Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[nctnico]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.  Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

I use both.
And I use handhelds on a desk because of workflow.  Sometimes I place it in the middle of device, or right next to it in-between stuff on a desk, so I don't even have to move the head to see it. Bench meter on a shelf above is not really a good ergonomic choice for lot of measurement.
Some time ago I was repairing sound mixing console, and i put multimeter inside open case next to the boards...

They both have their place.

I also keep scopes on a desk too, looking up and down all the time is annoying. I tried keeping them on the shelf, it didn't work for me..

Equipment on a shelve sucks too. I've stopped doing that a long time ago as well. I just stack what I need for a project.

[2N3055]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.  Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

I use both.
And I use handhelds on a desk because of workflow.  Sometimes I place it in the middle of device, or right next to it in-between stuff on a desk, so I don't even have to move the head to see it. Bench meter on a shelf above is not really a good ergonomic choice for lot of measurement.
Some time ago I was repairing sound mixing console, and i put multimeter inside open case next to the boards...

They both have their place.

I also keep scopes on a desk too, looking up and down all the time is annoying. I tried keeping them on the shelf, it didn't work for me..

Equipment on a shelve sucks too. I've stopped doing that a long time ago as well. I just stack what I need for a project.

Yep. Pretty much same here. I have them on the shelves because there they sit, and sometimes for something quick I might use it from there. But, for longer jobs, mostly I make collection what I'm gonna use and sit it on a desk.

[AaronLee]

Nico, I agree with your reasoning for the use of bench multimeters, but IME I see heaps of portable DMMs (in stationary capacity) on the labs instead of bench units. Perhaps it is a cultural facet of the users or even equipment availability but, with a wide bench (common in the professional labs I know) nobody really cares about space and keep their handhelds around.

I still assume that is mostly because people don't really think about their workflow.  Momentum can be hard to divert. I used to have several handhelds as well and at some point came to the conclusion that using a handheld is just sub-optimal.

I use both.
And I use handhelds on a desk because of workflow.  Sometimes I place it in the middle of device, or right next to it in-between stuff on a desk, so I don't even have to move the head to see it. Bench meter on a shelf above is not really a good ergonomic choice for lot of measurement.
Some time ago I was repairing sound mixing console, and i put multimeter inside open case next to the boards...

They both have their place.

I also keep scopes on a desk too, looking up and down all the time is annoying. I tried keeping them on the shelf, it didn't work for me..

I keep the equipment I refer to all the time at the rear of my workbench, which includes a scope, stacked bench top DMM/signal generator/frequency counter next to it, and a DC power supply next to that, where it's all at eye-level. I have two portable DMMs where I can easily grab one or both and put it on my workbench when I need multiple simultaneous readings. Any lesser used equipment is on shelves, and I can either use it there, with the need to look up, or if the equipment will be used a lot, I'll bring it down to my workbench.

I agree about the portable displays not being as readable as a bench top DMM, and also that they don't fit was well into my workflow. Perhaps it's just what I'm used to though. In my former job, everyone had portable DMMs but they were very crappy/cheap units with extremely limited precision, only for getting basic measurements. Anyone needing precise measurements had an Agilent/HP bench top DMM, along with matching PSU, signal generator, frequency counter, etc., which we stacked next to what we were working on, along with a scope next to it. For me, that's what made sense, so I tried to duplicate that on my home workbench.

[EEVblog]

Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?

There may be less knobs and parts etc, but the precision of the parts required on  higher end bench meter is much greater, so they can cost more. At least for things like the reference and custom hybrid resistor divider arrays.
And then you have market forces. Everyone needs a scope and handheld DMM, but not everyone needs a precison bench DMM, therefore sales volumes would be lower, less agressive competition for that market space etc.

[Sighound36]

We mainly Lecroy 12 bot scopes for a of tigh focus power supply work, however a quality bench DMM is very useful and in fairess more accuarate, currently have three bench DMM's a DM6500 for general work, a DMM7510 for the really tight stuff a Keithley 2002. ow the Lecrfoys have a gain accuarcy of 0.5% which is pretty decent for a scope and at soldered board level work with an RP4030 its damn fine. For those situation that require more in focus (low uA/uA ranges and below) then a quality bench DMM is essential. These meters are 28 bit adc's & above hardware and are three orders of magnitute greater in measurment accuracy capability.

Most hobbists will never need to go to this degree of precise ability so not really an issue (unless a well heeled analy retentive person with plenty of funds and time on their hands).

The bottom line is that a sub £1K 8 bit scope isn't the ideal ideal method of securing those cricital results need, but its a respectable method of geting near. A good hand held DMM can be more accurate and I personally would consider essential for any person intrested in EE hobbist or other wise. pretty sure Dave has around half a dozen or so. Personally I have three and they are used daily.

[Markus2801A]

Equipment on a shelve sucks too. I've stopped doing that a long time ago as well. I just stack what I need for a project.

Yep. Pretty much same here. I have them on the shelves because there they sit, and sometimes for something quick I might use it from there. But, for longer jobs, mostly I make collection what I'm gonna use and sit it on a desk.

Me too :-)
But I'm curious, what do you think, which high end Handheld Multimeter would "compete" with a e.g. Keithley DMM6500? Besides the missing 4W Kelvin Measurement?
Gossen? Fluke? Brymen? others? Suggestions are very Wellcome!

[EEVblog]

But I'm curious, what do you think, which high end Handheld Multimeter would "compete" with a e.g. Keithley DMM6500? Besides the missing 4W Kelvin Measurement?
Gossen? Fluke? Brymen? others? Suggestions are very Wellcome!

There is only benchtop class handheld meter, the Gossen 30m

[2N3055]

Equipment on a shelve sucks too. I've stopped doing that a long time ago as well. I just stack what I need for a project.

Yep. Pretty much same here. I have them on the shelves because there they sit, and sometimes for something quick I might use it from there. But, for longer jobs, mostly I make collection what I'm gonna use and sit it on a desk.

Me too :-)
But I'm curious, what do you think, which high end Handheld Multimeter would "compete" with a e.g. Keithley DMM6500? Besides the missing 4W Kelvin Measurement?
Gossen? Fluke? Brymen? others? Suggestions are very Wellcome!

Well it depends. Basically none of them can "compete".
Benchtops usually have more that permanent power supply and better accuracy.

They have good connectivity, built in math, support for sensor measurements, triggering  etc...

On Rigol DM3068 you can define custom sensors and measure that. You have histograms etc etc.
Most others have same.
On DMM6500 you have built in programming language. That is very powerful. It is not completely stable though.. Mostly is.

Of all my handhelds the closest one to these advanced functions is (as you probably already guessed :-) is MTX3293.

It has SCPI connectivity and many advanced features. Since I got that one, I switch on my DM3068 much less often than before. Actually, rarely, unless something specific is needed.

One specific measurement that requires benchtop meter is any measurement that needs triggering for instance.
Either meter triggering from a slope, or external trigger. Or set meter to measure voltage for 1 second after 500msec delay  after it went above 12V... No handheld has these kinds of functions.

Also many benchtops support GO/NOGO measurements, with logic output you can connect to giant red light  ..

So benchtops are really different type of instrument.

[Gyro]

But I'm curious, what do you think, which high end Handheld Multimeter would "compete" with a e.g. Keithley DMM6500? Besides the missing 4W Kelvin Measurement?
Gossen? Fluke? Brymen? others? Suggestions are very Wellcome!

There is only benchtop class handheld meter, the Gossen 30m

...and even that isn't reallly benchtop class. [Edit: No 4 wire Ohms measurement that's clever], no >10Gig input resistance up to 20V etc. It does have a lot of digits though!

[tooki]

To an extent, we’ve reached a point where there isn’t much of a market for 4.5 digit (never mind 3.5 digit) bench meters. Those specs are easily met by a handheld meter at fairly low cost, and I suppose that the people who need most of the extra features in bench meters also need more precision. (Or they’ve gone in the direction of specialty test gear, for example power loggers.)

Noooo    For the umpteenth time: bench meters are better for stationary use compared to handhelds. Handhelds are always in the way, have a poor read-out angle, and they auto-shutdown when they are needed the most. I don't need my daily driver DMM to be very accurate. I need it to be stackable so it doesn't clutter the workspace, never run out of batteries, be clearly readable and stay on until I switch it off. For the work I do a handheld meter is super clumsy to use.

I totally understand (and agree with) all of that. I was just expressing my theory as to why so few <5.5 digit bench meters are available today.

[Fungus]

There is only benchtop class handheld meter, the Gossen 30m

Does it have a temperature-controlled voltage reference?

If that's not a requisite then the Hioki DT4282 would be another contender.

[Markus2801A]

There is only benchtop class handheld meter, the Gossen 30m

Is it still available, I thought it is EOL? okay have to check.

Of all my handhelds the closest one to these advanced functions is (as you probably already guessed :-) is MTX3293.

So benchtops are really different type of instrument.

Yes of course its a great device! But Sometimes I think there is no progress in handheld DMM development? It should be possible today to manufacture handheld units with even more
precision and more feature to better compete with bigger Benchtop units - or lets say to replace them in some kind of scenario were users don't want a bigger bench top unit?!
There are many "High End" lets say 850€++ units out there, Metrix, Gossen, Fluke etc.
But those models are more than 5 years old. So why isn't there coming something new? Of course not every year but e.g. Fluke 289 hasn't been updated for many years.
The new CA Version of the Metrix has IMHO just some minor improvements etc.
So when is the next big step in High End handheld Multimeter coming?

[Fungus]

e.g. Fluke 289 hasn't been updated for many years.

Neither has the Fluke 87V.

Apparently nobody wants "upgrades", it would cost the industry a fortune in retraining people and rewriting all the procedures.

So when is the next big step in High End handheld Multimeter coming?

What would you add?

There's not really any point in adding digits without temperature control and a heated voltage reference would take time to warm up and use a lot of batteries. People don't want that in handhelds.

Apart from that, what features are missing these days? My main peeve with many meters is too many functions on each switch position so you're constantly pressing "select" every time you turn the dial.

If I could request one feature it would be a DC power jack so you could plug it in and leave it on all day on the bench with the backlight enabled. People have claimed it would make the meter unsafe but I'm not sure I'm buying that - a power socket can be electrically isolated and be behind a sliding door (for example).

[Kleinstein]

If I could request one feature it would be a DC power jack so you could plug it in and leave it on all day on the bench with the backlight enabled. People have claimed it would make the meter unsafe but I'm not sure I'm buying that - a power socket can be electrically isolated and be behind a sliding door (for example).

A safe external power supply would need to an extra isolated DC/DC stage, good for the worst case voltage. This may work OP for 300 V CAT 2 meter, but it gets hard with a 1000 V CAT3. The standard DCDC converter are not that good, and they tend to be noisy.

[bdunham7]

Apparently nobody wants "upgrades", it would cost the industry a fortune in retraining people and rewriting all the procedures.

Well they could improve the contrast and overall visibility on the 289 without causing any complaint.  As for features, can't imagine adding any features to it as it already has so many the menus are 3 layers deep.

If I could request one feature it would be a DC power jack so you could plug it in and leave it on all day on the bench with the backlight enabled. People have claimed it would make the meter unsafe but I'm not sure I'm buying that - a power socket can be electrically isolated and be behind a sliding door (for example).

My old scopemeter has an external supply and meets CAT III/600V, but that is a very expensive and complex solution that probably adds $100 or so to the cost of the instrument.  A plug-in, hard-wired power supply is going to be problematic as you need a lot of isolation somewhere and you probably don't want an SMPS inside your DMM.  The only cost-effective, safe way I can think of doing this is some sort of Qi-like wireless power mat (or perhaps just Qi itself since the charging mats are out there) and I'm not sure you want that on your bench when you are measuring stuff.  Or maybe it works fine and doesn't interfere with anything not right on top of it.  Perhaps Aneng will come out with it first! 

[Fungus]

A safe external power supply would need to an extra isolated DC/DC stage, good for the worst case voltage. This may work OP for 300 V CAT 2 meter, but it gets hard with a 1000 V CAT3. The standard DCDC converter are not that good, and they tend to be noisy.

I'm sure a suitably expensive wall-wart can be be made for rhe people who work with CAT3 1000V on their workbench.

(...are there any?)

Away from the bench? Close the little DC input door and use the battery.

[Fungus]

The only cost-effective, safe way I can think of doing this is some sort of Qi-like wireless power mat (or perhaps just Qi itself since the charging mats are out there) and I'm not sure you want that on your bench when you are measuring stuff.  Or maybe it works fine and doesn't interfere with anything not right on top of it.  Perhaps Aneng will come out with it first! 

A Qi-like power supply that attaches to the meter with a magnet? Sounds good to me...

(Maybe the meter could increase the internal clock speed and auto-range really fast, too.  )

[Markus2801A]

What would you add?

There's not really any point in adding digits without temperature control and a heated voltage reference would take time to warm up and use a lot of batteries. People don't want that in handhelds.

Yes you're absolutely right, heated voltage reference etc. would be a no go for portable meters.

I would update the displays of all high end Multimeters to high resolution with excellent contrast etc.! It should be possible because so many cellphones have superior displays. So why don't add a higher resolution color display to the high end DMM`s?
Also, yes, usability. Progress development in Menu structure GUI etc.

[bdunham7]

A Qi-like power supply that attaches to the meter with a magnet? Sounds good to me...

Ummm....there's a small problem with that setup...

[HKJ]

I would update the displays of all high end Multimeters to high resolution with excellent contrast etc.! It should be possible because so many cellphones have superior displays. So why don't add a higher resolution color display to the high end DMM`s?
Also, yes, usability. Progress development in Menu structure GUI etc.

The problem with that is power consumption, a mobile phone do not last 300+ hours on a few AA/AAA batteries, but a multimeter with a simple LCD display do.
I checked many of the high-end meters here: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMHigh-end%20UK.html and some of them do have graphical display.

[Fungus]

so many cellphones have superior displays. So why don't add a higher resolution color display to the high end DMM`s?

Simple: Battery life.

Cellphones have 3500mAh+ batteries and last less than a day if you use them constantly. I wouldn't want that in a multimeter.

[Fungus]

A Qi-like power supply that attaches to the meter with a magnet? Sounds good to me...

Ummm....there's a small problem with that setup...

It's just this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001171058433.html

[Markus2801A]

but I think cellphones do have more energy demand because of their OS and things they do like GPS, internet etc.
that wouldn't be the Case in a Multimeter. Also Apple proved it is possible to create RISC with very low energy demand.
So if they engineer it correctly it should be possible to last more than a day :-)

[HKJ]

but I think cellphones do have more energy demand because of their OS and things they do like GPS, internet etc.
that wouldn't be the Case in a Multimeter. Also Apple proved it is possible to create RISC with very low energy demand.
So if they engineer it correctly it should be possible to last more than a day :-)

UNI-T181 will probably last more than a day (I have not checked) and has a good graphical display and like phones it use a special LiIon battery.

[bdunham7]

It's just this: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001171058433.html

That's all good.  It's the magnet that's going to be the issue....