Author Topic: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?  (Read 2120 times)

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Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2020, 09:42:37 am »
Ok, lots of different views upon this..
Star answers, pointing in all directions! But that's good, different views, different points of where the future goes regarding new ideas and where the development will take direction. Important to remember, if you don't like or need a function, other may. And no pressure to use something you don't like or need.  ;)

But, as I see it, a modern Oscilloskop is a big bespoke calculator already. The frontend is analog conversion to digital and from there it's math calculations all the way.
We will see, more and more integration of external function integrated into the scope.
We got it already, signal generator, test signals with educational functions, help screens and automatic setup functions of more advanced measurements and calculations. Event tables that you can scroll tru.. integrerted spectrum analyser, voltmeter, frequency counters, totalizers.. And even voice control, Hello Scope!

So to where, looking like what, is the question for the oscilloskop development.

Maybe the test industry will go the same way as the remote diagnosis in the medical field.
You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.

There are still  improvements to be done.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 12:54:35 pm by ErikTheNorwegian »
/Erik
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Online SilverSolder

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2020, 04:02:35 pm »
[...]
You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.
[...]

What might also be cool, is the ability to flip the scope data back to a cloud service that can do more advanced calculations on the data and format it into customized reports etc.  This way, the scope doesn't need to contain anything more than the basic features, and the cloud service part of the product could be as advanced as you want...  including live interaction as you say!

This would be ideal, as the "conservative" use cases are not impacted, and the sky's the limit on new and crazy ideas in the cloud service.

(Note: I started writing this ironically,  then realized that sooner or later, a scope manufacturer is going to do exactly this!)
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2020, 05:30:57 pm »
Ok, lots of different views upon this..
Star answers, pointing in all directions! But that's good, different views, different points of where the future goes regarding new ideas and where the development will take direction. Important to remember, if you don't like or need a function, other may. And no pressure to use something you don't like or need.  ;)

But, as I see it, a modern Oscilloskop is a big bespoke calculator already. The frontend is analog conversion to digital and from there it's math calculations all the way.
We will see, more and more integration of external function integrated into the scope.
We got it already, signal generator, test signals with educational functions, help screens and automatic setup functions of more advanced measurements and calculations. Event tables that you can scroll tru.. integrerted spectrum analyser, voltmeter, frequency counters, totalizers.. And even voice control, Hello Scope!

So to where, looking like what, is the question for the oscilloskop development.

Maybe the test industry will go the same way as the remote diagnosis in the medical field.
You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.

There are still  improvements to be done.

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2020, 06:07:36 pm »
Maybe the test industry will go the same way as the remote diagnosis in the medical field.
You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.

You mean like the Micsig does...?  :popcorn:

« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 06:11:47 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2020, 06:13:25 pm »
Maybe the test industry will go the same way as the remote diagnosis in the medical field.
You attach a scope and start a video and remote control session with shared screen and controls with another person? The remote viewer can have more advanced measurements to look into the problem and help out further diagnoses based upon the signals you send.

You mean like the Micsig can do?  :popcorn:


Like Micsig, Keysight, Siglent, and any of the gazillion of  windows scopes that can run any sharing platform you like...
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2020, 07:12:59 pm »
Like Micsig, Keysight, Siglent, and any of the gazillion of  windows scopes that can run any sharing platform you like...

None of those have calculator or spreadsheet apps.

 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2020, 07:18:02 pm »
Like Micsig, Keysight, Siglent, and any of the gazillion of  windows scopes that can run any sharing platform you like...

None of those have calculator or spreadsheet apps.
Windows based scopes can have Matlab and Mathematica...
And calculator on a scope is a joke to add.. Fact that none have them is testament how over last 20 years nobody cared to ask for it.. 
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2020, 07:42:33 pm »

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

Just because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!
One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.
Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!
You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.
It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?

What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 07:47:31 pm by ErikTheNorwegian »
/Erik
Goooood karma is flowing..
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2020, 07:56:35 pm »
And calculator on a scope is a joke to add.. Fact that none have them is testament how over last 20 years nobody cared to ask for it..

How long have they had touch screens? Seems quite recent to me, and you wouldn't want a calculator without one.

 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2020, 08:01:03 pm »

In general, touch screens tend to get smeared with peanut butter and chocolate when I use them, so I prefer buttons & knobs to keep the screen readable!  :D
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2020, 08:21:58 pm »

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

Just because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!
One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.
Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!
You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.
It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?

What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. Let's recap: you asked about calculators. On that, dozens of people went to lengths to answer that. Than you went and had lengthy and pompous philosophical lamentation about how disappointed you are with current state of art in scopes and then asked where it all goes...

I merely pointed out that you are not qualified to think about what is future of oscilloscope before you actually know what is current state of the art. And future of T&M equipment is not that clear. It is, as any economic activity, not defined with what us geeks would like, or what would be technically good or mathematically correct, but by potential to make money in T/M sales. So sometimes it is real capability, and sometimes stupid gimmicks, that some idiot in marketing thought would be cool...

Lots of stuff you mentioned have been on the market for more than 10 years... In high end scopes.
New trend nowadays is that some of those capabilities are  trickling down to low end scopes....

And to finish this explanation, you need to learn more, on your own... By reading white papers, datasheets, browse catalogs... We cannot do that for you.. So you are qualified to ask questions that are relevant to topic you yourself opened..... While everybody has right to knowledge, and I really like people that want learn, believe it or not, there are moments when you're not qualified to ask the question. Because you cannot skip knowledge, and you will not understand the answer without learning basics first... So simply waste of time.

And it is written Aspergers....

Regards,
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2020, 08:36:25 pm »

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

Just because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!
One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.
Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!
You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.
It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?

What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. Let's recap: you asked about calculators. On that, dozens of people went to lengths to answer that. Than you went and had lengthy and pompous philosophical lamentation about how disappointed you are with current state of art in scopes and then asked where it all goes...

I merely pointed out that you are not qualified to think about what is future of oscilloscope before you actually know what is current state of the art. And future of T&M equipment is not that clear. It is, as any economic activity, not defined with what us geeks would like, or what would be technically good or mathematically correct, but by potential to make money in T/M sales. So sometimes it is real capability, and sometimes stupid gimmicks, that some idiot in marketing thought would be cool...

Lots of stuff you mentioned have been on the market for more than 10 years... In high end scopes.
New trend nowadays is that some of those capabilities are  trickling down to low end scopes....

And to finish this explanation, you need to learn more, on your own... By reading white papers, datasheets, browse catalogs... We cannot do that for you.. So you are qualified to ask questions that are relevant to topic you yourself opened..... While everybody has right to knowledge, and I really like people that want learn, believe it or not, there are moments when you're not qualified to ask the question. Because you cannot skip knowledge, and you will not understand the answer without learning basics first... So simply waste of time.

And it is written Aspergers....

Regards,

Still wasting your time?
/Erik
Goooood karma is flowing..
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2020, 08:48:01 pm »
And calculator on a scope is a joke to add.. Fact that none have them is testament how over last 20 years nobody cared to ask for it..

How long have they had touch screens? Seems quite recent to me, and you wouldn't want a calculator without one.

First thing, you may argue that any scope with arbitrary math HAS calculator... :-DD

Touch screen scope? I know that LeCroy was selling touch screen scope in 2003.... so 17 years and counting..
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2020, 08:51:12 pm »

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

Just because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!
One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.
Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!
You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.
It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?

What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. Let's recap: you asked about calculators. On that, dozens of people went to lengths to answer that. Than you went and had lengthy and pompous philosophical lamentation about how disappointed you are with current state of art in scopes and then asked where it all goes...

I merely pointed out that you are not qualified to think about what is future of oscilloscope before you actually know what is current state of the art. And future of T&M equipment is not that clear. It is, as any economic activity, not defined with what us geeks would like, or what would be technically good or mathematically correct, but by potential to make money in T/M sales. So sometimes it is real capability, and sometimes stupid gimmicks, that some idiot in marketing thought would be cool...

Lots of stuff you mentioned have been on the market for more than 10 years... In high end scopes.
New trend nowadays is that some of those capabilities are  trickling down to low end scopes....

And to finish this explanation, you need to learn more, on your own... By reading white papers, datasheets, browse catalogs... We cannot do that for you.. So you are qualified to ask questions that are relevant to topic you yourself opened..... While everybody has right to knowledge, and I really like people that want learn, believe it or not, there are moments when you're not qualified to ask the question. Because you cannot skip knowledge, and you will not understand the answer without learning basics first... So simply waste of time.

And it is written Aspergers....

Regards,

Still wasting your time?

Honestly, I answered because I read Aspergers in your signature, so I gave you benefit of the doubt that you're not trolling... And now you are working hard to prove me wrong...   :-DD
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2020, 09:04:58 pm »
In general, touch screens tend to get smeared with peanut butter and chocolate when I use them, so I prefer buttons & knobs to keep the screen readable!  :D

Filthy buttons instead? Ew! At least a screen can be wiped down.
 

Offline wizard69

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2020, 09:10:21 pm »
This is a good question.  I'd rather see a scope that gave me access to a full Linux desktop where I can install the tools of my choice.   One alternative is to build your lab around a PC using PC based instruments.

A 'scope with built-in X11 server and command line C++ compiler would be awesome.

From what I understand many instrument manufactures are embedding Linux in their instruments so it wouldn't be a huge jump to give us a desktop.    As for C++ I'm of the opinion that it is morphing into something that turns my stomach.    But Python would certainly be a good thing and for performance maybe Julia or Swift.   

In any event the big advantage to a desktop on an instrument like a scope is in the small utilities like a calculator, note taking, image viewers and office apps.   I don't see a scope replacing a laptop or desktop computer (in most cases) but there are certainly times when moving away from the instrument to the full blown compute systems doesn't make sense.    A calculator app is a perfect example.

An example here is the world of machining where demand for a calculator has caused many manufactures of CNC controls and coordinate readout systems to include the functionality.    With today's technology the amount of RAM and storage to do something like this is trivial.   So You have to ask why most electronics instruments, that could otherwise support more functionality, have such a sterile app system.    Obviously not every instrument on the bench needs this capability but because a scope is so central to the bench or even field work you would think that manufactures would put as much capability into the units as possible.

Part of the problem might be the manufactures being afraid of having to support a ""distro"" on their own.   Certainly an issue but that can also be contracted with the likes of Redhat or whomever.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2020, 09:11:45 pm »
Fun idea, don't worry about the haters! I'll pass it along to R&D as an FYI. It sounds like something that could get implemented at an internal hackathon or as a pet project for someone in their "down" time. I personally have a graphing calculator on my desk at all times (and a phone), but that doesn't mean I wouldn't use an internal one if it existed.

Yep.

No too long ago people would have called you crazy for wanting an alarm clock and bluetooth speaker in a multimeter, yet here we are:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000343031770.html



FWIW: Everybody who's bought one says they're awesome.
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2020, 09:22:26 pm »

You should do your homework before wasting everybody's time. All those things already exist. It's just you don't know it... Including remote control.

Just because not "all" on this forum have your knowledge upon this thing, dosent mean that the questions can be asked!
One ask because one don't know and need information or are willing to learn. If you don't like the question, opinions or views correspond to your opinion or knowledge, look away and find a topic that you can like.
Your attitude, to be honest stinks in so many ways and your view upon someone that dosent has the has knowledg that you got is not ok!
You don't encourage people to ask or get information needed by showing such attitude. This forum is as far as I know for all, both beginners and professionals and everybody between.
It's clear that you waste your own time by posting several times in a topic you don't find worth your time, so why do you do such a stupid thing if you say it's a waste of time? Just to show of that you in your own opinion is "smarter"?

What you should do as "homework" is learning some human skills.

Thank you for explaining your point of view. Let's recap: you asked about calculators. On that, dozens of people went to lengths to answer that. Than you went and had lengthy and pompous philosophical lamentation about how disappointed you are with current state of art in scopes and then asked where it all goes...

I merely pointed out that you are not qualified to think about what is future of oscilloscope before you actually know what is current state of the art. And future of T&M equipment is not that clear. It is, as any economic activity, not defined with what us geeks would like, or what would be technically good or mathematically correct, but by potential to make money in T/M sales. So sometimes it is real capability, and sometimes stupid gimmicks, that some idiot in marketing thought would be cool...

Lots of stuff you mentioned have been on the market for more than 10 years... In high end scopes.
New trend nowadays is that some of those capabilities are  trickling down to low end scopes....

And to finish this explanation, you need to learn more, on your own... By reading white papers, datasheets, browse catalogs... We cannot do that for you.. So you are qualified to ask questions that are relevant to topic you yourself opened..... While everybody has right to knowledge, and I really like people that want learn, believe it or not, there are moments when you're not qualified to ask the question. Because you cannot skip knowledge, and you will not understand the answer without learning basics first... So simply waste of time.

And it is written Aspergers....

Regards,

Still wasting your time?

Honestly, I answered because I read Aspergers in your signature, so I gave you benefit of the doubt that you're not trolling... And now you are working hard to prove me wrong...   :-DD

Again, learn yourself some human skills!
And, I got 3 engineering degrees.
And, I don't know why you bring this up, but it is like this, You have aspergers, but you are a  asperger.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 09:25:54 pm by ErikTheNorwegian »
/Erik
Goooood karma is flowing..
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2020, 09:22:53 pm »
As for C++ I'm of the opinion that it is morphing into something that turns my stomach.

A lot of the new features are really useful when your code starts getting bigger (eg. lambdas). Having things like built in threading/mutexes and decent time functions is good too.

They don't break anything though, you can still write C in C++ if you want to.
 

Offline wd5jfr

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2020, 09:40:04 pm »
If it would speak the reading I was taking it would be worthwhile to have for me so I wouldn't have to take my eyes off the circuit connections.  Many years ago I saw an ?HP DVM that had a headpiece to show the numbers on a visor so you didn't have to take you eyes off the circuit but I couldn't afford it.  I've never seen one since and wouldn't mind finding one.  Too many times the probe has slipped and sparks fly or worse you let the smoke out of a component and get an increase in entropy.
.Hank
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 09:44:11 pm by wd5jfr »
 

Offline ErikTheNorwegian

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2020, 10:30:06 pm »
If it would speak the reading I was taking it would be worthwhile to have for me so I wouldn't have to take my eyes off the circuit connections.  Many years ago I saw an ?HP DVM that had a headpiece to show the numbers on a visor so you didn't have to take you eyes off the circuit but I couldn't afford it.  I've never seen one since and wouldn't mind finding one.  Too many times the probe has slipped and sparks fly or worse you let the smoke out of a component and get an increase in entropy.
.Hank

Speaking to the instrument is great, got a Infiniivision MSO6004A, bought just for fun and it's voice command is really great. Don't have to lift the probe away while adjusting the scope! 
/Erik
Goooood karma is flowing..
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2020, 01:07:20 am »
If it would speak the reading I was taking it would be worthwhile to have for me so I wouldn't have to take my eyes off the circuit connections.  Many years ago I saw an ?HP DVM that had a headpiece to show the numbers on a visor so you didn't have to take you eyes off the circuit but I couldn't afford it.  I've never seen one since and wouldn't mind finding one.  Too many times the probe has slipped and sparks fly or worse you let the smoke out of a component and get an increase in entropy.
.Hank

I've been thinking of building something like that - just a LED display that you can poke numbers into wirelessly would be perfect...

Something like Google Glass, that could overlay a circuit board with all the test points and measured vs. expected signals, as you probe it...   how cool would that be?
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2020, 07:51:53 am »
Something like Google Glass, that could overlay a circuit board with all the test points and measured vs. expected signals, as you probe it...   how cool would that be?
1993: Virtual Light, by William Gibson, a novel.
2013: Google Glass, by Google, an appliance
2016: Hololens, by Microsoft, another appliance

But, first and foremost, 1988: We have the technology, by Pere Ubu, a song.
Quote
Linked with our machines our eyes are beaming
It won't matter at all
How weird
Things are seeming
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2020, 04:50:12 pm »
Something like Google Glass, that could overlay a circuit board with all the test points and measured vs. expected signals, as you probe it...   how cool would that be?
1993: Virtual Light, by William Gibson, a novel.
2013: Google Glass, by Google, an appliance
2016: Hololens, by Microsoft, another appliance

But, first and foremost, 1988: We have the technology, by Pere Ubu, a song.
Quote
Linked with our machines our eyes are beaming
It won't matter at all
How weird
Things are seeming

You sound like a possible Philip K. Dick fan....   :D
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Why don't the touch scopes have a calculator app?
« Reply #49 on: October 20, 2020, 11:46:00 am »
You sound like a possible Philip K. Dick fan....   :D

I became one a few weeks ago after I read Ubik.
 


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