EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: remixed123 on January 18, 2014, 05:57:11 pm
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I'm about to embark on some SPI programming and would like to have a Logic Analyzer to help me with the process.
I've noticed that the Saleae seems to be the one that most people recommend, due to its great software. I also like that it has Macintosh software.
There are 2 versions available, the Logic and the Logic16. Which one do I need?
The main difference is the number of channels, which I do not care about. 8 channels is more than enough for what I am doing.
The other main difference is this:-
Logic works with 3.3V and 5V logic levels
Logic16 works with any logic level from 1.8V to 5V
I am working with an ARM Cortex M4F MCU, I am wondering if I need the 1.8v support?
I have looked at the Data Sheet but have been unable to determine what level the SPI works with the Tiva C MCU - http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tm4c123gh6pm.pdf (http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tm4c123gh6pm.pdf) (TI call SPI - Synchronous Serial Interface (SSI))
So which one do I need. Logic or Logic16?
Glenn.
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Chapter 24.3 (page 1355): Vdd supply voltage: 3.3V. Generally, GPIOs and peripherals like SPI in MCUs are working at digital supply voltage so you'll be dealing with 3.3V logic there. So like Wilfred said, you'll be fine with the smaller Logic. Personally, I've opted for Logic16 and it proved handy when I was debugging some parallel LCD. Also, keep in mind you often want to monitor several things at once, e.g. SPI bus and debugging messages on UART or both stimuli and the device's response to them.
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Thanks Guys,
I am using it for a specific purpose, the device I am developing will have 12v in close proximity to a single SPI channel (same cable)....I am basically driving individually addressable LEDS.
So regarding protection, the following is stated in the Logic specifications:-
Over-voltage protection to +/- 15V. Not meant for continuous operation outside -0.5V to 5.25V.
I am terrible at accidentally selecting the wrong wire and frying things. Since I am working with 12v, this should be ok if I stuff up?
Otherwise the Logic 16 provides this level of protection.
Over-voltage protection to +/- 50V. Not meant for continuous operation outside -0.9V to 6V.
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You'll be fine.
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I am terrible at accidentally selecting the wrong wire and frying things
You may want look at one of those
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400334639418?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/400334639418?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)
Add to your board a 9 pin header with key signals so you don't need to worry each time about connecting the wires in the right order.
As for comparability with your voltage levels, Amazon has it as Prime product, if it does not work you can return.
I went with the 8 version, mostly for serial protocols and it works great.
BTW, Saleae are very responsive. If you have specific questions contact them.
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have you considered the clones?
this site gives some interesting details on them:
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware)
also if you look at ebay you can pick up a clone from hong kong for about $10
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-24M-8CH-24MHz-Saleae-Logic-Analyser-USB-Cable-10Pc-DuPont-Cable-For-ARM-FPGA-/251414072718?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a89724d8e&_uhb=1 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-24M-8CH-24MHz-Saleae-Logic-Analyser-USB-Cable-10Pc-DuPont-Cable-For-ARM-FPGA-/251414072718?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a89724d8e&_uhb=1)
or if you want it local its about is just over double the cost at about $23
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24Mhz-8-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Saleae-Logic-Compatible-/221316065573?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3387772925&_uhb=1 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24Mhz-8-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Saleae-Logic-Compatible-/221316065573?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3387772925&_uhb=1)
still way cheaper then buying a Saleae branded logic Analyser at about $160AU give or take and the clones work with the software anyway as they are the same hardware inside.
just my two cents anyway
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:palm:
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Lol - I still LOVE how this one icon says it all... :palm:
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have you considered the clones?
this site gives some interesting details on them:
http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware)
also if you look at ebay you can pick up a clone from hong kong for about $10
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-24M-8CH-24MHz-Saleae-Logic-Analyser-USB-Cable-10Pc-DuPont-Cable-For-ARM-FPGA-/251414072718?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a89724d8e&_uhb=1 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/USB-24M-8CH-24MHz-Saleae-Logic-Analyser-USB-Cable-10Pc-DuPont-Cable-For-ARM-FPGA-/251414072718?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3a89724d8e&_uhb=1)
or if you want it local its about is just over double the cost at about $23
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24Mhz-8-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Saleae-Logic-Compatible-/221316065573?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3387772925&_uhb=1 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/24Mhz-8-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-Saleae-Logic-Compatible-/221316065573?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item3387772925&_uhb=1)
still way cheaper then buying a Saleae branded logic Analyser at about $160AU give or take and the clones work with the software anyway as they are the same hardware inside.
just my two cents anyway
With Sigrok you can also get 16 channels on the clones that aren't in a Saleae-style case but just advertised as "FX2LP development board".
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Lol - I still LOVE how this one icon says it all... :palm:
Are the clones illegal in some way?
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Not really....(well, I assume the are stealing the firmware?) But......
.....using the Saleae software with the clones is considered stealing.
http://www.saleae.com/counterfeit (http://www.saleae.com/counterfeit)
Plus, some of the clones I've seen even are labeled as "saleae" That's a huge no-no.
counterfit
(http://www.ba0sh1.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Salea-Logic-Clone.jpg)
real
(http://www.openlighting.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Saleae-logic.jpg)
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I own a saleae myself, and i would agree that using the same naming as illegal etc however and bear in mind i'm probably wrong in my assumption but shouldn't that have done a better job of preventing such counterfeiting as its just a few bytes in the eprom that designate the VID i think. i had no problem paying for their hardware as come on it looks sleek and sits on my desk quite nicely next to my macintosh. as i'm all for supporting the buying of hardware that has had lots of time and money put into development. i only mentioned the clones to kind of point out that the hardware used is pretty generic and its in fact the software that the end user is really buying. i probably should have thought before i posted that, apologies guys
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If you don't ABSOLUTELY need the 16 channels or higher speed, I'd strongly reccomend the plain logic.
I have a genuine logic16, and a clone logic, and I really just use the clone. The logic16 has (and still has, last I checked) channel transposition issues. Basically, the logic16 only has options to sample odd-numbers of channels (3, 5, 9, 16). Since USB is byte oriented, this means the samples are packed into the bitstream.
Now, this would be fine if USB were perfect or the application wasn't really pushing the limits of USB, but it's not. The logic doesn't seem to ever send synchronization packets or verify receipt (I *thought* USB did this internally, but apparently not). In any event, after a little while of use, suddenly the channel 1 data is reading out on channel 2, 2 is on 3, etc... It's only fixed by manually changing the channel number or disconnecting/reconnecting.
Saleae has been supposedly fixing this issue for the last several releases. It hasn't actually fixed it yet.
Since the logic is 8 channels, it doesn't pack the acquired data into the USB bitstream, so it doesn't have the issue.
Note that I'm mostly guessing about the internal causes, but in any event, the logic16 can't maintain it's channel relationship long enough to be useful. It's basically sat in a drawer since shortly after I bought it, and the chineese knockoff has done all the work.
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They would certainly like it to be illegal, but there's really not much difference between that and e.g. using 3rd-party cartridges in your printer... if they think the software is really worth that much (I don't) then they shouldn't be giving it away for free download on their site. They don't own the VID:PID either, according to USB-IF.
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The Logic16 is also up to 4 times faster when you reduce the number of lines. When working with Cortex M4 this could be quite important.
I use the Logic( 8 ) a lot with simular processors, and found it was a bit to slow sometimes.
The logic16 can even be to slow when working with cortex M4.
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if they think the software is really worth that much (I don't) then they shouldn't be giving it away for free
(http://i.stack.imgur.com/jiFfM.jpg)
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if they think the software is really worth that much (I don't) then they shouldn't be giving it away for free
They're not. There software only works with the Saleae hardware (save for perhaps some illegal clones) and you are paying dearly for that hardware. Actually, the software is the only real reason to even consider the Saleae products.
I would go with the Logic16 personally; however, Saleae has announced a new product which will be released this year, so if you can, you may want to wait a little while.
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It's good karma to buy the original. 8 vs 16 I'm sure 8 is fine especially considering the price difference. Personally if I was getting a tool for spi development, I would go for the Totql Phase Aardvark instead because it can also talk spi not just listen. The logic devices are more general purpose as listening devices
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Total Phase Aardvark looks interesting. Being able to talk SPI would be cool. Well actually I am not working with official SPI, so not sure if it would work with my setup??
I am not using the SPI clock, I am just using MOSI for basic manchester encoding. I am driving some intelligent lighting, from one SPI wire, timing is not sent to the chips in my lights, it just needs to be between a certain rate and encoding is performed through rising and falling edges. Well at least that it what I have been able to determine so far. I am new to this method, so that is why I need a Logic Analyzer, to help me work it all out!
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I should mention the LED driver chips I am working with have a data transfer range of 100Kbps-1Mbps
So I don't need an LA that is particularly special, even though my MCU is 80Mhz.
However, something that would enable me to create a parser that then describes what a set of bits means would be cool. Are there any such tools about? Even ones that could use the exported data from Logic.
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Regarding the original Saleae Logic vs. clones, moral concerns aside (as these were mentioned already), I believe I read somewhere that they're exploiting some borderline EEPROM chip timing behavior as a means of copy protection. So the knockoffs may or may not work with new Saleae software releases in the future. But this might just as well not be true at all so don't quote me on this.
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Buy one of the Saleae ones you'll feel better. Think of it that your paying for the great software and the development of what ever else the fantastic small company does in the future not just the hardware which is well designed and something they stand behind. I've used ultra high end tektronix and hp logic analyzers for my day job and their software is no where near as easy to use as the Saleae software. Not to mention lugging around, well rolling around, the very heavy high end gear.
If companies like Saleae don't survive and thrive our hobbies will suffer.
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I can't help but mention the OLS, just in case you don't know about it.
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer)
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I can't help but mention the OLS, just in case you don't know about it.
http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/Open_Bench_Logic_Sniffer)
Thank you for that. I have nothing against Saleae the software is slick but the triggering sucks. 50 bucks is a good price and worth a try.
Do you have one?
Here is what I read, the hardware looks good value for money.
http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/02/25/prototype-open-logic-sniffer-logic-analyzer-2/ (http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/02/25/prototype-open-logic-sniffer-logic-analyzer-2/)
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I have nothing against Saleae the software is slick but the triggering sucks.
As it streams directly to computer, you can save as much data as you want. I generally just stick it up to 10B samples, start sampling, ensure that the hardware does whatever I'm testing for, and then stop sampling.
The software is good enough that you can easily flick between tens of megabytes of UART data without a problem.
They could do with more complex triggering, and better in-decode search, but it isn't a dealbreaker.
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if they think the software is really worth that much (I don't) then they shouldn't be giving it away for free
They're not. There software only works with the Saleae hardware (save for perhaps some illegal clones) and you are paying dearly for that hardware. Actually, the software is the only real reason to even consider the Saleae products.
:-DD The (official) hardware is worth maybe $20 at most, the reason why the clones are so cheap and work just as well is because the hardware is so simple - it's a USB MCU with its GPIOs broken out.
If companies like Saleae don't survive and thrive our hobbies will suffer.
Don't make it seem like Saleae revolutionised everything, the idea of using a USB MCU as a logic analyser has been around ever since USB MCUs came out - the Chinese were building ones with Atmel's USB 8051s long before Saleae and USBee (from which you could argue Saleae copied the hardware from). I agree with Dave's review (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-436-saleae-usb-logic-analyser-review-teardown) on this.
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Dave was not very kind in his review but he was not wrong.
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http://www.pctestinstruments.com/ (http://www.pctestinstruments.com/)
I haven't compared the saleae to this one but on the face of it for an extra 90 bucks you seem to get a lot more channels and faster sampling... anyone tried it?
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Thank you for that. I have nothing against Saleae the software is slick but the triggering sucks. 50 bucks is a good price and worth a try.
Do you have one?
I do have one and I'm very happy with it. Before I got it I went and tried the software for several LAs and I have to say that I wasn't impressed with any of them.
One of the reasons I eventually went for the OLS was because I could write my own software easily (which I did).
Now... the biggest downfall of the OLS is its small memory (altho it's enough for most tasks), but it seems there are several ports of the firmware for hardware with a lot more memory (up to 64Mb), which makes them a good alternative.
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:-DD The (official) hardware is worth maybe $20 at most, the reason why the clones are so cheap and work just as well is because the hardware is so simple - it's a USB MCU with its GPIOs broken out.
This is valid for the basic 8-channel model only. Logic16 has an FPGA added.
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http://www.pctestinstruments.com/ (http://www.pctestinstruments.com/)
I haven't compared the saleae to this one but on the face of it for an extra 90 bucks you seem to get a lot more channels and faster sampling... anyone tried it?
I have one of these at work (yes, I have a saleae of my own at home).
It's nice, the software is *excellent*, but it has crap sample depth.
It does sample compression, but if you need to log a complex or long SPI transaction, you're SOL. I've had a few situations where I needed to sniff a long GPS status packet (100+ bytes), and I ran out of memory, even with only two channels on, and the compression enabled.
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My fantasy logic analyzer is pretty much the saleae hardware with the Logicport software.
I've tried the USBee LAs, and couldn't get past the terrible software design. They're supposedly quite powerful internally, but their software feels like it hasn't updated since DOS.
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Do any of the Saleae devices take an external clock (state mode)?
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I'm not certain that the Aardvark would like the Manchester coded stream that you are using, it's not really spi but I can see where a spi periph could be used to drive the signal, don't think one could receive this without a clock.
At any rate this thread has a lot of opinion. Personally I don't see anything wrong with charging $150 for something that may have COGS of $20. Software development isn't cheap and neither is growing a business and supporting customers.
Logic 8 is probably the tool that I would use for this particular job.
About state based triggers on logic 8, I don't think that is a feature but also haven't used the software for a few years.
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...bear in mind i'm probably wrong in my assumption but shouldn't that [sic] have done a better job of preventing such counterfeiting as its just a few bytes in the eprom that designate the VID i think.
You're right of course. It's all Saleae's fault, for not locking it up tighter than they did. They should have spent more time making it hack-proof, rather than developing more protocol decoders.
I'm sure there's no correlation between the last production software release (1.1.15) of Oct/2011 and the next beta (1.1.18) of Nov/2013 being 2 years apart. ::)
i only mentioned the clones to kind of point out that the hardware used is pretty generic and its in fact the software that the end user is really buying.
Uh, actually, you didn't. You gave hardware pricing information, two explicit links to where they could be directly purchased, and concluded with:
"...still way cheaper then [sic] buying a Saleae branded logic Analyser at about $160AU give or take and the clones work with the software anyway as they are the same hardware inside."
You were acting at least as a facilitator, if not as an advocate. I missed the part where you pointed out that the end user was buying any software. :-//
i probably should have thought before i posted that
I'd agree with you there. At least you realized it, after the fact.
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I should mention the LED driver chips I am working with have a data transfer range of 100Kbps-1Mbps
So I don't need an LA that is particularly special, even though my MCU is 80Mhz.
This is common for many embedded systems and microcontroller projects. The MCU is pretty fast, but it's all internal. The external comm ports are much slower and more manageable.
However, something that would enable me to create a parser that then describes what a set of bits means would be cool. Are there any such tools about? Even ones that could use the exported data from Logic.
Saleae has an SDK, which would allow you to create your own decoder, and then display the results right in Logic8. It's been a while since I looked, but I suspect they even have some examples you could start working from and modify to suit your needs.
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If companies like Saleae don't survive and thrive our hobbies will suffer.
Don't make it seem like Saleae revolutionised everything, the idea of using a USB MCU as a logic analyser has been around ever since USB MCUs came out - the Chinese were building ones with Atmel's USB 8051s long before Saleae and USBee...
Yes, and they did so well due to the great quality of their software. :-DD What was that Chinese LA software, BTW, and where can you get it now?
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http://www.pctestinstruments.com/ (http://www.pctestinstruments.com/)
I haven't compared the saleae to this one but on the face of it for an extra 90 bucks you seem to get a lot more channels and faster sampling... anyone tried it?
It's a great unit, but it makes a very different set of tradeoffs. It adds powerful triggering and speed, in exchange for deep memory captures.
The LogicPort handles speeds up to 500 MHz, far beyond anything the simple USB streamers can dream of. Plus it can be externally clocked form the circuit under test (synchronous), up to 200 MHz. But it has only a 2K sample memory... potentially expanded a lot by the RLE compression implemented in hardware. This is especially useful when troubleshooting comms, because it's low density, with lots of dead space between bytes or packets. The LogicPort turns that idle space into a single sample (+an occurrence count).
The Logic16 trades off bus width to squeeze out more speed than the Logic8, but it's still severely constrained by the USB2 transfer rate.
The cool thing about the streamers, as has been mentioned, is that you don't have to spend a lot of time figuring out what to trigger on, and setting the triggers up. You just start a grab, burst some traffic, and stop. You can have a huge amount of data to look through, which is both a blessing and a curse. The curse would be finding instances of interest, and unfortunately that's where the Saleae streamer falls down. Whereas the USBee-SX streamer provides excellent search and locate features in its software. It also provides a time-stamped packet List view, and simpler roll-your-own decoders.
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Do any of the Saleae devices take an external clock (state mode)?
No. That's something I asked their devs about, years ago, when they first intro'd the product. They never got around to it. And apparently they didn't consider it important for the Logic16 either.
State Mode sampling can reduce data capture requirements significantly, but few vendors seen to care. PCInstruments (LogicPort) is one that does.
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I've tried the USBee LAs, and couldn't get past the terrible software design. They're supposedly quite powerful internally, but their software feels like it hasn't updated since DOS.
Really? I'm quite surprised to hear you say that. I know they did have an older bundle of disjoint tools, that were plain-jane. But that was many years ago. I didn't spend much time with those, and probably wouldn't (unless I wanted to use the output Generator capability).
But their USB Suite seemed pretty impressive to me. Definitely nothing DOS-like. :-// That's been around for probably the last 5 years or so. Though not originally with the Event List view on the side.
(http://www.usbee.com/suite600.gif)
It comes with free inline decoders for USB, I2C, SPI, Async, 1-Wire, CAN, I2S, SM Bus, PS/2, Sync Serial, Parallel and NEC IR. And a Custom Decoder development kit that uses a macro language, so you don't have to be a programmer.
One thing I'd mention w.r.t. previous questions is that while the USBee SX (their only really affordable model, IMO) does have an External CLK input, which could be used for State Mode, they never incorporated support into their Suite to utilize it. :(
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I'm hoping this will be a good alternative:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamsourcelab/dslogic-multifunction-instruments-for-everyone (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamsourcelab/dslogic-multifunction-instruments-for-everyone)
Probably similar to OLS, but lot of memory, and spartan6 fpga.
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One thing I'd mention w.r.t. previous questions is that while the USBee SX (their only really affordable model, IMO) does have an External CLK input, which could be used for State Mode, they never incorporated support into their Suite to utilize it. :(
Do not know for the other USBee models, but AX lets you to use an external clock when sampling (it is an external utility, not the USBee Suite):
see on the lower-right part of the picture.
________________
P.S.: I downloaded the SX software and even SX support acquisition with an external clock
BTW, it is very easy to write a protocol decoder with the USBee software: it took me not more than an hour to write an IR remote decoder.
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I'm hoping this will be a good alternative:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamsourcelab/dslogic-multifunction-instruments-for-everyone (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dreamsourcelab/dslogic-multifunction-instruments-for-everyone)
Probably similar to OLS, but lot of memory, and spartan6 fpga.
Nice! The HW looks quite similar to http://sigrok.org/wiki/Hantek_4032L (http://sigrok.org/wiki/Hantek_4032L)
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One thing I'd mention w.r.t. previous questions is that while the USBee SX (their only really affordable model, IMO) does have an External CLK input, which could be used for State Mode, they never incorporated support into their Suite to utilize it. :(
It's "fake clock" (done in software) - the SX is the same FX2LP-based design that's identical to the Saleae (http://sigrok.org/wiki/CWAV_USBee_SX) and all the clones. Ditto for the triggering.
P.S. I found the origins of the FX2-based logic analyser in a Chinese book about USB 2.0 from 2004 (http://www.amazon.cn/USB2-0%E5%8E%9F%E7%90%86%E4%B8%8E%E5%B7%A5%E7%A8%8B%E5%BC%80%E5%8F%91-%E7%8E%8B%E6%88%90%E5%84%92-%E6%9D%8E%E8%8B%B1%E4%BC%9F/dp/B00ACPCY7A); it appears to contain a lot of other applications of the FX2 such as a virtual parallel/serial port, a waveform generator, I2C intefaces, etc.
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It's "fake clock" (done in software) - the SX is the same FX2LP-based design that's identical to the Saleae (http://sigrok.org/wiki/CWAV_USBee_SX) and all the clones. Ditto for the triggering.
Sorry to contradict you, but I warmly suggest you to take a look at the following document: http://www.cypress.com/?docID=27095&dlm=1 (http://www.cypress.com/?docID=27095&dlm=1) (EZ-USB Technical Reference Manual) see chapters 9 & 10 (Asynchronous Slave Write/Read).
P.S.: In the USBee devices, the "input/output" clock is accessible on the connector. Please remember that you can use the USBee also as an OUTPUT device, not only input.
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You guys have really low standards when it comes to software. Fact of the matter is they're all junk compared to how much they cost.
You can't possibly defend any of them, or even say that the "good software" is what made them famous. No... it's crap and in some particular cases, flashy crap.
However, you are right not to encourage people to get the clones, because chances are the clones is what keeps the software from advancing (no incentive to update it).
That being said, most of the analyzers around will do the job, since usually you'll work with sub Mhz signals, or very little above that. It all comes down to the exceptional scenarios you might find yourself in and how often YOU come across them. For example if you'll be doing SPI at 25Mbps, you'll probably want a 200Msps+ analyzer. If you find yourself debugging super long streams of data, maybe a streamer (24Msps usually) might be what you're looking for. If you want both, you'll have to spend a bit more $$$.
In all the other cases, anything will do.
My suggestion is to figure out your requirements, high speed or long recording time? external trigger? external clock? Make a list of the analyzers that fit your needs, sort them by price and start testing software.
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Fact of the matter is they're all junk compared to how much they cost.
You do realize that's an opinion, and not "a fact". Right?
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Fact of the matter is they're all junk compared to how much they cost.
You do realize that's an opinion, and not "a fact". Right?
It would be an opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about, but I do. I wrote my own client for one of these LAs, spent about 1 month of my free time and the result is way better than everything else I tried. Better UX, decent navigation, decent search functionality, easy way for the end user to modify old parsers or write new ones, etc.
ALL WITHIN 1 MONTH AND ONLY WITH SPARE TIME.
I stopped working on that thing and I'm not developing it anymore because there's no incentive, no material gain, but if I was actually selling a product, things would have looked a lot differently.
So no, it's not an opinion when I know first hand what it takes to make a good LA and yout take into account the fact that they all had YEARS at their disposal.
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++ for jadew. I see forums flooded with "I've heard that Saleae's sw is the best!" buzz, but still don't see what is so-o-o differentiating in that sw. Nice looking, but definitely not "light years ahead" of, say, my 8 years old Janatek's sw (missing it's "zoom between cursors" feature on newer instruments).
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It would be an opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about, but I do. I wrote my own client for one of these LAs, spent about 1 month of my free time and the result is way better than everything else I tried. Better UX, decent navigation, decent search functionality, easy way for the end user to modify old parsers or write new ones, etc.
Any way to take a look at it? Just curiosity, but you can even donate your source code to the OSS community!
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It would be an opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about, but I do. I wrote my own client for one of these LAs, spent about 1 month of my free time and the result is way better than everything else I tried. Better UX, decent navigation, decent search functionality, easy way for the end user to modify old parsers or write new ones, etc.
Any way to take a look at it? Just curiosity, but you can even donate your source code to the OSS community!
Sure: http://dumb.ro/lafront/ (http://dumb.ro/lafront/)
I don't believe in opensource tho.
Edit: Some of the samples might have been saved with early versions of the program so you might have to reset the protocol settings for those samples if you see anything weird. Resetting it should be as simple as double clicking the protocol in the protocols view and clicking ok.
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Thanks! I will take a look, even if I have no OBLS
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I looked at the screens. First difference I see with Jawi's logic sniffer is multiple protocol decoding on the same timebase.
Are there other differences that jump out?
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I looked at the screens. First difference I see with Jawi's logic sniffer is multiple protocol decoding on the same timebase.
Are there other differences that jump out?
I'm not up to date with his client, but based on last time I used it (it's been a very long time): Search functionality, a direct link between decoded data and annotations (so you can click on data or annotation and the other one gets highlighted in the decoded view or in the diagram - Edit: you can also select data via the annotations by holding shift or ctrl down), any number of time measurements, under cursor measurements with logging, various measurements on selection, javascript protocol decoders, probably other stuff as well.
A notable one would be that Jawi's client supports other hardware as well and is cross platform while mine is Windows only and works only with the OLS - I didn't have any other hardware. His, also comes with a few more decoders out of the box I think.
Anyway, let's not hijack the OP's thread. I was just trying to make a point, which is that if you are going to pay hundreds of dollars for a piece of hardware that is worth $8, it's not unreasonable to expect extreme quality from the software, especially since this is always the strongest argument ("you are paying for the software as well").
The only way I can describe the currently available software for logic analyzers (from most companies) is either "junk", "they didn't go the extra mile" or "highly overpriced". Sadly this seems to apply all across the board when it comes to electronics, not just logic analyzers.
Anyway, I consider this an objective observation and not just an opinion.
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Is this a new Logic16 knockoff ?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Saleae16-Logic16-100M-16-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-For-ARM-FPGA-/111284999634?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e91a55d2 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Saleae16-Logic16-100M-16-Channel-Logic-Analyzer-For-ARM-FPGA-/111284999634?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19e91a55d2)
:box:
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expensive :) I bought the same for $8 or something on taobao last year, didnt test it yet but it looks decent inside.
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Nope, it have 16 inputs, and there is even an spartan inside it.
Can take pictures of it tomorrow.
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yes, for me it is, luckily I have a friend who live down there, so when someone is visiting I try to get some stash upp :)
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It would be an opinion if I didn't know what I was talking about, but I do. I wrote my own client for one of these LAs, spent about 1 month of my free time and the result is way better than everything else I tried. Better UX, decent navigation, decent search functionality, easy way for the end user to modify old parsers or write new ones, etc.
Your's looks quite impressive. Nice work!
The only way I can describe the currently available software for logic analyzers (from most companies) is either "junk", "they didn't go the extra mile" or "highly overpriced". Sadly this seems to apply all across the board when it comes to electronics, not just logic analyzers.
In that case, you apparently haven't seen the USBee Suite, from CWAV, which has all the capabilities you're criticizing companies for leaving out. It includes extensive protocol decoding, and even the ability to 'roll your own', in the base package. And their Pro version, and Packet Presenter, extends that even further.
Anyway, I consider this an objective observation and not just an opinion.
Well, you did say "most companies", so I probably can't argue with that. Most companies do fall well short of the mark. But if you're lumping USBee in with them, I would have to.
Perhaps you're categorizing them as "highly overpriced"? I got their SuitePro version when it was on sale for half price*, and it was worth every penny. And if you're going to actually use it for something more than playing around, I'd consider it a bargain at full price.
EDIT:
[*Actually, now that I think about it (it was quite a few years ago), I did pay full price for it. But then they had it on sale, and they gave me a credit to offset the sale discount. Which I thought was was pretty considerate, since they didn't have to.]
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Nope, it have 16 inputs, and there is even an spartan inside it.
Can take pictures of it tomorrow.
Yes, That would be nice to watch. Where did you get it for $8 ?
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The FPGA alone costs more than $8... but does it work? That would be the ultimate test.
Also interesting that the clones (of both the 8 and 16) are coming out with more input protection than the original - the 8-channel one linked above has buffered inputs (the original has only diodes), and if the 16-channel one is anything like this (http://sigrok.org/wiki/File:Xl-logic16-100m-pcb-top.jpg), it probably is buffered too. I wonder how the threshold setting works, however.
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....and if the 16-channel one is anything like this (http://sigrok.org/wiki/File:Xl-logic16-100m-pcb-top.jpg), it probably is buffered too. I wonder how the threshold setting works, however.
That one is exactly what is sold now for $25 (inc. shipping) on 'AliExpress', at seller's:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-Saleae-Logic16-Saleae16-100MHz-logic-analyzer-real-USB-interface-V2/1654077483.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-Saleae-Logic16-Saleae16-100MHz-logic-analyzer-real-USB-interface-V2/1654077483.html)
If you scroll down a little, you'll even find a link for a "patched" SW for it, which the seller claims does work for his item:
http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGLWZ6u (http://pan.baidu.com/s/1jGLWZ6u)
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This is of mine $8 logic16 clone
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This is of mine $8 logic16 clone
Thanks.
What SW are you running it with ?
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This is of mine $8 logic16 clone
That's more than $8 worth of parts alone.
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Not meant to be more OT. But I like to ask an OT question: I recently looked at an LA as in http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/LA5016-usb-logic-analyzer-sampling-rate-5G-500M-depth-2-PWM-outputs/704833_1597480529.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/LA5016-usb-logic-analyzer-sampling-rate-5G-500M-depth-2-PWM-outputs/704833_1597480529.html).
Is it worth $216+shipping (or ~$150 if I will have coworker bring it to me from China)? Or is this worth to have for hobby use and for someone starting taking interest on things on the MCU/SOC side.
The English in the link reads like from Google translation. The spec, as I understand it, is listed below:
LA5016 usb 16-channel logic analyzer:
--Hardware: sampling at 16ch x 32Mb @ 500MHz.
--5Gb/ch max software compressed depth (on device?).
--2-way PWM: 0.1Hz ~ 12.5MHz
--Threshold voltage: low <= 1.0V, high > = 2.0V
--Input voltage range : -50 ~ +50 V
--Input impedance : 780K, 10pf
--The current protocol decoder : uart/232, I2C, SPI --- subsequent continuous updates.
--Trigger: either edges, and AND channels.
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Not meant to be more OT. But I like to ask an OT question: I recently looked at an LA as in http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/LA5016-usb-logic-analyzer-sampling-rate-5G-500M-depth-2-PWM-outputs/704833_1597480529.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/LA5016-usb-logic-analyzer-sampling-rate-5G-500M-depth-2-PWM-outputs/704833_1597480529.html).
That's pretty interesting. It looks like not only are they distributing a cracked version of the Saleae software app, but they've modded it to claim it's the "Jiankun Virtual Instruments Suite". :palm: :-- Either that, or they've slavishly duplicated virtually every element of the UI on Logic16 (there are some tiny differences).
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24014768/jiankun-suite-UI.jpg)
It's different hardware, because it has onboard memory, which the Saleae does not.
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As the hardware is different, and the price is much higher, I think this is not a Saleae clone anymore but a "homage"; they might've decompiled and reused a lot of Saleae's UI code but there's also a lot of changes to that (like an "Expected Time" display, and different dropdowns for sample depth and rate) and the back-end code to support the different hardware are probably original work. Either way they've spent quite a bit of effort to make that, so I think it's rather amazing.
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OMG! According to some people here every board with Cypress FX2 is Saleae clone (BTW, who was first to solder an FX2 to a piece of fiberglass? - Saleae or USBee :D), every LA software with dark grey background, fancy trigger buttons and rainbow colored signals is cracked/decompiled Saleae again :D
Just take a look at hw design - there are different sample rates, different capture mode (wait for trigger, acquire to buffer, then forward to PC instead of just stream to PC continuously as Saleae does), data compression, PWMs - all this must be CODED, not CLONED. HW itself required lots of work too - routing a PCB for 500MHz and DDR memory is a bit different from 48MHz FX2, implementing DDR memory interface and data compression requires some FPGA HDL efforts too. So what's left for cloning? Main UI form design? Try watching i.e. Qt Designer tutorial videos to see how easy is to design an "xmas tree" styled UI form these days. Or take a look at this sw http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/software.html (http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/software.html) - is it a decompiled Saleae too?
This LA5016 is a good sign for users: big DDR memory based LA designs go cheap with chinese mass production (and not so good for Saleae/CWAV: your oversimplified HW is yesterday, drop the price).
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This is of mine $8 logic16 clone
Thanks.
What SW are you running it with ?
came with some.. hack. :) it works fine, something come up on the screen but nothing like what I thought, so I have to dig a bit.
(Tried to check the communication to an 7219 chip, should be spi-alike, but.. )
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routing a PCB for 500MHz
Worrying about the routing of the input trace seems putting the cart before the horse with single ended probes with no input attenuation.
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Worrying about the routing of the input trace seems putting the cart before the horse with single ended probes with no input attenuation.
But what about memory interface? Mem depth/speed/production year clearly suggests something like DDR2.
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Saleae is apparently about to release a new product. Not sure what it is. But that's the rumor.
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Cant wait to see what they finally come out with. Its been a long time with no updates and not even a full software update. They dont want to get anything out of Beta. I just hope my Logic16 holds some value once the new product comes out so I can recover some money to upgrade.
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Saleae is apparently about to release a new product. Not sure what it is. But that's the rumor.
I got an email from them the other day saying "Look forward to a big announcement soon!", so apparently it's not a rumor.
Here's a link to their pre-announcement video and a survey that if you fill out you get entered to win "One of our most exciting new products"
http://www.saleae.com/survey (http://www.saleae.com/survey)
Now shameless plug:
20% off if you use the code from this link.
http://saleae.refr.cc/L6H7DB7 (http://saleae.refr.cc/L6H7DB7)
Fine print: I get $20 coupon for Sparkfun if you use this link... No I don't work for Saleae.
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Cool, just took the survey to enter.
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8. If you were to purchase a new oscilloscope today, it would need a bandwidth of at least:
hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......