calibrated, because it seems like my cheap-ass monitor is not completely accurate. :-DD
I only consider the slow updating of small changes actually annoying because none of my other meters seem to do it, but mentioned the other points for those interested. Maybe there is a filter I can turn off to make it update faster (at the cost of jitter maybe), but I could not find it in the manual (http://www.eevblog.com/files/BM235-Manual-EEVblog.pdf).
Regards,
Crumble
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It is very interesting, no one mentioned it before (IIRC)...
What are your other meters you spoke about, if I may ask?
I hope that behaviour can be switched off, or maybe small firmware update would help?
Can someone please try that on higher Brymen meters, especially on BM867(869) - thanks!
I only consider the slow updating of small changes actually annoying because none of my other meters seem to do it, but mentioned the other points for those interested. Maybe there is a filter I can turn off to make it update faster (at the cost of jitter maybe), but I could not find it in the manual (http://www.eevblog.com/files/BM235-Manual-EEVblog.pdf).
Regards,
Crumble
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No, that's the reason I brought it up. And yes, you may know my other meters ;). I compared it to a Gossen Metrawatt Metra Hit One, a Duro AL205 and an old Uni-T M840D I had for years. None seem to rely on big jumps to show the final value quickly. Also, when I look at the update rate on the sceen when you are monitoring a slowly changing signal it looks like the screen updates are irregular. It looks like there are about 5 updates per second as specified, but they all seem to occur in the first half of the second, reducing the usefulness of this update rate. Don't know if this behaviour is as intended. ???
edit: joeqsmith tested a 150pF capacitor which took a long time to settle, but in this clip (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=7970&v=5cwjjXoo0kM) (2:12:50) a 220pF capacitor read instantly. It looks like the behaviour changes between 150pF and 220pF.
edit2: I dug up a 100pF and a 220pF cap, and found this behaviour to be reproducable with my unit.
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I just did a few tests on my unit. It seems there may be some kind of adaptive filtering happening. If I probe a solid value the display updates instantly to the expected measurement. However, if I do a bit of scratching with the probes so that the meter may think the measurement is "noisy", then it looks like some extra filtering cuts in to filter out the noise. In that case it takes the meter a few seconds to settle down on the final value.
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It is very interesting, no one mentioned it before (IIRC)...
What are your other meters you spoke about, if I may ask?
I hope that behaviour can be switched off, or maybe small firmware update would help?
Can someone please try that on higher Brymen meters, especially on BM867(869) - thanks!
I only consider the slow updating of small changes actually annoying because none of my other meters seem to do it, but mentioned the other points for those interested. Maybe there is a filter I can turn off to make it update faster (at the cost of jitter maybe), but I could not find it in the manual (http://www.eevblog.com/files/BM235-Manual-EEVblog.pdf).
Regards,
Crumble
The BM235 is NOT firmware updatable. One of the few negatives. Otherwise, I've been very pleased with its performance.
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I don't want to waste too much time on this without having more data about exactly what you were doing. Here is mine along with a few other meters (including the BM869s) showing various level changes and settling times. You may have stumbled onto a problem but we would need more details.
Removed video, see post below
I recently received my unit from Dave, and I like it! Rugged and accurate bit of kit with documentation. I won't review it here because I hardly have the knowledge/equipment to do a review that adds anything to the remarks already made. Three things stood out to me though:
- When a small change occurs, the meter takes a long time to get a final reading. I found this while testing a power supply kit I had built for which I used a Spectrol 10-turn pot. When turning it quickly (jump of about 1V), the value takes 1 or 2 display updates to show. When tweaking the voltage by nudging the knob (change of 10s of mVs), it takes several seconds to get the proper reading. I initially thought it was a delay caused by capacitance in the power supply, but other meters show the value changing instantly. Something similar happened when joeqsmith upon checking high value resistances and low value capacitors. He shows it here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=528&v=g3uYcHAumhA) (from the 8:48 mark). In resistance or capacitance mode it doesn't really matter to me, but in voltage mode it is actually quite annoying, especially when you want to set an accurate voltage. It seems there is some kind of digital noise filtering takes place inside of the unit. I have no idea if that can be switched off/enforced.
...
Regards,
Crumble
[/list]
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I don't want to waste too much time on this without having more data about exactly what you were doing. Here is mine along with a few other meters (including the BM869s) showing various level changes and settling times. You may have stumbled onto a problem but we would need more details.
In your test you were switching cleanly between two solid and stable voltages. However, try "confusing" the meter by making the voltage wobble in a more or less random way in between measurements. In my test this seemed to activate some kind of low pass filter on the BM235 causing a much longer settling time. The same thing did not happen on the BM869s.
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Now you know very well there is no such thing as a clean switch between levels. :-DD
Does it matter what levels you ran at and how much you deviated by? Any idea on the ramp rate? I should be able to change the rise and fall times to replicate it.
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OK, the way I tested it was by touching meter probes to battery terminals by hand. To make a "noisy" signal I simply scratched and tapped the probe on the terminal to make the meter reading jump all over the place. After doing this for a second or two I then touched the probe firmly to get a clean measurement. This is where I saw a longer settling time.
If I simply touched the probe to a terminal in one clean motion the display settled almost instantly.
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Interesting. I will try something a little more controlled and see if we can determine what conditions put it into this long settling time.
If when you notice it is in the settling mode and you move it quickly off the battery post and back on, does it then settle quickly?
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If I slow down the edge rates enough I can not only get the BM235 to exhibit the long settling times, so does the BM869s. Interesting enough, I have not been able to cause it with my UT181A or the TIP194II. Something unique to Brymen's code base? Maybe Dave has enough pull to get an answer to this one.
As I shorten the times, the meters are less prone to enter the long settling time mode.
I pulled the first video and added a section to the end of it and reposted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O4auxR1hsA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O4auxR1hsA&feature=youtu.be)
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Wow, thank you Mr Smith for your prompt and detailed reply! I must excuse myself for not having providing a more detailed report, but sadly I lack the proper equipment here, so I turned out just tweaking an analog pot, making it difficult to quantify the issue. :-/O Turns out that for tweaking circuits the BM235 (or BM869s) might not be ideal, because they settle slowly after tweaking with a slow ramp-up. Not a major issue, but useful to know about it when using it in analog circuits because it consequently seems to lag behind in the value on the screen when faced with slowly ramping signals.
I guess their AD converter switches in some kind of averaging when it detects little change in value, maybe to increase accuracy when doing so. I just happened to stumble across it building this power supply kit. These 10-turn potentiometers allow setting it within a few mV with a 19,5V range, but this issue will likely not be noticable with a single turn unit or a more "scratchy" unit. I guess using a digitally controlled power supply will not lead to similar problems because of the steps. I guess the capacitor measurement also takes place with a circuit that ramps slowly when applying a small capacitor.
Nonetheless I still love my little Brymen, and might purchase more in the future. This is just something one needs to know, maybe this can be included in the manual in the future? I am curious what kind of system they use that causes this though.
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No problem. Glad to provide what little information I can. It appears another person had posted about it some time ago. Fan boys down voting? Strange. Seems easy enough to reproduce. I'm surprised the battery noise test gets it into this mode as well. It's a strange problem.
I can see your point about using the meter to made fine adjusting and having it get into this mode and then having to wait for it to settle. So far it has not bit me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYinhq59tWI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYinhq59tWI)
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I did write Brymen about the long settling times and provided them a link to the video. Here is their response:
Hi Joe,
BM235 & BM869s firmware are with following reading smooth designs.
BM869s
After getting NEW measuring reading, check “NEW reading” and “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) > 8 counts, then display “NEW reading” directly.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) <= 8 counts, then display “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings” instead.
BM235
After getting NEW measuring reading, check “NEW reading” and “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”) > 16 counts, then display “NEW reading” directly.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”) <= 16 counts, then display “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings” instead.
They are the causes.
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Interesting. I suspect they are trying to avoid "flickering" of the last digit if there is noise on the signal. The averaging approach will presumably give a more precise reading in such cases.
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That's indeed interesting, I am sincerely surprised they actually pulled some code out of their database and provided it. :o It does mean a 150pF capacitor is actually a worst case scenario to test on a BM235 (but this averaging might be deactivated in capacitance mode). I guessed there would be a switch at about 20LSBs given the 220pF was quick while the 150pF was not, but this is the first time I hear a manufacturer provide such an detailed characterisation of such a behaviour. I applaud them for that! :clap: :-+
It does mean the BM235 takes 3,2s to settle after a small change (16 updates @ 0,2s/ud) and will trigger "fast mode" at 80counts/s. The 869s has the same update rate, so will apparently settle in 1,6s in normal mode (don't know if the same figure counts for hi-res mode) and will trigger at 40counts/s. Please note the 869s should be faster in responding to changes because it has higher resolution, so its 40counts/s will be equivalent to 4counts/s for a BM235 in most modes.
Thanks for checking that with the manufacturer, this is very interesting.
PS Averaging does not make the result more precise unless the meter has internal noise/jitter needing averaging, but it does not seem to be any more precise with averaging. It does help agains digit flickering, which is quite desirable and I don't mind the presence of the functionality. I like the values chosen for the 869s better though, and I'd have chosen the values for the 235 lower rather than higher to compensate for the lower resolution. Right now the 235 is powerless agains a multi-turn trimmer. :-\
PS2 [nerd mode] I reread the "code", but it is not completely accurate. It obviously resets the average counter too after renewing the display value, else the value would jump to the correct one, but jump back when the average is back within 16 counts, this does not appear to happen.[/nerd mode]
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Please read the following from Brymen:
Hi Joe,
I had two wrong info. Please see red corrections below.
Best Regards,
BM869s
After getting NEW measuring reading, check “NEW reading” and “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) > 16 counts, then display “NEW reading” directly.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) <= 16 counts, then display “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings” instead.
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I did write Brymen about the long settling times and provided them a link to the video. Here is their response:
Hi Joe,
BM235 & BM869s firmware are with following reading smooth designs.
BM869s
After getting NEW measuring reading, check “NEW reading” and “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) > 8 counts, then display “NEW reading” directly.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings”) <= 8 counts, then display “the AVERAGE of the last 8 readings” instead.
BM235
After getting NEW measuring reading, check “NEW reading” and “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”) > 16 counts, then display “NEW reading” directly.
If ABS ( “NEW reading” - “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings”) <= 16 counts, then display “the AVERAGE of the last 16 readings” instead.
They are the causes.
Cool, I've added that detail to the manual.
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Dave, if you decide to add the data for the BM869s as a reference, please make sure you use their corrections.
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Why do they even make meters that require shitty rubbish penlight batteries? They leak often, where as that's usually not the case with 9 volt batteries...
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Why do they even make meters that require shitty rubbish penlight batteries? They leak often, where as that's usually not the case with 9 volt batteries...
Good question, I must admit I've found a number of leaking Duracell batteries lately in low power long life devices. It's quite concerning considering up till 6 months ago I'd never had issues with them.
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Why do they even make meters that require shitty rubbish penlight batteries? They leak often, where as that's usually not the case with 9 volt batteries...
Good question, I must admit I've found a number of leaking Duracell batteries lately in low power long life devices. It's quite concerning considering up till 6 months ago I'd never had issues with them.
This seems to be a recent quality issue with Duracell batteries. I always regarded Duracell very highly, but their quality seems to have eroded. There is a video of bigclivedotcom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=189&v=-I4liMndTsI) showing 1) cheap alkalines outlasting them and 2) one of the types providing very inconsistent capacities. I usually recommend Varta's, but I have very little personal experience with capacity issues or leaking, so this is more to never having had a specific issue with them and it being a tracable brand. My thought would be that 9V would be just as prone to failure as other types.
I personally think a meter on penlights would be slightly more efficient, since a linear systems usually work on a modest range of voltages, and any excess will just cause more dissipation because bias currents usually stay the same (noting reality is rather more complicated). An AAA cell has more mAh's in it than a 9V cell, so a properly designed meter with AAA's could potentially outlast one on a 9V battery.
I did write Brymen about the long settling times and provided them a link to the video. Here is their response:
[...]
Cool, I've added that detail to the manual.
Great! :-+
I also found a video of mjlorton (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1660&v=9ynbdKheoqs) (27:40) noting there seems to be a settling time in AC measurements on the Amprobe rebadged BM857A. He also mentions here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2436&v=9ynbdKheoqs) (40:36) when in manual mode it takes time to settle, but does not in auto mode, which is quite interesting and might or might not be related. I have not tried reproducing this (yet).
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I must say I love my little Brymen 235. Until watching EEVBlog I had never heard of Brymen and I'm very surprised at the quality. I've got the 235 and a 869s now, I really like both of them. The silicon meter probes are superb, I've even ordered some spare ones for my fluke meters.
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Speaking of which, looks like the EEVblog BM235 is out of stock on Amazon.com.
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I must say I love my little Brymen 235. Until watching EEVBlog I had never heard of Brymen and I'm very surprised at the quality. I've got the 235 and a 869s now, I really like both of them. The silicon meter probes are superb, I've even ordered some spare ones for my fluke meters.
Welcome to the site. I'm in the same boat. I never heard of Brymen until a few years ago and also have the BM869s. It gets a lot of use on the bench and it's my favorite meter by far.
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Love mine! Only thing I miss is the bar graph at the bottom of the display, but I have other meters if I really need that for an application.
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I must say I love my little Brymen 235. Until watching EEVBlog I had never heard of Brymen and I'm very surprised at the quality. The silicon meter probes are superb, I've even ordered some spare ones for my fluke meters.
Welcome to the site. I'm in the same boat. I never heard of Brymen until a few years ago and also have the BM869s. It gets a lot of use on the bench and it's my favorite meter by far.
Almost the same here. Never heard of Brymen until I joined EEvBlog. I became a happy owner of a BM235, BM257S and a BM079 clamp meter this year. Since I started to buy better equipment I have the feeling I'm learning faster. Huge leap but I don't want to fool myself, they won't make me smarter. :-DD
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PS Averaging does not make the result more precise unless the meter has internal noise/jitter needing averaging, but it does not seem to be any more precise with averaging. It does help agains digit flickering, which is quite desirable and I don't mind the presence of the functionality. I like the values chosen for the 869s better though, and I'd have chosen the values for the 235 lower rather than higher to compensate for the lower resolution. Right now the 235 is powerless agains a multi-turn trimmer. :-\
I think the logic here is that if you have a signal with a given amount of noise, the higher resolution meter will detect a significant change more often, so you want to average fewer points to retain more precision.
Given the available processing power in ASICs now, it surprises me that they don't have more in depth information available on demand. Why not allow for the user to bring up not just the 'standard' minimum / maximum / average information, but additional statistical data? A meter that is good at capturing spikes can deliver a less accurate picture of what is going on than one less capable, if it is stuck with min / max / avg.
Possibly this is not considered worthwhile because most applications requiring analysis of the signal quality would push the user to a 'scope, but it seems there is a gap in the market between 'standard' meters and data acquisition devices (or 'scopes used for that purpose).
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Why do they even make meters that require shitty rubbish penlight batteries? They leak often, where as that's usually not the case with 9 volt batteries...
Good question, I must admit I've found a number of leaking Duracell batteries lately in low power long life devices. It's quite concerning considering up till 6 months ago I'd never had issues with them.
This seems to be a recent quality issue with Duracell batteries. I always regarded Duracell very highly, but their quality seems to have eroded. There is a video of bigclivedotcom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=189&v=-I4liMndTsI) showing 1) cheap alkalines outlasting them and 2) one of the types providing very inconsistent capacities. I usually recommend Varta's, but I have very little personal experience with capacity issues or leaking, so this is more to never having had a specific issue with them and it being a tracable brand. My thought would be that 9V would be just as prone to failure as other types.
I noticed my stack of old batteries and found 2 (out of 4) Duracells (the industrial type) to leak when empty, while none of the other alkaline cells did. They had 2 and 3 years left in their expriration dates. These batteries came out of clocks and the likes, and were stored in locations without any significant environmental influences for less than a year. If your piece of equipment is prone to being stored long enough for the batteries to go flat I recommend you not use these! (Especially not on your pretty new BM235). It looks like it leaks from the bottom, but it is hard to tell. The top cap is near impossible to remove and I didn't bother.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4193/33887823443_6c20f650a8_m.jpg) (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4193/33887823443_752e84f137_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4183/34697584825_7fe38e3df7_m.jpg) (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4183/34697584825_42a8ed7dd2_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4171/34697587135_ddbf7d872b_m.jpg) (https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4171/34697587135_8be4bda83b_o.jpg)
PS Averaging does not make the result more precise unless the meter has internal noise/jitter needing averaging, but it does not seem to be any more precise with averaging. It does help agains digit flickering, which is quite desirable and I don't mind the presence of the functionality. I like the values chosen for the 869s better though, and I'd have chosen the values for the 235 lower rather than higher to compensate for the lower resolution. Right now the 235 is powerless agains a multi-turn trimmer. :-\
I think the logic here is that if you have a signal with a given amount of noise, the higher resolution meter will detect a significant change more often, so you want to average fewer points to retain more precision.
[...]
Possibly this is not considered worthwhile because most applications requiring analysis of the signal quality would push the user to a 'scope, but it seems there is a gap in the market between 'standard' meters and data acquisition devices (or 'scopes used for that purpose).
My main point is if you want to tweak a circuit (let's say quiescent current settings or hysteresis tweaking) you'd rather have something that responds relatively quickly when doing a change. If I tweak a pot I want the result to display on my meter now instead of in 3,2s. I was recently experimenting and I used another meter for the purpose. When using the BM869 the tweak is way more likely to change enough counts to exceed the threshold than on the 235. As a matter of pure coincidence I was recently checking the linearity of a number of cheap multi-turn pots, measuring it every 30 degrees of rotation and I can tell you waiting for 3,2s for every measument is quite tedious. I used the Metrahit One for the second one because it takes just one screen update to show the final value.
On the other hand I must re-emphasise the info Brymen released did help a lot, now I at least know the value is correct after 3,2s rather than waiting for a random time period hoping it is settled then. With this kind of info I can make way more confident measurements.
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Duracell’s are known to leak. They are crap. My EEVBlog meter arrived a few hours ago. I immediately dropped rechargeable Eneloops into it. I am liking this meter. I purchased it from Amazon. Getting it on Amazon, does Dave still make a few bucks on my purchase?
Russ
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Duracell batteries are absolute shit now. Here's one that isn't even dead!
Warren Buffett Berkshire Hathaway bought Procter & Gamble Co’s Duracell battery unit and lately they are cheap garbage.
Anyhow, Eneloops are great I love them.
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I purchased it from Amazon. Getting it on Amazon, does Dave still make a few bucks on my purchase?
More than few bucks. I am the one actually selling it on Amazon, I ship the stock to Amazon myself, all profits (minus Amazon's 18% FBA fee) go to me directly.
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I bought mine directly from https://www.eevblog.com/store (https://www.eevblog.com/store) with express DHL shipping to Sweden, $50 cheaper than Amazon with their fees :wtf:
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Dave
Good to hear that you made a few $ on it. At $125.00, I think it’s a good deal. I immediately removed the Toshiba batteries and replaced them with Eneloops. Do the Toshiba’s have any known quality issues? I also purchased the carrying case too. 👍
Thanks
Russ
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Duracell batteries are absolute shit now. Here's one that isn't even dead!
Warren Buffett Berkshire Hathaway bought Procter & Gamble Co’s Duracell battery unit and lately they are cheap garbage.
Anyhow, Eneloops are great I love them.
Yeah I've found the same and as a result I buy the Aldi alkaline batteries now and have had zero issues in the last 6 months.
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I have a question on the minimum capacitance measurements possible with the Brymen BM235, as well as the BM869S. Their specs state 20nF and 50nF respectively (IIRC), but I think these numbers reflect the highest measurement possible using the lowest range. What are the actual lowest measurements for capacitance? Has anyone checked?
Thanks. Rick.
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Picked up the EEVblog BM235 and I'm at work trying to read up on it. I have not even powered it up yet and see the Duracell battery issue on this thread. Strange in that my daughter pointed out just the other day that my entire package of relatively new Duracell battery's were corroding while still in the package! Fortunately it was a Costco buy and they'll take them back. I've been using Enloops as well but I think I've got them loaded up in various toys and need to buy some more.
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The IKEA Ladda rechargeable batteries are actually, rebadged Eneloop Pro batteries. And much cheaper than the Eneloop branded versions. 👍
The IKEA Ladda AAA batt’s are 900 mAh batteries.
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Received my BM235 recently and am very pleased with it, but i need to clear up an issue. The reading update is not smooth, it updates rapidly for about seven counts then freezes for the equivalent of four counts then continues to update for another seven counts, freezes again and so on. Is this normal? I haven't been able to see this this on any of the Youtube review videos.
I bought this meter without realizing that it didn't have a bar graph. I absolutely need one for the work that I do so I also bought a UNI-T UT61E which has a very fast refresh bar graph. Great, so far so good, but both these meters have an extremely low volume continuity beeper which I simply can't hear so I'm forced to use an old Meterman 5XL which is at least three times louder than both the other meters combined. I want to replace the Meterman because it's useless for voltage measurements (it was given to me) but I need a meter with a LOUD continuity beeper that doesn't cost a fortune. Suggestions?
On the plus side I use the temperature probe to test for overheating power tubes... great feature. Really want to thank Dave for everything!
(Oh, and I like the blue color of the BM235, all my other meters are red, lol. )
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"my daughter pointed out just the other day that my entire package of relatively new Duracell battery's were corroding while still in the package! "
No Way! My daughter pointed out just the other day that my entire package of relatively new Duracell battery's were also corroding while still in the package! AAA for me, also going back to Costco. Then cleaning off my walkie talkie they Fed up, and moving the rest of the way to Enloops.
Duracells use to be top notch, now they are the F***ing worst. Multiple leakages from them. Where did Everreadys go? They need to step up.
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Duracells have been crappy for a couple of decades. Go with the Eneloops. Also, stay away from all Ray O ac batteries.
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I like the meter a lot, except for one thing.
I cannot get the Hz function to work.
I rarely use it but I needed it today and luckily I have another meter that does it.
Has anyone else tried it and got it working ?
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It's a good value for the money.
The leads are very good, the digits are darker, good brightness ; remembers the settings when powered off, very accurate. Battery life i'm still using for now the ones that came and so far so good.
Don't use cheap or v shape banana connectors on the A/mA range, because it may lead to wank the beepJack if using custom leads.
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I like the meter a lot, except for one thing.
I cannot get the Hz function to work.
I rarely use it but I needed it today and luckily I have another meter that does it.
Has anyone else tried it and got it working ?
Can you give more information? Like what voltage and frequency were you trying to measure? Saying "it doesn't work" is hopeless. Obviously it does work.
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@Hextejas, Yes Hz function works correctly but the sensitivity varies from about 8% to 90% of the full scale range to get a proper reading. Use to range button to put the meter in manual mode then select the lowest range you can for the signal you are measuring without going off scale. I tested it on 3v and 120v signals and obtained the correct result of 60 Hz. Check the manual and you will see how widely the sensitivity changes.
My meter doesn't update readings smoothly and this bothers me quite a bit. I get about 6 updates then a hesitation then it updates again. Does this happen to you?
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My meter doesn't update readings smoothly and this bothers me quite a bit. I get about 6 updates then a hesitation then it updates again. Does this happen to you?
I could not test this without a continuously varying frequency. For example, when measuring the mains frequency it is constant and doesn't change, so I cannot see or tell when the display updates.
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My meter doesn't update readings smoothly and this bothers me quite a bit. I get about 6 updates then a hesitation then it updates again. Does this happen to you?
Apparently it does happen on DC volts, for example. It doesn't bother me particularly, though.
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My meter acts this way on all measurements: voltage, resistance, and current
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OK thanks, I was wondering if it was defective, I have never seen this behavior before
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I like the meter a lot, except for one thing.
I cannot get the Hz function to work.
I rarely use it but I needed it today and luckily I have another meter that does it.
Has anyone else tried it and got it working ?
Can you give more information? Like what voltage and frequency were you trying to measure? Saying "it doesn't work" is hopeless. Obviously it does work.
Sorry Ian, I could have been more specific. I was trying to read 1.2khz @ 10v. I think that I had it set correctly, but will try again tomorrow. I followed the manual, set the freq/v to 6 and the meter showed 00.00.
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Sorry Ian, I could have been more specific. I was trying to read 1.2khz @ 10v. I think that I had it set correctly, but will try again tomorrow. I followed the manual, set the freq/v to 6 and the meter showed 00.00.
I can't test your exact signal myself, but what I would do is let the meter auto-range on the AC V setting until it shows 10 V on the display, then press the Hz button.
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I just did a quick test with my local line frequency of 60 Hz. When measuring frequency and with the sensitivity set to 60 V, the meter was able to report the frequency correctly with an input down to 2.5 V. Below about 2.5 V the display showed 00.00.
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I am in Germany, which small size DMM for about 100€ is the best buy? Is it still bm257s?
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gonna try and post 5 pictures.
2 are with a working meter Amprobe
3 with the bm235 not working
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gonna try and post 5 pictures.
2 are with a working meter Amprobe
3 with the bm235 not working
You are measuring 10v on what seems to be the 600v range, the minimum sensitivity for this range is 50v according to the line frequency chart in the Brymen manual on page 28. Try increasing the signal level to 60v.
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gonna try and post 5 pictures.
2 are with a working meter Amprobe
3 with the bm235 not working
You seem to be using the "LoZ" mode. Switch instead to the "VFD V~=" range and press SELECT until the display shows "~". It should auto-range to the 60 V range. Then press the "Hz" button.
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gonna try and post 5 pictures.
2 are with a working meter Amprobe
3 with the bm235 not working
You seem to be using the "LoZ" mode. Switch instead to the "VFD V~=" range and press SELECT until the display shows "~". It should auto-range to the 60 V range. Then press the "Hz" button.
10v is minimum sensitivity for the 60v range also, need higher voltage to trigger the frequency counter
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10v is minimum sensitivity for the 60v range also, need higher voltage to trigger the frequency counter
The signal is 10 V. But I tested it down to 2.5 V successfully. Or change to the 6 V frequency setting.
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A quick test:
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I like the meter a lot, except for one thing.
I cannot get the Hz function to work.
I rarely use it but I needed it today and luckily I have another meter that does it.
Has anyone else tried it and got it working ?
Can you give more information? Like what voltage and frequency were you trying to measure? Saying "it doesn't work" is hopeless. Obviously it does work.
Sorry Ian, I could have been more specific. I was trying to read 1.2khz @ 10v. I think that I had it set correctly, but will try again tomorrow. I followed the manual, set the freq/v to 6 and the meter showed 00.00.
It's not enough information. My guess is you are biasing the signal above the meter's common and have not considered that the BM235 requires a zero cross. If this is not what you are doing, please provide further details.
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Lets see.
I was showing the BM235 against the same input that shows correctly and as expected on the other meter.
I set the hz meter to 6v sensitivity as suggested. That supposedly is the most sensitive setting or so someone said.
I was using the the LoZ setting so as to be able to show the voltage under test. ~10.5
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gonna try and post 5 pictures.
2 are with a working meter Amprobe
3 with the bm235 not working
You are measuring 10v on what seems to be the 600v range, the minimum sensitivity for this range is 50v according to the line frequency chart in the Brymen manual on page 28. Try increasing the signal level to 60v.
I believe that I tested it on the 6v range as well as the 60v range. I will try ot again.
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10v is minimum sensitivity for the 60v range also, need higher voltage to trigger the frequency counter
The signal is 10 V. But I tested it down to 2.5 V successfully. Or change to the 6 V frequency setting.
I did Ian, as one of the pictures shows the 6V.
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A quick test:
Your signal was 1Khz exactly Ian ?
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I like the meter a lot, except for one thing.
I cannot get the Hz function to work.
I rarely use it but I needed it today and luckily I have another meter that does it.
Has anyone else tried it and got it working ?
Can you give more information? Like what voltage and frequency were you trying to measure? Saying "it doesn't work" is hopeless. Obviously it does work.
Sorry Ian, I could have been more specific. I was trying to read 1.2khz @ 10v. I think that I had it set correctly, but will try again tomorrow. I followed the manual, set the freq/v to 6 and the meter showed 00.00.
It's not enough information. My guess is you are biasing the signal above the meter's common and have not considered that the BM235 requires a zero cross. If this is not what you are doing, please provide further details.
Ian, I have no idea what you are talking about with the "biasing the signal above the meter's common "
Sorry
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Place the BM235 into DC mode after you have applied the signal. What value does it read?
If for example, you have a 10Vp-p signal, or 5V peak and you have a 5V DC offset, the voltage would switch between 0 to 10 volts rather than -5 to +5. The BM235 needs to see the signal go through 0 volts to read frequency. In the last picture, I have places a series capacitor inline with the BM235 to block the DC. As you can see, the meter reads the correct frequency where in the previous picture it reads zero.
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It's not enough information. My guess is you are biasing the signal above the meter's common and have not considered that the BM235 requires a zero cross. If this is not what you are doing, please provide further details.
Ian, I have no idea what you are talking about with the "biasing the signal above the meter's common "
Sorry
It was Joe who said this, not me...
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I was using the the LoZ setting so as to be able to show the voltage under test. ~10.5
I do not understand. The LoZ setting is special and you do not have to use it for normal measurements. For these tests it will be better to use the AC volts setting as in my pictures.
Your signal was 1Khz exactly Ian ?
Yes, it was.
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Place the BM235 into DC mode after you have applied the signal. What value does it read?
If for example, you have a 10Vp-p signal, or 5V peak and you have a 5V DC offset, the voltage would switch between 0 to 10 volts rather than -5 to +5. The BM235 needs to see the signal go through 0 volts to read frequency. In the last picture, I have places a series capacitor inline with the BM235 to block the DC. As you can see, the meter reads the correct frequency where in the previous picture it reads zero.
Thats correct
In the lines of joeqsmith try using a signal generator to add the 5V DC offset to 10Vp signal at 10Hz 50Hz 100Hz 400hz and 1Khz . If you measure AC voltage and switch to frequency it will read correctly because the sinosoidal passes zero point. Remember in the manual that the true RMS is buit-in in the chip, not a dedicated chip, so frequency and / or behavior will be a bit compromised.
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Lets see.
I was showing the BM235 against the same input that shows correctly and as expected on the other meter.
I set the hz meter to 6v sensitivity as suggested. That supposedly is the most sensitive setting or so someone said.
I was using the the LoZ setting so as to be able to show the voltage under test. ~10.5
The AMPROBE AM510, no matter if you had selected the AC volts mode and then select the Hz button or use the frequency mode as you have shown, does not require a zero cross.
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Place the BM235 into DC mode after you have applied the signal. What value does it read?
If for example, you have a 10Vp-p signal, or 5V peak and you have a 5V DC offset, the voltage would switch between 0 to 10 volts rather than -5 to +5. The BM235 needs to see the signal go through 0 volts to read frequency. In the last picture, I have places a series capacitor inline with the BM235 to block the DC. As you can see, the meter reads the correct frequency where in the previous picture it reads zero.
Ok back at this and I am about to give up.
I put the Bm235 on Hz setting, it read 0, I switched to DC and it read -1.840. Odd!
If its any consolation, it reads the line voltage correctly at 60hz
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I give up
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You have not told us the source of the signal you are measuring. What is generating it?
You are saying that if you set the meter to AC V you see a reading of ~10.5 V? And if you set it to DC V you see a reading of -1.84 V? This indicates you have an AC voltage of about 10.5 V RMS with a DC bias of -1.84 V. This should show the frequency correctly. You have definitely stopped using LoZ mode?
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Please try the following steps:
1. Turn the selection knob to "VFD V" as per my previously uploaded photo
2. Press the "SELECT" button until the display shows "AUTO ~" (AC). What does it read?
3. Press the "SELECT" button until the display shows "AUTO" (DC). What does it read?
4. Press "SELECT" back to "AUTO ~". Press the "Hz" button. What do you see?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-do-you-think-of-your-eevblog-brymen-bm235-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=514112;image)
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Please try the following steps:
1. Turn the selection knob to "VFD V" as per my previously uploaded photo
2. Press the "SELECT" button until the display shows "AUTO ~" (AC). What does it read?
3. Press the "SELECT" button until the display shows "AUTO" (DC). What does it read?
4. Press "SELECT" back to "AUTO ~". Press the "Hz" button. What do you see?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-do-you-think-of-your-eevblog-brymen-bm235-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=514112;image)
ok once again.
1. Selection knob to VFD V
2. select button shows Auto ~ .549 v
3. Select button again shows Auto ~ 000.1v
4. Select button shows Auto DC 10.49
5. Select button shows Auto ~ .549
6. Hz shows 6v momentarily, then Auto 00.00 Hz,
I got 1 more ac in there than you have.
One thing that I noticed that might make a difference is that the DC offset on the signal generator was completely clockwise.
I have no idea what it does
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1. Selection knob to VFD V
2. select button shows Auto ~ .549 v
3. Select button again shows Auto ~ 000.1v
4. Select button shows Auto DC 10.49
5. Select button shows Auto ~ .549
6. Hz shows 6v momentarily, then Auto 00.00 Hz,
I got 1 more ac in there than you have.
One of the AC readings will also say "VFD" (probably at step 3). Ignore that one.
However, it is now very clear what is happening:
1. You have a DC voltage of 10.49 V
2. You have an AC voltage of 0.549 V superimposed on top of this DC voltage.
As we have been telling you, the meter cannot detect frequency when the AC voltage does not cross zero. In this case half a volt varying around 10.5 volts is very far away from zero.
One thing that I noticed that might make a difference is that the DC offset on the signal generator was completely clockwise.
I have no idea what it does
This is your problem, of course. The DC offset control applies a DC offset to the signal (a 10.5 volt offset in this case). Set the DC offset to zero and then see what happens.
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Ian, thank you a lot for your help.
The 1kz signal is coming from a HP 3311a function generator.
Is that 1khz signal seen as an AC voltage ? That's what I think that I was expecting but I am beginning to see that it is not.
I don't know what it is other than maybe fluctuating DC.
I need to read more about this .
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Try adjust the DC offset knob to minus side untill you get a reading thus the zero cross control peeks the desired frequency.
Anyway here is a link for the documentation regarding the signal generator:
http://ohm.bu.edu/~pbohn/REPAIR__Advanced_Lab/Mossbauer/Data_Sheets/Generator.pdf (http://ohm.bu.edu/~pbohn/REPAIR__Advanced_Lab/Mossbauer/Data_Sheets/Generator.pdf)
Don't be scared of the Repair :P It's just for a quick checkout
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Have you installed a DC blocking capacitor like I showed? The value is not real critical.
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Ian, thank you a lot for your help.
The 1kz signal is coming from a HP 3311a function generator.
Is that 1khz signal seen as an AC voltage ? That's what I think that I was expecting but I am beginning to see that it is not.
I don't know what it is other than maybe fluctuating DC.
I need to read more about this .
Generally speaking, a periodic signal has two parts, an "AC" part and a "DC" part. The "AC" part is the wobble, and the "DC" part is the center or baseline of that wobble. So a simple signal may oscillate around zero volts, going from say, -1 to +1. This is what the mains waveform looks like. But, it doesn't have to. Instead of oscillating around zero, it could oscillate around, say, 10 volts, going from +9 to +11, with +10 in the middle.
This signal would be described as the sum of two components: a DC component of 10 volts, and an AC component with an amplitude of 1 volt.
If you have a signal like this, you can block the DC component by putting a capacitor in the circuit, as Joe did in the picture below. This lets just the AC part through, and then the BM235 will be able to measure the frequency:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-do-you-think-of-your-eevblog-brymen-bm235-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=514163;image)
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Pictures can help here - so let's look at DC offset .....
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-do-you-think-of-your-eevblog-brymen-bm235-multimeter/?action=dlattach;attach=515150;image)
Waveform B is your typical AC that everyone knows and understands. It swings symmetrically above and below zero volts, crossing that zero level twice in each cycle.
Waveform A is an example of AC that swings between +1V and +3V - and here is where some confusion can arise. It may appear as being a "varying DC" because the voltage never gets near zero volts, let alone go negative - but that is just how it looks.
When it comes to analysing such a signal and doing math, it is much easier to think of it as having two components: The pure AC part (which in this example is 1V peak or 0.707V RMS) and the amount this has been shifted from the zero volt axis, which is a DC value (which, in this case is +2V ).
What is most significant is that this two component approach works for practical efforts with circuits and makes life much, much simpler.
Your function generator has this ability to add this "DC offset" - in whatever amount you need - to the AC signal it produces. This allows you to feed it to a circuit that uses an AC signal that does not go below 0V - such as an audio amplifier which is powered by a single, positive supply.
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I am in Germany, which small size DMM for about 100€ is the best buy? Is it still bm257s?
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I need to read the ripple current on the filter caps of a 450v DC power supply. Unfortunately this meter cannot do this, although my 25 year old cheap Radio Shack Micronta Smart2 has no problems. UNI-T 61E can't do this either. Can someone suggest an affordable multimeter that is truly AC coupled on the AC voltage range? (No, I don't want to use a series capacitor). Thanks for any suggestions!
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Well here is a video how the zero cross is working with a cheapo DDS 1Vpp 1Khz signal that has the DC offset being Adjusted up and down.
Watch what happends to frequency and voltage reading when offset is being changed and the threshold point where it starts fail in lower DC offset.
https://youtu.be/3TF5SVDtduM
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How low in the Ohm range will BM235 go? I checked many spec sheets, user manual and they all state the accuracy level for 600Ω / 60MΩ but I can't see the lowest measurable resistance.
Mine does not work in the milliohms range so I suppose 1 Ohm is the lowest.
I try to measure the internal resistance of the 18650 batteries and it shows nothing. A bummer!
Anybody knows or could point me to this specs?
Thanks.
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How low in the Ohm range will BM235 go? I checked many spec sheets, user manual and they all state the accuracy level for 600Ω / 60MΩ but I can't see the lowest measurable resistance.
The math is easy: It's a 6000 count meter and it has a 600 Ohm range. How many digits after the decimal point?
Mine does not work in the milliohms range so I suppose 1 Ohm is the lowest.
No meter is going to measure milliohms directly. You need special techniques for that.
I try to measure the internal resistance of the 18650 batteries and it shows nothing. A bummer!
And no meter will measure the internal resistance of a battery. Meters measure resistance by passing a known current through the thing you're measuring then using Ohms law. You can't measure the resistance of anything that's powered on or that can supply a voltage (eg. a battery).