Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[Bassman59]

Seems like Fluke does offer many other meters.

Oh, sure, they make lots of meters... but nothing that's cheaper than the 87V would work on an EE workbench. They're all missing some essential feature or other (usually uA or TRMS).

Then if you need the features offered only by the 87V, then you pay for the 87V. If the other, less expensive meters meet your needs, you buy a different meter.

In other words, the 87V costs more because it has all of the features. Other meters cost less because they have fewer features.

I don't see the problem.

[Fungus]

I don't see the problem.

It's not the logic of the lineup, it's the stagnation of it.

[Fungus]

It is so silly that the same people keep making the same tired arguments against Fluke pricing. If you’re price sensitive, then don’t buy one. You’re not their target market.

I'm not their target market but it's not because of price, it's because they don't offer much bang per buck compared to other meters.

Why would I buy a Fluke 87V when I can buy two or three equivalent/better meters for the same money? (eg. a BM857s)

[bdunham7]

(Also: I've heard of Brymen and I can get two or three BM857s for the price of an 87V)

Well, here in the US the 87V would be less than double all-in, you get the low-pass VFD filter and a good warranty, vs essentially no warranty for Brymen.  YMMV depending on where you are.  But I don't think Fluke is concerned--they seem to be selling everything they make, as they're out of stock on the 87V at the moment.

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-87v

OK, it might affect sales of that meter. It would probably a gain for Fluke though as it simplifies production and distribution logistics to have one less model in the lineup.

Fluke seems to sell stuff targeted for a particular use.  How well they do that it debatable, but from what I see, Brymen is the one with a frighteningly large selection of very similar DMMs. It appears to be that way because they sell and OEM under different brands and they need to differentiate them somehow.  Take the EEVBlog BM786 vs the BM789, for example.  Or look at any of their series of meters.  They must have over three dozen models of just plain handheld DMMs with varying sets of standard features.  Fluke, OTOH, shows 22 models here and that includes one with a thermal camera, one with a remote display, two average-responding units for specific applications, an ATEX-certified model, an automotive-specific model, a wireless remote hub model and a couple of weirdos (87V MAX, 113).

 https://www.fluke.com/en-us/products/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters

[tooki]

It is so silly that the same people keep making the same tired arguments against Fluke pricing. If you’re price sensitive, then don’t buy one. You’re not their target market.

I'm not their target market but it's not because of price, it's because they don't offer much bang per buck compared to other meters.

That comment literally makes no sense. A “target market” is the definition of who you are designing your product for. Their target market for the Fluke 87V is industrial electricians for whom safety is paramount, so the feature set and pricing reflects that. How YOU perceive bang for buck is irrelevant to them, since you’re not an industrial electrician (AFAIK).

Why would I buy a Fluke 87V when I can buy two or three equivalent/better meters for the same money? (eg. a BM857s)

Literally spelled out for you in the remainder of my comment, the part you didn’t quote.

[james_s]

I'm not their target market but it's not because of price, it's because they don't offer much bang per buck compared to other meters.

Why would I buy a Fluke 87V when I can buy two or three equivalent/better meters for the same money? (eg. a BM857s)

Well I bought one, and if something happened to it I'd buy another one, the Fluke 87-III offers all the bang for the buck I need. It's a rock solid reliable practically bulletproof industrial grade meter. It does everything I need a meter to do, it feels nice in my hand, and I trust it to work when I need it to work. I don't need 2 or 3 meters and I would argue that those cheaper meters are not equivalent. "Better" is subjective, I've used plenty of good meters but so far none that I'd trade my Fluke for. The only thing really lacking from the 87-III is the diode test beep, the 87-V brings that back but screwed up the current range by making it default to AC. If they fixed that it would be perfect.

[james_s]

I don't see the problem.

It's not the logic of the lineup, it's the stagnation of it.

Stagnation of the lineup isn't a but, it's a feature.

Their target market is people like me, who want to be able to buy a replacement for the tool we know and are familiar with 10, 20 or however many years into the future, we don't want it changed just for the sake of change, or have new features added we don't need. A DMM is a tool, and it's a very mature product at this point. Do you complain that the hammer offerings are stagnant? Do you want to see new and updated crowbars and screwdrivers on a regular basis? Has the socket wrench market gone stale? These are all mature tools, they have been refined to perfection over decades and there is nothing to gain and a lot to lose by continuing to muck with them and change  what works. If you want flashy new features and see value in that then buy something that offers what you want. If you still don't understand why someone would want "tried and true" you probably never will.

[james_s]

Would (eg.) Bluetooth viewing+data logging affect their formula or sales?

It would definitely make me less likely to buy one. I have zero use for bluetooth logging in a meter, it is a consumer toy and would be a pointless gimmick that would add unnecessary cost and battery drain, likely requiring a fundamental redesign of the meter, and who knows what compromises it might bring. There are other products out there already offering such gimmicks, Fluke has obviously decided that their target customers don't see value in features like that or they would offer it.

[Bassman59]

I don't see the problem.

It's not the logic of the lineup, it's the stagnation of it.

then clearly there is space in that market for you to swoop in and design a "better 87" and make a zillion dollars.

[AaronLee]

It is so silly that the same people keep making the same tired arguments against Fluke pricing. If you’re price sensitive, then don’t buy one. You’re not their target market. (Heck, as electronics people, we are not their target market to begin with.) Fluke’s target markets are electricians (especially industrial), where safety is more important than cost.

That's spot on, in my estimation. I don't quite understand the attraction that electronics engineers have towards Fluke, other than they're very well trusted and you know what you're getting. I'm sure there are some electronics engineers who do need the safety/physical durability that they're famous for, but far and away most of us don't need that, and thus don't need to be paying for it. On the other hand, if you don't want to waste time searching for a different brand that'll be comparable, or take any chances, just pay extra for a Fluke. Don't, though, be tempted to buy one just because everyone else is. I was in that position many years ago and bought and expensive Fluke for my personal electronics work. A friend semi-permanently borrowed it many years ago, and to tell you the truth, I'm not missing it. My Brymen works just as well, and my benchtop DMM much better.

[kcbrown]

That's spot on, in my estimation. I don't quite understand the attraction that electronics engineers have towards Fluke, other than they're very well trusted and you know what you're getting.

They're also (generally) very well built and well-engineered.

Frankly, given the target audience (electricians) of most Fluke meters, I suspect that Fluke actually made the right call in having voltage default to AC on the 87V.

I'm sure there are some electronics engineers who do need the safety/physical durability that they're famous for, but far and away most of us don't need that, and thus don't need to be paying for it.

While that's true, durability and longevity tend to be at least somewhat related.  A Fluke is something you can basically count on to last more or less forever, so you have to buy it only once.

I'm pretty sure there are other meters (Brymen) for which that's likely the case, but with Fluke you know that's the case.

On the other hand, if you don't want to waste time searching for a different brand that'll be comparable, or take any chances, just pay extra for a Fluke. Don't, though, be tempted to buy one just because everyone else is. I was in that position many years ago and bought and expensive Fluke for my personal electronics work. A friend semi-permanently borrowed it many years ago, and to tell you the truth, I'm not missing it. My Brymen works just as well, and my benchtop DMM much better.

If I were advising someone on bench equipment, I'd end up recommending a cheap handheld meter to start with, and if they stick with the hobby then I'd advise going directly to a benchtop meter from there, over something like a Fluke.  The handheld can be used when the situation calls for it (it's handy to be able to take the meter to where the problem is), but a good bench meter is much nicer to use.

[james_s]

They're also (generally) very well built and well-engineered.

Frankly, given the target audience (electricians) of most Fluke meters, I suspect that Fluke actually made the right call in having voltage default to AC on the 87V.

The excellent engineering is a significant appeal to me, and the fact that they're built to be serviced and they are supported for a long time.

I know a number of professional electricians and I end up doing a fair amount of that sort of work myself. It's very rare to interrupt a circuit and insert the meter to measure current, I certainly wouldn't try it in most cases. A current clamp is the proper method and that uses the voltage input on the meter.

That's kind of beside the point though. There's no reason for it to default to anything every time the current range is selected, it should stay set to whatever it was last set to. It should store it when power is off ideally but even just retaining the setting while the meter is on would be vastly better than the way it works now. I hope I can find a nice 87-III if something ever happens to the one I have.

[Fungus]

Their target market for the Fluke 87V is industrial electricians

The feature set of the 87V doesn't scream "Electrican" to me. It doesn't even have non-contact voltage or lo-Z.

Industrial electricians probably shouldn't be measuring currrent inline, either. That's what clamps are for.

If I were an electrician I'd probably be looking at a different model, eg, the 113, or one of these.

If I was splashing out I'd probably go for a 117.

...for whom safety is paramount

In that case you'd think they'd be interested in a CAT IV 1000V meter, but Fluke doesn't make any of those.

[Fungus]

It would definitely make me less likely to buy one. I have zero use for bluetooth logging in a meter, it is a consumer toy and would be a pointless gimmick that would add unnecessary cost and battery drain

Why should it drain the battery if you're not using it? It can just power-down that part of the circuit.

Fluke has obviously decided that their target customers don't see value in features like that or they would offer it.

They made a meter with detachable screen instead...?

[AaronLee]

I know a number of professional electricians and I end up doing a fair amount of that sort of work myself.

Many years ago when I bought a Fluke, I was thinking, "Oh, I need this for my electronics work, and someday maybe I can use it for some electrician type work." But the thing is, I'm not a trained electrician, and know just enough to be dangerous. Getting a Fluke, because of it's safety features, and then trying to use it when I'm not trained in such type of work is a recipe for disaster. Instead, if ever I have a job needing an electrician's skill, I'll call an electrician to do it. For those doing electronics and who are trained enough to do an electrician's work as well, and have a need to do that type of work, I guess the Fluke would be a good choice.

[james_s]

It would definitely make me less likely to buy one. I have zero use for bluetooth logging in a meter, it is a consumer toy and would be a pointless gimmick that would add unnecessary cost and battery drain

Why should it drain the battery if you're not using it? It can just power-down that part of the circuit.

Fluke has obviously decided that their target customers don't see value in features like that or they would offer it.

They made a meter with detachable screen instead...?

Well if it's not being used then yeah I suppose it could be powered down, but it's still probably going to require a complete redesign of the meter, you can't just tack on bluetooth and expect that to work. They'd be extremely foolish to redesign a winning formula to add a feature that most of their customers don't want. Would you buy a Fluke if they made one that added a bluetooth interface? I doubt it, someone else already owns that niche.

The detachable screen makes a lot more sense for a professional setting. Maybe you don't quite grasp the sort of environments this stuff gets used in, a smartphone is not nearly rugged enough, the meters are designed to survive being dropped off of ladders onto concrete, dropped into manufacturing machines, exposed to vibration, oil and grease, and other rough treatment. They also are expected to last many many hours on a battery. My smartphone can rarely make it through a whole day without being recharged and I'm not trying to use it for my job. I don't personally need a detachable screen but if I did want to read my meter from a remote location that's the solution I'd go with vs using a phone. A dedicated device that is always paired together strikes me as superior, I can see it being useful for someone who spends a lot of time working on machine tools, usually the control cabinet is around back and you can't reach the control panel and see a meter inside the cabinet from the same place.

[Fungus]

I'm sure there are some electronics engineers who do need the safety/physical durability that they're famous for, but far and away most of us don't need that, and thus don't need to be paying for it.

Fluke can provide that same safety/durability in a $100 meter.

eg. https://www.fluke.com/en-in/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-15b-plus

[Fungus]

The excellent engineering is a significant appeal to me, and the fact that they're built to be serviced and they are supported for a long time.

I can buy a complete kit of parts for my Brymen, including replacement PCB for about $160. 

[tooki]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one. But stop pissing in everyone else’s Cheerios!!

[Markus2801A]

Sometimes I think those Bluetooth and App Connectivity which has been added into home appliances also like vacuum cleaners, dish washers etc. seems to bee a marketing feature which IMHO as far as also I have some devices which offers those abilities, is not really a gain of usability etc in the most cases.
They SELL it as feature but in most cases it doesn't really make any sense in practical use I think

So in a Multimeter additional features like bluetooth (paired with an app on smartphone etc) can make sense, but it really has to be well designed and thanked over and over again before they implement it.
In a bench top, I would go for a LAN and good WebInterface.

[2N3055]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one. But stop pissing in everyone else’s Cheerios!!

I agree..

And several other people should stop being "Jehovah's Witnesses of Fluke second coming " on the same token.. That is ALSO off the topic... I think poor Fluke Corp will survive Fungus even without crusaders...
Brymen is great, Fluke is glorious..
Not a topic..  Brymen doesn't even make benchtops or scopes.

Fluke does makes scopes and benchtop meters, and interestingly enough, Fluke's scopes are not cheaper than benchtop meter. Except 8.5 digit meter and calibrators that I think are not point of this discussion.

OTOH Bluetooth in a meter is either something you don't need or could be useful. It provides galvanic isolation at a distance.. I don't own any meters that have it though. I don't have a use for it.

[Fungus]

Fungus, can you please just let it go? Is it really necessary for you to derail yet another thread with your anti-Fluke crusade? You don’t like it? Don’t buy one.

No, no... you've got it all wrong. I'm not Anti-Fluke. Fluke make some fine meters, I even own a few, including a 50,000 count, dual display Fluke 87-IV.

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

It just doesn't seem that special.

[AaronLee]

What I don't get is the deification of a meter that's obviously very overpriced and whose only design criteria is to milk money from corporate/government accounts and is holding back Fluke from producing anything better.

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts. If just about anyone was in charge of the company, they'd do the same. Tektronix and Keysight do the same thing with their products targeting corporate/government accounts. The only thing is the typical equipment Tektronix and Keysight sell are thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars, or more. Versus a portable multimeter for let's say $500, isn't in the same ballpark cost wise.

You also have to realize the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" point can be an issue. Whether you're a hobbyist or a professional, your time is valuable. If you end up wasting days just researching which multimeter to buy as an alternative to a Fluke, you might end up spending way more for the alternative, when you consider the value of your time. If you save $100, but waste $300 worth of your time in doing so, then you're not being very wise.

I'm not trying to defend Fluke's practices, but on the other hand I can't say they're wrong either. And while a Fluke meter isn't for me, I totally understand that for some it is the right choice.

[Fungus]

I don't think you can blame Fluke for making products/pricing that milks money from those accounts.

Nope, but normally manufacturers who do that are ridiculed.

eg. Not many people around here would go out of their way to spend double money to own a Tek oscilloscope. Even Keysights are regarded as extravagant.

You also have to realize the "penny-wise, pound-foolish" point can be an issue.

Perspective: For the price of the 87V I can get a more capable Brymen meter plus a Hakko soldering iron and still have money left over.

[Doctorandus_P]

Regarding Metrahit 30M: it has been discontinued 
But spec wise there seems no alternative for this 1,200,000 digit display range handheld Multimeter ;-)

Why did Gossen not continue?

More then a million digits for DMM?
And I thought that 8 1/2 digits was already impressive.

But after I saw how gossen treated Joey Q I don't even look at that brand with my neck hairs.