Author Topic: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter  (Read 9298 times)

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Offline MiroS

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2023, 08:23:53 am »
I do not say it does not work. It works. But will it work next year? Probably.

My AN870 died by laying on the shel.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2023, 08:24:01 am »
FWIW, my own philosophy is not to buy the cheapest I can find, but to buy the best I can afford...

But then you have to define "best" - an impossible task!

That path doesn't lead to happiness.
 

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2023, 11:16:15 am »
FWIW, my own philosophy is not to buy the cheapest I can find, but to buy the best I can afford...

But then you have to define "best" - an impossible task!

That path doesn't lead to happiness.

Not at all, it merely leads to a large collection of TE!   :-DD

In context, it means the best quality (in terms of performance, construction and warranty) in a device that meets the task criteria.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2023, 11:24:29 am »
In context, it means the best quality (in terms of performance, construction and warranty) in a device that meets the task criteria.

So now you have to define "the task".
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2023, 12:59:55 pm »
The data is literal proof in print that a "meter actually reads to 10X its spec".  Also, it has the temperature at which the calibration data was taken, so you can match that environment.

The data is proof that the meter did read certain, specific values on that day, under the specific conditions stated and to within the uncertainty of the test stimulus, provided that is provided and traceable.

That calibration data, combined with the manufacturers stated specifications and calibration interval, gives you a certain level of assurance (perhaps 95% or 99%) that the same meter will read all values within its range of measurement to within the stated uncertainties under all conditions listed (the typical +/-5C being most important, but others like RH, EF and altitude may matter some too) for the duration of the calibration interval.

Those are two very different statements.  I can take a Richmeter or Aneng and connect it to a standard or calibrator and verify that it reads 10.000V exactly for a 10V reference.  I can even write down the temperature and make a little chart.  But if I take it for a 50-mile drive out in the mountains and while testing some equipment (indoors, room temperature) I take a measurement of 7.492V, what is my confidence level that this reading is accurate to within a certain amount, say 6 counts?  The answer is that while there is a good chance it might be right, you don't really know since the manufacturer 'specs' don't give you any idea.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline miegapeleTopic starter

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #30 on: July 13, 2023, 03:31:56 pm »
The devil is in the details.  A stated 0.02% 'basic DC accuracy' is not a complete spec.
I'm very well aware of that, but that is how data is usually presented everywhere, including Fluke website

I am rather on conservative end when it comes to datasheet performance. While my old APPA 72 has "only 0.5%" is it far more stable than cheap chinese no-brand multimeter which drifts with battery depleting.
No reasonable multimeter with 0.0X% spec will drift with battery voltage. Only the king of multimeters, that is DT830 is allowed to do that.

Most magic question for me is what hobbyst application calls for 0.03% accuracy and how to validate this accuracy in hobby environment?
Simple, It's called "I want". Actually 99% of the forum discussions here is based on precisely that application.

I appriciate AN870 declared accuracy, yet I do not trust it too much in long term...
Any references to that? Other posted provided evidence that it's fine.


2) What manufacturer? https://anengmultimeter.com/ Sells clothing... Aliexpress shop?
Manufacturer is irrelevant, unless you buy your Fluke for status, that is.


3) Reference is only one thing among many responsible for accuracy. None is particularly recognizable or look stable


Reference is probably most important thing still, look at any teardown Dave does, reference always gets lots of attention. And also how do you determined that its not stable?


 Is it resistant to radio interference? Rather not.

Why this matters? I'm not sure that's common design criteria for multimers.



1) Manufacturer does not provide anything remotly similar to proper specifications. What is long term drift? Nobody knows.

Whats long term drift on Fluke? I doubt anybody knows either.

But if I take it for a 50-mile drive out in the mountains and while testing some equipment (indoors, room temperature) I take a measurement of 7.492V, what is my confidence level that this reading is accurate to within a certain amount, say 6 counts?
What kind of guarantee Fluke provides here? Do they spec their multimeter for altitude?

 

Offline miegapeleTopic starter

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #31 on: July 13, 2023, 03:33:35 pm »
Thank you all foe great advice.
I guess I need to start saving money to buy Brymen for Christmas  ;)
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #32 on: July 13, 2023, 03:54:16 pm »
So the conclusions of this thread to get an inexpensive multimeter with high basic accuracy (0.05% or better) as specified/claimed by the manufacturer seem to boil down to:

1. the best you can do for basic accuracy in a 50-ish EUR/USD meter is 0.05%

2. if you want 0.02 - 0.03% basic accuracy, you will need to move to a 150-200-ish EUR/USD price range and likely a Brymen BM78x, BM85x, or BM86x

(of course this is a simplistic analysis that ignores how accurate the manufacturers claims are, the stability of the meter's accuracy, the number of counts involved in the accuracy, etc)
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #33 on: July 13, 2023, 04:18:53 pm »
What kind of guarantee Fluke provides here? Do they spec their multimeter for altitude?

They do spec for altitude and a lot of other things.  In this case for a 289, as long as the indoor temp is between 18 and 28C, the RH is less than 90% and the alititude is under 3000M, they guarantee that a voltage of 7.492 will result in a reading between 7.488 and 7.496V, or conversely that a reading of 7.492 indicates an actual voltage from 7.488 to 7.496. 

But this meter (the Fluke 289) would not meet your specified goal of having an 'advertised accuracy' of 0.02%.  You can buy a Brymen 869S which does have an advertised "DC basic accuracy" of 0.02%, but alas on the 50V range it is 0.03% + 2 counts and is only specified to 2000M altitude and 80%RH.  A strong contender, but not the winner.  :)

Quote
Reference is probably most important thing still, look at any teardown Dave does, reference always gets lots of attention. And also how do you determined that its not stable?

Of course the reference is critical, but it is not the hardest or most expensive component to optimize.  The thing that distinguishes the excellent from the average is the ability to produce (or source) high-quality resistors.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2023, 04:22:17 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2023, 05:09:46 pm »
In context, it means the best quality (in terms of performance, construction and warranty) in a device that meets the task criteria.

So now you have to define "the task".

That's the job of whoever is buying the meter. I can't define it for someone else.
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2023, 05:17:59 pm »
I have a good number of meters and none has 0.02% basic accuracy specs. The best I have are the Fluke 287 and 289 which only get 0.025%. The 189 is the same. The 87V is only 0.05%. And none is cheap so I don't know how to get 0.02% cheap.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2023, 05:31:58 am »
I have a good number of meters and none has 0.02% basic accuracy specs. The best I have are the Fluke 287 and 289 which only get 0.025%. The 189 is the same. The 87V is only 0.05%. And none is cheap so I don't know how to get 0.02% cheap.

Get one of these instead:  :)



They're a fraction of the price of any of those others you listed.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 05:33:46 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2023, 05:34:52 am »
In context, it means the best quality (in terms of performance, construction and warranty) in a device that meets the task criteria.

So now you have to define "the task".

That's the job of whoever is buying the meter. I can't define it for someone else.

Aaaaand ... we've gone full circle.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/whats-the-cheapest-0-02-accuracy-handheld-meter/msg4958980/#msg4958980
 

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2023, 08:43:57 am »
In context, it means the best quality (in terms of performance, construction and warranty) in a device that meets the task criteria.

So now you have to define "the task".

That's the job of whoever is buying the meter. I can't define it for someone else.

Aaaaand ... we've gone full circle.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/whats-the-cheapest-0-02-accuracy-handheld-meter/msg4958980/#msg4958980

That's how these threads always go...



I have a good number of meters and none has 0.02% basic accuracy specs. The best I have are the Fluke 287 and 289 which only get 0.025%. The 189 is the same. The 87V is only 0.05%. And none is cheap so I don't know how to get 0.02% cheap.

Get one of these instead:  :)



They're a fraction of the price of any of those others you listed.


I would dispute the claim of Brymen meters being "cheap". I would describe them as "less expensive". Their reputation for random MCU failures is troubling; it's not going to be leading edge silicon fab technology, so why is it unreliable? Failure rates on something like that should be so low that you never hear about it.
Equally troubling is the apparent cost-cutting by Fluke on the plastics they use for their connectors in recent years; is it an in house or third party supplier issue? I don't know, but they need to sort it.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2023, 08:59:02 am »
Their reputation for random MCU failures is troubling; it's not going to be leading edge silicon fab technology, so why is it unreliable?

"Reputation"? I don't know where you're getting that from.

 

Offline Fungus

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2023, 09:31:11 am »
I have a good number of meters and none has 0.02% basic accuracy specs. The best I have are the Fluke 287 and 289 which only get 0.025%. The 189 is the same. The 87V is only 0.05%. And none is cheap so I don't know how to get 0.02% cheap.
Get one of these instead:  :)

I would dispute the claim of Brymen meters being "cheap". I would describe them as "less expensive".
[/quote]

Yes, but GP seemed to be saying that if none of his expensive Flukes could do it then they must not exist.

"Cheap" is a relative term. Brymens are definitely cheap compared to Flukes.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2023, 11:48:42 am »
The Metrawatt M248B (rebranded Prime) is 0.02%.   About $900.   Download the manual for details.  The meter has a lot of issues that I doubt were ever addressed and if you're in the USA, good luck dealing with them.

If I need that accuracy, I am using my bench meters.   

Offline bdunham7

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2023, 02:14:00 pm »
Get one of these instead:  :)



Quote
Yes, but GP seemed to be saying that if none of his expensive Flukes could do it then they must not exist.

Comparing small differences in basic specs between different brands without getting into all the details and conditions is not all that helpful, or at least not very precise.  However, I did notice that your BM859S seems to have significantly better DC specs (look at the higher ranges) than the BM869S.   Hmmmm.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 02:16:14 pm by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline CosteC

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2023, 02:43:01 pm »
I am puzzled by whole this discussion focusing purely on DCV accuracy. Simplest of all. Long time ago I needed to measure AC current of 400 A 50 Hz with better than 0.5% accuracy. Seems not a lot, but I am pretty sure none of instruments above cannot do it, despite 0.02% "astonishing" accuracy...

What I wanted to say: DCV accuracy is not all that matters.  >:D
 
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Offline alm

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2023, 02:55:50 pm »
What I wanted to say: DCV accuracy is not all that matters.  >:D
True. While for good meters usually the more accurate meters have improved accuracy across the board, you should always check the specification for the specific functions, ranges and in the case of AC frequency that are important for you rather than relying on banner basic accuracy specs.

Offline miegapeleTopic starter

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2023, 03:29:02 pm »
I am puzzled by whole this discussion focusing purely on DCV accuracy. Simplest of all. Long time ago I needed to measure AC current of 400 A 50 Hz with better than 0.5% accuracy. Seems not a lot, but I am pretty sure none of instruments above cannot do it, despite 0.02% "astonishing" accuracy...

What I wanted to say: DCV accuracy is not all that matters.  >:D
Long time ago I also needed to measure dog weight, and none of the instruments here can do it, bummer. This is way of topic, but as far as I know, such currents usually are measured with external shunts, and any multimeter mentioned here would work.
 

Offline CosteC

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2023, 03:42:01 pm »
This is way of topic, but as far as I know, such currents usually are measured with external shunts, and any multimeter mentioned here would work.
Would it? Shunts rarely provide more than 100 mV. AN870 has 0.3%+3d on 1,9999 VAC range. This means 0.6% error + shunt error, 0.2% for good shunt.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2023, 04:07:20 pm »
Long time ago I also needed to measure dog weight, and none of the instruments here can do it, bummer. This is way of topic, but as far as I know, such currents usually are measured with external shunts, and any multimeter mentioned here would work.

CosteC made a good point but just didn't choose the best example to illustrate the issue. 

The Brymen 869S is touted as the cheaper (by 3-4X) alternative to the Fluke 289.  So imagine you need to measure 550VDC as precisely as possible--that's not "dog weight", it is something both meters are rated to do.  The 869S is a "0.02%" meter, better than the "0.025%" 289, right?  But the actual specified uncertainty for the Brymen for this measurement will be more than a volt, whereas for the 289 it will be about a third of that. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline miegapeleTopic starter

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2023, 04:21:39 pm »

CosteC made a good point but just didn't choose the best example to illustrate the issue. 

The Brymen 869S is touted as the cheaper (by 3-4X) alternative to the Fluke 289.  So imagine you need to measure 550VDC as precisely as possible--that's not "dog weight", it is something both meters are rated to do.  The 869S is a "0.02%" meter, better than the "0.025%" 289, right?  But the actual specified uncertainty for the Brymen for this measurement will be more than a volt, whereas for the 289 it will be about a third of that.
I disagree here, It's just cherry picking points for distraction. 400A is definitely not common. You can probably find some random spec where 0.03% Brymen is better than that 289. Does that mean anything? No.
 

Offline rfclown

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Re: What's the cheapest 0.02% accuracy handheld meter
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2023, 04:23:44 pm »
I appriciate AN870 declared accuracy, yet I do not trust it too much in long term...

Why not? There's not much inside one to go wrong.

It might have a worse tempco than a more expensive meter, or whatever, but I see no reason why it would go out of spec just because of the passage of time.

I assume you haven't owned a ANxxx meter. I have a couple. On mine the resistance readings vary wildly with battery contact resistance. To me, the specs mean nothing; they are cheap meters worth what you pay for. If I want a measurement I can trust, I'll use one of my Flukes or HPs. I personally don't have a need for a 0.02% accurate meter, but I do have a need for meters that give me reliable readings... which my ANxxx meters don't do.
 


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