Author Topic: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?  (Read 10873 times)

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Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2022, 05:38:28 pm »
As I'm not getting a bit older I also start to become more annoyed by noisy equipment. Typically I don't want to have equipment with fans on longer than strictly necessary.

Same here.  And this is particularly true if you're in a (home) office instead of a lab.  When there are 50 other sets of fans going in a lab, one more fan is not usually a big deal, but it's very noticeable / annoying when you're in an otherwise quiet environment. 
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Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2022, 05:43:01 pm »
So what lecory tried, but better and affordable. Reason is bench space, having to insulate between the user and the DUT, DUT being not really accessible. An evolution of todays tablet/portable scopes

First attempts are often disasters, but one has to give credit to the pioneer who invested time & money.

You can, however, have something similar.
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
2. Another is treating the scope just like an acquisition unit and use the integrated web server or the usb software, with you computer monitor as a big, hi-res screen. Preferably attached to a vesa arm by itself, so not to occupy bench space. On-screen-keyboard and just a mouse on the bench.
 

Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2022, 05:55:48 pm »
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rtb2004-vesa-mod/msg4222681/#msg4222681
I thought about that a lot. My only worry was (other than the warranty) that the plastic would break as time passes.

I probably should have said that the link was "for entertainment purposes only" :)  There may be other ways of adding a VESA mount to an RTB, but I'm pretty sure that none of these modifications will ever be officially sanctioned by R&S.  Sorry!

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Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2022, 06:05:08 pm »
I'm pretty sure that none of these modifications will ever be officially sanctioned by R&S. 

I vaguely suspected that.  ::)
 

Online tautech

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2022, 06:43:37 pm »
As a hobbyist and ham radio operator, I very much appreciate having access to instruments I could never, ever afford to buy with my own money.
Same. I remember ogling over electronic magazines 50 years ago wondering how I could ever afford one. That's when I discovered our school science lab had one, a Tek IIRC so I greased our science teacher to get to use it on personal projects at lunchtime.
Will never forget the look on his face when after checking the ripple on my 320V valve PSU when he found out the voltages I was fiddling with when aged 13.

Quote
That said, the thread was about where scopes and meters will be in 10 years, and I do feel fairly confident a lot of the "higher end" innovations will trickle down into the more (personally) affordable instruments.  I've been working in test and measurement for about 25 years now, and I'm perpetually amazed when I compare modern "entry level" instruments to "high end" instruments from a decade or two ago.
Just the last 10 years has been amazing !  :o
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Offline JPortici

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #55 on: October 25, 2022, 07:07:29 pm »
So what lecory tried, but better and affordable. Reason is bench space, having to insulate between the user and the DUT, DUT being not really accessible. An evolution of todays tablet/portable scopes

First attempts are often disasters, but one has to give credit to the pioneer who invested time & money.

You can, however, have something similar.
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
2. Another is treating the scope just like an acquisition unit and use the integrated web server or the usb software, with you computer monitor as a big, hi-res screen. Preferably attached to a vesa arm by itself, so not to occupy bench space. On-screen-keyboard and just a mouse on the bench.

Mind that i was just answering the question in the title thread, what i have in mind is nothing that is currently available on the market, nor something that i can cobble together, nor something i desperately want

you do seem to have an answer for everything >:D is this why you're unsatisfied by the current scope market?
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2022, 07:45:04 pm »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.

If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.

Maybe somebody could invent one to save us from having to drill holes in our equipment.


 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2022, 07:47:31 pm »
"I couldn't find the oscilloscope of my dreams, so I built it myself." - Howard Vollum
 
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2022, 07:51:06 pm »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.
Go on Amazon or Aliexpress. You'll find dozens.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online mawyatt

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2022, 08:13:07 pm »
Just the last 10 years has been amazing !  :o

Maybe we'll see some new type ADCs utilized in DSOs within the next decade, something along the lines of simultaneous time and amplitude waveform quantization like the Non-Uniform Sampling concepts that were being developed before we retired a few years ago, where the actual input signal waveform dictates various ADC characteristics including post ADC quantization anti-aliasing filtering!!

Must admit, didn't expect as good a performer as the SDS2000X+ we acquired a few years ago as our first out-of-pocket DSO, remarkable instrument for the $ IMO!!

Anyway, looking forward to the future!!

Best,
Curiosity killed the cat, also depleted my wallet!
~Wyatt Labs by Mike~
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2022, 10:02:11 pm »
So, there is no viable scope for a student/hobbyst.

You missed the GW-Insteks in your roast.  :popcorn:
 

Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2022, 10:18:53 pm »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.
Go on Amazon or Aliexpress. You'll find dozens.

Indeed. But it's not the same thing.
A scope directly screwed to a vesa arm will be stable. On a shelf attached to a vesa arm, it won't.
That's probably why that RTB2000 user drilled his scope enclosure.
 

Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2022, 10:20:35 pm »
So, there is no viable scope for a student/hobbyst.

You missed the GW-Insteks in your roast.  :popcorn:

Underspecced for their price. Like they were a-brand. But they aren't.  ^-^

Plus, they lack modern features more often than not.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 10:28:21 pm by balnazzar »
 

Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2022, 10:27:27 pm »
you do seem to have an answer for everything >:D is this why you're unsatisfied by the current scope market?

Alas, not for everything.
But you got the point nonetheless: I have a very clear idea about what I'd like to see implemented, and no scope within typical hobbyst/student pocket's range truly delivers all the package. Then, I can just think about workarounds.

It doesn't help that the manufacturers do practice customer segmentation so enthusiastically.
 

Online tautech

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2022, 10:29:41 pm »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.
Go on Amazon or Aliexpress. You'll find dozens.

Indeed. But it's not the same thing.
A scope directly screwed to a vesa arm will be stable. On a shelf attached to a vesa arm, it won't.
That's probably why that RTB2000 user drilled his scope enclosure.
No it's not but on a VESA arm with a shelf and zip tied down it ain't going anywhere.
Sure we can add the perfect fastening solution but the cost goes up when a simple fix will be perfectly adequate. Why make things harder than they need be ?  :-//
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Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2022, 10:39:26 pm »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.
If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.
Go on Amazon or Aliexpress. You'll find dozens.

Indeed. But it's not the same thing.
A scope directly screwed to a vesa arm will be stable. On a shelf attached to a vesa arm, it won't.
That's probably why that RTB2000 user drilled his scope enclosure.
No it's not but on a VESA arm with a shelf and zip tied down it ain't going anywhere.
Sure we can add the perfect fastening solution but the cost goes up when a simple fix will be perfectly adequate. Why make things harder than they need be ?  :-//

Yes and no.

If you use zip ties you have to use quite a few of them to secure the scope, or it will wobble and recoil every time you press a button. It'll be ugly, but not only that. Since the zip ties will be plastic and the scope chassis plastic all the same, you got very low friction, and consequently you have to tighten the ties a lot. Not sure they'll not gnaw dents into the chassis as time passes. Then you have to bring the scope around every now and then. So, untie and tie back down. With the vesa holes, it's just 4 screws to unscrew.
 
« Last Edit: October 25, 2022, 10:42:39 pm by balnazzar »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #66 on: October 26, 2022, 12:14:35 am »
But you got the point nonetheless: I have a very clear idea about what I'd like to see implemented, and no scope within typical hobbyst/student pocket's range truly delivers all the package.
You are wrong here. There is no oscilloscope out there that is simply perfect. You'd need to spend tens of millions of $US dollars to have the perfect oscilloscope developed. Mere mortals end up buying several oscilloscopes; each suitable for a range of tasks. If you dig deeper you'll see that there is a surprising gap between the abilities of oscilloscopes. Like every manufacturer has it's own idea about what is really important.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2022, 12:16:32 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline balnazzar

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #67 on: October 26, 2022, 01:23:58 am »
But you got the point nonetheless: I have a very clear idea about what I'd like to see implemented, and no scope within typical hobbyst/student pocket's range truly delivers all the package.
You are wrong here. There is no oscilloscope out there that is simply perfect. You'd need to spend tens of millions of $US dollars to have the perfect oscilloscope developed. Mere mortals end up buying several oscilloscopes; each suitable for a range of tasks. If you dig deeper you'll see that there is a surprising gap between the abilities of oscilloscopes. Like every manufacturer has it's own idea about what is really important.

That's exactly what leaves me surprised. They could easily manufacture not the perfect oscilloscope, but almost, for each price range. Of course I cannot demand to buy a 10 GHz oscilloscope with my money. But.. I mean, a noisy fan maybe doesn't bother all the potential customers, but surely bothers some, while a silent fan will make everyone happy. Same for a matte screen. For a vesa mount. And those are all things that cost near to nothing.

Other stuff might be costly, you'd argue. For example, a clean, non-noisy front end. But as we have shown before, the Owon 1022i was able to see quite clearly a 2 mVpp signal that for the MSO5000 was just random noise, or close to.
And that's a scope going by 119 eur vat included. It requires, I don't know, 20$ to manufacture it?

My whole point here is that the end users seem to have that philosophy of being happy with what falls from the sky, no matter how flawed it is. "Falls" here is a figure of speech, since these products are not cheap.
If users were a bit more demanding, the manufacturers would adjust, as our friend from R&S honestly told us. More to the point, he told us that when a certain number of customers make the manufacturer aware of design flaws, they put some real effort into adressing them.
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #68 on: October 26, 2022, 03:16:59 am »
1. One possibility is indeed having your scope attached to a vesa arm. Tek 2 or MXO4, as said, or just drill the holes by yourself.

If only there were VESA-like arms with little shelves on them.

Maybe somebody could invent one to save us from having to drill holes in our equipment.



Mesa tink dat arm cos more dan mesa scope!  Mesa oberly sad. :-[
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #69 on: October 26, 2022, 06:56:24 am »
Mesa tink dat arm cos more dan mesa scope!  Mesa oberly sad. :-[

The forum members advised me that it was a good investment. People should always buy the best arm possible, just in case they might need it one day.
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #70 on: October 26, 2022, 12:58:51 pm »
I am not sure if it was mentioned, but I think that more and more popular oscilloscopes will start to break beyond the 8-bit limit of the current offers as ADCs decrease in price.

(from my hobbyist point of view, that would be the most interesting feature that would make me consider moving away from my beloved Rigol DS4014).

As for DMMs, I think the race to the bottom will continue and the form factor changes will bring interesting developments for the handhelds. I think that remote connectivity will continue to improve (BT solutions nowadays are a bit iffy, TBH).
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2022, 01:04:07 pm »
I am not sure if it was mentioned, but I think that more and more popular oscilloscopes will start to break beyond the 8-bit limit of the current offers as ADCs decrease in price.

Indeed already mentioned, and can be seen already. Take the new Rigol 12bit scope for 700 bucks excluding vat.

Online 2N3055

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #72 on: October 26, 2022, 01:06:59 pm »
I am not sure if it was mentioned, but I think that more and more popular oscilloscopes will start to break beyond the 8-bit limit of the current offers as ADCs decrease in price.

Indeed already mentioned, and can be seen already. Take the new Rigol 12bit scope for 700 bucks excluding vat.

It is 999 € excluding VAT. With VAT it is almost 1200€
https://rigolshop.eu/hdo1074.html
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Offline pcprogrammer

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #73 on: October 26, 2022, 01:10:38 pm »
The two channel is cheaper :)

Online 2N3055

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Re: Where will Oscilloscopes and DMM's be in 10yrs ?
« Reply #74 on: October 26, 2022, 01:21:53 pm »
The two channel is cheaper :)

I don't think anybody should buy 2 ch scope anymore.. You cannot even look at the SPI bus signals without it..
Especially that price difference is not that great.
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