Author Topic: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?  (Read 3536 times)

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Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Protoboards have holes in them for through-hole components. Unfortunately many components nowadays are ONLY available as surface mount, meaning you really can't test your circuit on protoboard if any of the components in the circuit are only available as surface mount components, unfortunately. It would be nice if there was some kind of surface mount to pins adapter that would let you attach a surface mount component to a protoboard, but I don't see how such an adapter could be made.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2022, 08:12:53 am »
google surface mount to dip socket

1st result,
   https://abra-electronics.com/interconnects/sockets/surface-mount-to-dip/
iratus parum formica
 

Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2022, 08:34:50 am »
google surface mount to dip socket

1st result,
   https://abra-electronics.com/interconnects/sockets/surface-mount-to-dip/

That's cool. I didn't even know such existed.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2022, 10:01:56 am »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb
 

Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2022, 10:04:24 am »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2022, 10:08:24 am »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.

The ones on mouser/digikey are probably made in the same factory, they just have more middlemen.
 

Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2022, 10:27:28 am »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.

The ones on mouser/digikey are probably made in the same factory, they just have more middlemen.

Stuff you see on Alibaba doesn't even say what company made it. At least on the sites I listed it says the name of the manufacturer. Also I think that Mouser and Digikey are direct distributors for most electronics manufacturers. They buy products from the manufacturer, then sell to the consumer. Same as Alibaba. Except with Alibaba you don't know if it's a legit company, or some no-name shady business selling it through Alibaba on behalf of the real manufacturer, concealing the identity of the manufacturer.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2022, 10:39:12 am »
Protoboards have holes in them for through-hole components. Unfortunately many components nowadays are ONLY available as surface mount, meaning you really can't test your circuit on protoboard if any of the components in the circuit are only available as surface mount components, unfortunately. It would be nice if there was some kind of surface mount to pins adapter that would let you attach a surface mount component to a protoboard, but I don't see how such an adapter could be made.

in addition to the breakout boards mentioned by others, some alternative construction techniques and components are illustrated and discussed at https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/

I encourage people not to be dogmatic about construction techniques[1] but to choose the best combination of techniques for the specific circuit being prototyped.

[1] excepetion: avoid solderless breadboards, unless you want to spend more time debugging the implementation than debugging your circuit.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 10:42:17 am by tggzzz »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2022, 10:51:05 am »
i made my own. when i made several small pcb circuits to send to cheap junk pcb manufacturer, i have more room in the 10cm x 10cm board, so i "hitch hike" the adapters in. so i will get 10-20pcs basically for free. shown in picture (circled in red) a few that i usually work with, sot23-3, sot6 and soic8 to dip8.. if you dont trust cheap junk seller/manufacturer, you can diy and send to not cheap junk, or just get from your trusted digikey at $3+ per piece... https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/adapter-breakout-boards/643
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2022, 10:51:53 am »
Stuff you see on Alibaba doesn't even say what company made it. At least on the sites I listed it says the name of the manufacturer. Also I think that Mouser and Digikey are direct distributors for most electronics manufacturers. They buy products from the manufacturer, then sell to the consumer. Same as Alibaba. Except with Alibaba you don't know if it's a legit company, or some no-name shady business selling it through Alibaba on behalf of the real manufacturer, concealing the identity of the manufacturer.

I'm not exactly sure how a PCB can be "shady", but let's do the math:

I can buy one adapter from the site you posted for $1.33 plus about $20 shipping:

https://abra-electronics.com/boards/surface-mount-to-dip-adapter-boards/bob-00717-sot23-to-dip-adpater-bob-00717.html


Or... I can buy 50 adapters from Aliexpress for less money and under $2 shipping:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256802590742527.html

Your choice.  :-//
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 10:53:59 am by Fungus »
 
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Online pcprogrammer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2022, 10:55:13 am »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.

The ones on mouser/digikey are probably made in the same factory, they just have more middlemen.

Stuff you see on Alibaba doesn't even say what company made it. At least on the sites I listed it says the name of the manufacturer. Also I think that Mouser and Digikey are direct distributors for most electronics manufacturers. They buy products from the manufacturer, then sell to the consumer. Same as Alibaba. Except with Alibaba you don't know if it's a legit company, or some no-name shady business selling it through Alibaba on behalf of the real manufacturer, concealing the identity of the manufacturer.

Why pay more for it then needed when it is just a simple pcb without components on them. Order a bunch for each size and you are basically set for life. Even if the quality is a bit sub par, which to my experience it is not, as long as only used in prototyping it does not matter. But hey, it is your money :)

Offline Fungus

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2022, 11:05:19 am »
which to my experience it is not...

Nor mine.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2022, 12:46:55 pm »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.

The ones on mouser/digikey are probably made in the same factory, they just have more middlemen.
Typically the self branded stuff from distributors is worse in quality compared to what you buy from Aliexpress or Ebay.

Where it comes to prototyping smd parts: use veroboard and solder components on the solder side and/or mount chips dead bug style. If you can wait a bit just make a board that has some flexibility for experimenting. Much more reliable than using any breadboard solution
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 12:50:04 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2022, 02:01:10 pm »
If you can wait a bit just make a board that has some flexibility for experimenting. Much more reliable than using any breadboard solution
what is more flexible than a breadboard? ;D
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Fungus

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Offline Fungus

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2022, 03:37:55 pm »
just make a board that has some flexibility for experimenting.

Or buy one on Aliexpress.  :)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32595260722.html

 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2022, 03:50:40 pm »
what is more flexible than a breadboard?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32916867562.html
i assume you are joking ;D (flexible is in term how easy we change circuit without solder/desoldering hazard.)
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline artag

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2022, 03:56:12 pm »
The hole-matrix boards are fine for SMD prototyping. Just treat the matrix as a matrixof pads, and solder up to 4 SMD components to each pad. The gaps between pads are typically 0.5mm so a range of SMD footprints will fit, including SOT-23.

You can use the holes for linking the pads on the other side with wire, if needed.

ICs are more of a problem. The breakouts mentioned above help, or small (less than 8 pin) components may fit directly.

I'm not so keen on the boards with a selection of SMD footprints - it's hard to use more than one or two of them. Small generic areas with a 50 thou or 20 thou grid of pads would be useful.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2022, 03:59:17 pm by artag »
 

Online pcprogrammer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2022, 04:01:13 pm »
what is more flexible than a breadboard?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32916867562.html
i assume you are joking ;D (flexible is in term how easy we change circuit without solder/desoldering hazard.)

But both tggzzz and nctnico were writing about reliability which is gained by using solder. Solder-less breadboards are good for many hours of debugging your design due to improper connections.

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2022, 04:36:57 pm »
Solder-less breadboards are good for many hours of debugging your design due to improper connections.
what prohibits you from making improper (wrong) connection on perfboard? none! make sure the breadboard and jumper pins are clean and know its limitation (not for power connection and inductive/capacitive sensitive circuitry) btw i have both bread and perf board in stock, i use which one more suitable. if i need very quick verification, breadboard is the one i grab.
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2022, 04:54:09 pm »
what is more flexible than a breadboard?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32916867562.html
i assume you are joking ;D (flexible is in term how easy we change circuit without solder/desoldering hazard.)

But both tggzzz and nctnico were writing about reliability which is gained by using solder. Solder-less breadboards are good for many hours of debugging your design due to improper connections.

... don't forget the wonders of ground bounce when, given long inductive wire connections, "too many" outputs simultaneously change. There's nothing like an intermittent pattern-sensitive fault to hone your debugging skills :)

Ditto loosely coupled mutual inductors forming a transformer[1]

Ditto capacitors forming new and challenging feedback loops.

[1] example from a Tektronix 184. At least Tek included the inductors in the schematic; the horseshoe is L70, the wire hoop partially hidden behind it is L69, and their mutual inductance forms a transformer



There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online nctnico

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2022, 05:51:21 pm »
Solder-less breadboards are good for many hours of debugging your design due to improper connections.
what prohibits you from making improper (wrong) connection on perfboard? none! make sure the breadboard and jumper pins are clean and know its limitation (not for power connection and inductive/capacitive sensitive circuitry) btw i have both bread and perf board in stock, i use which one more suitable. if i need very quick verification, breadboard is the one i grab.
For quick verification I use a simulator.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2022, 06:33:23 pm »
You can buy them by the hundred in Aliexpress:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=smd+pcb

That site just sells cheap Chinese junk. I'd prefer major electronic component distributors like Mouser or Digikey.

The ones on mouser/digikey are probably made in the same factory, they just have more middlemen.

Stuff you see on Alibaba doesn't even say what company made it. At least on the sites I listed it says the name of the manufacturer. Also I think that Mouser and Digikey are direct distributors for most electronics manufacturers. They buy products from the manufacturer, then sell to the consumer. Same as Alibaba. Except with Alibaba you don't know if it's a legit company, or some no-name shady business selling it through Alibaba on behalf of the real manufacturer, concealing the identity of the manufacturer.
It seems you have lost your roadmap so let's put you straight.
Alibaba = business to business contact portal.
AliExpress = retail Alibaba portal used by sole traders and some business too. Equivalent to eBay that also sell some cheap Chinese junk.

A little less of your incessant China bashing please.

Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2022, 06:51:19 pm »
Solder-less breadboards are good for many hours of debugging your design due to improper connections.
what prohibits you from making improper (wrong) connection on perfboard? none! make sure the breadboard and jumper pins are clean and know its limitation (not for power connection and inductive/capacitive sensitive circuitry) btw i have both bread and perf board in stock, i use which one more suitable. if i need very quick verification, breadboard is the one i grab.
For quick verification I use a simulator.
snort, yeah i forgot that i used simulator before hand. but simulator cant replicate real life, and not every part available in simulator. but thats off topic. btw i usually go perfboard when i want more permanent (working) circuit that i dont bother send to pcb house to make, for one off self hobby use. if we want argue most reliable circuit, real pcb is the way, but then its off topic again.cheers ;)
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline noisyee

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Re: What is the best way to test a circuit design with surface mount parts?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2022, 01:26:29 am »
When I was in school, I used that kind of PCB SMD to DIP adapters a lot. They worked fine, OK, in most situations.
In other situations, like Op amps with more than tens of MHz GBW, or modern high-speed digital devices, they cause more problems than convenient. |O Many technics were developed to solve that problems, like soldering a solid copper plate under that adapter, flying decoupling capacitors over the chip and so on :palm: Chip sockets would perform even worse in those situations, and they are expensive too.
Now I'm almost done with that adapters since PCB manufacturing is so much cheaper and faster than the old days. As for simple prototype verification, you can buy or design some specialized circuit model boards,  like the Arduino and the TI DIYAMP-EVM. Breadboarding with them are much better than with a universal SMD to DIP adapter.
https://www.ti.com/tool/DIYAMP-EVM
And of course you can make some home-made PCB, the only problem is they requiring some chemicals or CNC machines.
 


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