What is the "best" Oscilliscope that I can get for $30,000?

[Fungus]

I can't believe everybody here is spending all their time trying to talk him out of it instead of discussing $30k oscilloscopes.

[kcbrown]

I can't believe everybody here is spending all their time trying to talk him out of it instead of discussing $30k oscilloscopes.

Best comment in the thread.   LOL!!!   


So with that in mind, please discuss everything that's wrong with https://saving.em.keysight.com/en/used/oscilloscopes/msos604a-e185152669471

 

[tautech]

AFAICT Symax is still getting his head around scopes recommended for the price they are might not be a capable as he thinks but of course we know a different story.

I think it's even worse than that.  I'd wager he doesn't even have any idea what capabilities he'll need or even actually want.  What he has on his bench right now suggests a rank beginner to me.  That's basically what I am, frankly, and though I am fortunate enough that I could afford equipment in the price range he's talking about, and although I sometimes salivate over equipment like that, I'm also practical enough to know that I'm likely to use only a fraction of the total capability of even instruments like the SDS2104X+.

Certainly and that's a dilemma I'm often faced with as today's instruments often offer way more capability than many need or are likely to. KC, you also have the 4ch X-E and even these have features that it's hard to comprehend could be jammed into such a small package. They are just at a price point than a few don't want to stretch to so the X-U was developed which although not as well featured is enough scope for most ppls.....hell even the $379 SDS1202X-E is if you know how to drive it.

[kcbrown]

Certainly and that's a dilemma I'm often faced with as today's instruments often offer way more capability than many need or are likely to. KC, you also have the 4ch X-E and even these have features that it's hard to comprehend could be jammed into such a small package. They are just at a price point than a few don't want to stretch to so the X-U was developed which although not as well featured is enough scope for most ppls.....hell even the $379 SDS1202X-E is if you know how to drive it.

Yep, exactly. 

The reason I got the SDS2104X+, despite already having the SDS1204X-E, is that I felt the screen of my SDS1204X-E was a bit limiting and the touchscreen of the SDS2104X+ (and the increased size and resolution of the screen) looked like a major usability improvement.  It also looked to have fixed some of the major gripes I had with the SDS1204X-E (zoom mode is done properly on the 2104X+).  It really did look like the last scope I'd likely ever need.  And it still does, of course.  Despite my gripes with the lack of responsiveness of the front panel, I'm immensely happy with it.  It's helped me solve some major problems (for instance, diagnosing a dead computer motherboard). 

And I needed a Christmas present.  It was a great Christmas present!   

I won't be surprised if, in a few years, a scope like the SDS2104X+ becomes the new "low end" offering.  Hard to say.  Depends on how much the CPU and FPGA technology improves from here.

[bdunham7]

I can't believe everybody here is spending all their time trying to talk him out of it instead of discussing $30k oscilloscopes.

Which $30K oscilloscopes would you like to discuss?

[KaneTW]

Honestly if you have 30k to spend, get a R&S RTO6.

[EEVblog]

If you don't know what you need it for, you simply don't need $30k scope.

This.

But hey, it's your (or someone else's?) money. So, if you want to drop that kind of coin on a scope, you'd want to demo them all first and see what ones you like. Keysight, Tek, Lecroy, R&S are the biggies.
Any dealer would be happy to come and give you a demo of one.

[EEVblog]

I just hope he's not trolling us and making us waste our time

On the other hand ... it is fun to dream about gear's on cost of other peoples money

I came into an inheritance and would like to get a good scope.  So yeah, go ahead and dream as big as you want.  I will be using this thread to base my purchasing decision on.  So if you were to start fresh, what would you have liked to get?

Ok, havign now read the thread I've gotta say that this is kinda silly. $30k on a scope because you can is kinda pointless. It's not like splashing out on a Lamborghini, as even Joe Average can get a thrill out of driving that.
Getting the Lamborghini of scopes isn't going to give you a thrill, in fact it's likely going to be really annoying to use. The higher end and more complex a scope gets, generally speaking, the more annoying it is to use on a daily basis. They are big, hard to move around, take forever to boot up, have big loud fans, probably no dedicated knobs, and a UI that's very annoying for daily use.
Many a high end lab at big companies has a big expensive high end scope like this and it almost always just sits in the corner gathering dust, while the easier to use and more practical lower end scopes get used daily. Most engineers groan when they have to get the big expensive scope out to do some specific high end measurement they need.

If I was to spend some coin on a scope, IMO the nicest to use on a daily basis is the Keysight. It's certainly not the best bang-per-buck, but it's the fasted UI and "just works", which is very nice for daily use.
As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

I'm with the others. $5k can get you a really nice kitted out lab. Scope, function gen, 6.5 digit meter, load, PSU's, diff probes, irons, fume extractor, mats, hand tools, microscope, thermal imager etc.
$10k if you really want to splurge.

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

I hate to say this, since I am a rebellious hippie, but the administrator is absolutely correct.
I agree: scope is just one part of a lab that you will probably need or want.

[tautech]

I won't be surprised if, in a few years, a scope like the SDS2104X+ becomes the new "low end" offering.  Hard to say.  Depends on how much the CPU and FPGA technology improves from here.

In the 8 years we have really gone to suppling gear officially the rate of change has been outstanding and every new series offers a whole lot more capability where I too wonder where things will be in the next 10 years. 
Whereas the A brands seem to have only pushed ahead at the the leading edge while the Chinese have come in and eaten their lunch. 
IMO the 2kX+ will be around for a good while yet such as the hit it has been however it remains to be seen how much of an impact SDS6000A will make in the lower BW mid range market. I do know our beta testers are quite excited about it and how it kicks butt of most of the A brands.
Show me another 2 GHz DSO available for under $10k. 

[bdunham7]

As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

If you're just whacking around on 'normal' stuff I can see that, but my scope use is a bit more occasional (I don't have a full-time spot on the bench for one) but the issue usually isn't how quickly or nicely I can do something, it's whether the scope has the functionality to accomplish what I want at all.  Whether it is bandwidth, a specialty trigger, memory, low noise, FFT resolution/noise or whatever, I can live with an obtuse UI (although I'm happy to whine about it just like everyone else) and the real test for me is the ultimate capabilities.  So, 'bang for buck' becomes more important than 'polish', at least in the case where you frequently end up at the limits of the capabilities of entry level scopes.

At $30K the discussion becomes ridiculous.  I'd try to buy as loaded a Tek MSO58 as you can get for $30K because 8 channels is nice, but I'm probably not in the majority. 

[Brumby]

If you don't know what you need it for, you simply don't need $30k scope.

This.

I simply have to agree here.

If you were to buy a plane - would you spend the money on a Lear jet, an SR-71 Blackbird or an Airbus A380 (with no understanding WHY you would require such beasts), just because you could?  Start with something more modest - even if a little lavish.  A Cessna 180 Skywagon might do everything you want.  Try it and fly it ... then you'll start to understand what is important to you.

But hey, it's your (or someone else's?) money. So, if you want to drop that kind of coin on a scope, you'd want to demo them all first and see what ones you like. Keysight, Tek, Lecroy, R&S are the biggies.
Any dealer would be happy to come and give you a demo of one.

Yep, it's your money - so the choice is yours - but for that sort of coin, I'D be getting some personal attention.

[Brumby]

Certainly a capable scope is high on the wish list - but that will not be a problem with the budget you have.  Choosing the right one for you is - and we can see that by your starting this thread.

I don't think there is anyone here who would not envy your budget - and we are certainly enjoying a little vicarious pleasure here - but we still have a practical bent on where our thinking goes.  This is why there is the apprehension expressed by many respondents.

Your budget would allow for a very healthy outcome for an entire electronics lab ... certainly for a developing interest.  Knowing what you want will come from playing around with basic gear - as will knowing how you want those features to perform.  For example, many scopes will include FFT functionality (as presented by the marketing department) - but would operate differently.  This could be in fundamental capabilities or the user interface.  Would you know how to assess which scope has the better fit for you?


I agree with the common sentiment that it would be a far more rewarding exercise to look at setting up a more complete lab and start learning for yourself.  We will certainly LOVE to answer any questions you will have.

I would keep this initial investment well under the $10,000 mark (around $5,000 would still get you some great gear).  Then, as you learn what is not adequate for your needs, you can upgrade the relevant pieces of kit with the $20,000-$25,000 you still have in the kitty.


Oh, and don't worry about having more than one scope.  There are a great many of us here who have multiple.    ..... and occasionally having a second (or third) scope on the bench is very handy.

[kcbrown]

At $30K the discussion becomes ridiculous.  I'd try to buy as loaded a Tek MSO58 as you can get for $30K because 8 channels is nice, but I'm probably not in the majority.

If the prices I'm seeing are any indication, $30K (actually, a little bit more: $31K) is what you'd pay for the lowest priced version of the MSO58, and that's a 500 MHz bandwidth version at that.

But hey, if you've got that kind of cash to spend, then what's an extra 20%, right?     So you may as well sacrifice a couple of channels and go for the MSO66B, which is 6 channels at 1 GHz bandwidth.  Both of these scopes are flex channel scopes where you can switch any analog channel to 8 digital channels just by attaching the appropriate probe.

Prices are those listed at TestEquity.

Shahriar did an excellent overview of the MSO58 here:

He also has one on the 6-Series here:

Both look like amazing pieces of kit.  Initially the 5-Series didn't allow triggering on frequency domain events, which of course surprised Shahriar, but it appears they fixed that since then.  The video on the MSO58 is 4 years old.

The UI on the MSO58 looks quite responsive, and I'd expect the 6-Series UI to be at least as responsive, if not more so.

[tautech]

Yeah well for $30k you could also have three, yes three 4ch 2 GHz DSO's.

Yes this is getting silly..........

[EEVblog]

I would keep this initial investment well under the $10,000 mark (around $5,000 would still get you some great gear).  Then, as you learn what is not adequate for your needs, you can upgrade the relevant pieces of kit with the $20,000-$25,000 you still have in the kitty.

Heck, the spare $20k-$25k could pay for an entire DIY backyard cabin/lab building!

[Symax]

I would keep this initial investment well under the $10,000 mark (around $5,000 would still get you some great gear).  Then, as you learn what is not adequate for your needs, you can upgrade the relevant pieces of kit with the $20,000-$25,000 you still have in the kitty.

Heck, the spare $20k-$25k could pay for an entire DIY backyard cabin/lab building!

Love your videos Dave.  I would love to see you make one involving designing and building an excellent electronics lab from scratch with an unlimited budget!

[kcbrown]

Love your videos Dave.  I would love to see you make one involving designing and building an excellent electronics lab from scratch with an unlimited budget!

That might be tough for him to do since he probably doesn't have an unlimited budget.   

But yeah, I'd definitely watch that video!

[tautech]

As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

Yet you'd be doing many a great disservice today recommending a DSO with just 1 Mpts mem depth.

[kcbrown]

As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

Yet you'd be doing many a great disservice today recommending a DSO with just 1 Mpts mem depth.

I don't know that he would.  You can do a lot with 1 million points of memory depth.  Look at the sheer amount that's been accomplished with scopes with far less memory than that.  Of course, you can do more with more depth than that, but that's true for most other scope characteristics as well.  The question is how often more memory than that will make the difference between solving the problem and failing to solve it, and I'd wager it's not as often as one might think.

There's a lot to be said for a snappy and responsive instrument.  Such an instrument is a joy to use.  It basically does what you want (presuming it has the capability, of course) when you want it, without hesitation.  That's Keysight's strong suit, and is likely a major reason (if not the reason) Dave reaches for his Keysight.

The main problem with the Keysight is that you pay quite a premium for that snappiness.  Someone who wants a snappy scope but who doesn't want to pay a Keysight premium would be better served with an Instek GDS-1000B series scope, which is both snappy (though not as much as the Keysight -- there are some situations in which the Instek's UI will lag, while from what I can tell the Keysight is always snappy and responsive no matter what it's doing) and has 10x the memory depth, and is far less expensive than the Keysight as well, at least in the U.S.   The Siglent SDS1000X-E series is also reasonably good in terms of its UI responsiveness, but not as good as the Instek.  I have both so I know what I'm talking about here.


Siglent would do well to address the lag in their UI, particularly in the SDS2000X+ series.  It's not like their scopes don't have the horsepower.  The Instek line has no more horsepower than the Siglents do and yet are substantially more responsive in the general case (from my own personal experience).  So it's all a question of how the firmware is designed and built.

[paf]

I know that "best" is relative and needs to be narrowed down quite a bit.  I'm a newbie and I know that.  I have no real idea what to look for in a scope.  If there is some sort of if/then flowchart or program that can help guide me to what features to look for in a scope that would be great.  I also know that budget for a scope is a key factor in recommendations.  My budget is $30,000.  I want a VERY feature rich scope, and I figure with that kind of budget, I can accomplish that.  I also am aware that going with a 4 channel scope is best.  I have been reviewing the other threads on this topic, but most of the scopes come in way under my budget.  The goal is to buy 1 scope and have it be the last scope that I will ever need.  Some of the plans that I have involve decoding software installed into micro controllers such as Arduino, PIC, etc.  I do also mess with RF from time to time.  I am also looking to monitor the sine wave from my 110V outlets because I plan on going somewhat off grid in the future.  I've watched a few YouTube videos and saw suggestions that I should go for as many samples per sec as possible.

Looking for tips and advice.

You need to change your mind. The "best"  oscilloscope (replace oscilloscope for any other 'thing) does not exist. There are "oscilloscopes" that are "better" for different things. You need to know  what you want to do with the oscilloscope. Today scopes are "very digital" and are evolving. In 10 years time, oscilloscopes will be very different, and you will be very different. So save your money. Buy a Rigol DS1054Z (or other in similar price range) to learn, and use your budget for other things.     

[nctnico]

As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

Yet you'd be doing many a great disservice today recommending a DSO with just 1 Mpts mem depth.

Indeed. The OP stated protocol decoding and for that you really want deep memory.

[nctnico]

As someone with a lab full of fairly expensive scopes, it's the small simple Keysight 1000X that I grab when I just want to measure something.

Yet you'd be doing many a great disservice today recommending a DSO with just 1 Mpts mem depth.

Indeed. The OP stated protocol decoding and for that you really want deep memory. A Megazoom Keysight DSO simply isn't the best choice for such jobs.

I don't know that he would.  You can do a lot with 1 million points of memory depth.  Look at the sheer amount that's been accomplished with scopes with far less memory than that.  Of course, you can do more with more depth than that, but that's true for most other scope characteristics as well.  The question is how often more memory than that will make the difference between solving the problem and failing to solve it, and I'd wager it's not as often as one might think.

Yup, people also got to work in Model-T Fords. Time moves on and better solutions are avaiable. Why not take advantage of that?

[IAmBack]

One question to OP: are You talking about scope only, or scope with set of probes, that allow You to fully enjoy abilities of the scope? Your scope will came with set of passive probes (if any), and those will limit useful bandwidth to about 500MHz. For higher bandwith You will need set of active probes, that in case of four channels may easilly cost 10k (4x2.5k), limiting budget for the scope itself. And what about current probes?

[KE5FX]

Yup, people also got to work in Model-T Fords. Time moves on and better solutions are avaiable. Why not take advantage of that?

Buy a cheap, slow Chinese scope with lots of memory, and use that for protocol decoding.  Then get a Megazoom scope to go with it.  See which one you actually use most of the time.  It won't be a close contest.

Analogies involving Model Ts and the like aren't helpful.