Author Topic: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?  (Read 34191 times)

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Offline NeperTopic starter

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Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« on: August 27, 2021, 05:48:58 pm »
I've just bought and returned two benchtop DMMs within a week of each other, both around 200 euros: a UNI-T UT8803E and a OWON XDM2041.

While the first had the worst software I've ever seen in any appliance and should never have left a factory with a half-decent QA department, the second was still no better than my 25 year old Finest 7130. The OWON and the Finest both have trouble measuring resistance over about 200 kohms. The displayed value jumps up and down, with the old one even switching ranges.

With the exception of the bigger and clearer displays, the two modern DMMs were barely as good or even worse than the old one. Still, the Finest's display is losing contrast and its membrane keys are disintegrating. So, I need something new, sooner or later. 

Earlier this year, I've bought a Rigol DS1102ZE scope and I'm quite happy with it. It does all I need and a lot more and it takes up a fifth of the space of my old Philips PM3219 analog storage scope. The Rigol cost under 250 euros.

The next step up in DMM prices seems to be around 400 euros and I have no idea if those are any good.

Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?

Ralf
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2021, 05:57:21 pm »
Look at the Vichy VC8145
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Offline NeperTopic starter

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2021, 05:59:41 pm »
Unavailable in Europe unless you want to import one from the US or China.

Ralf
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2021, 06:04:51 pm »
Unavailable in Europe unless you want to import one from the US or China.
And what is the problem with that? Order it and it will get delivered. Aliexpress includes the VAT nowadays so no surprises with customs charges. I have a couple of VC8145 DMMs as daily drivers for about a decade now. BTW: I also have a Keysight 34461A 6.5 digit DMM but that sees way less use.

Another brand to consider is GW Instek but that will take you into the 300 to 400 euro range.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 06:35:14 pm by nctnico »
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Offline HKJ

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2021, 06:43:00 pm »
A bench DMM has some advantages over a handheld DMM, but you can also find areas where a handheld is better.

Some of the advantages of a bench DMM (I do not look at cheap bench DMMs that is basically a handheld in a bench box):
Always works, it will never run out of batteries.
Statistic: can show min/max/average/sdev for any range.
Charts: Can show a value over time or distribution of values.
Log to USB
Computer connections
Adjustment of sample rate, filtering, etc.
Good precision.

The general issue with test equipment pricing is that China has found out that there is a market in test equipment, but not all manufacture has got the memo about about user interface being part of the equation. The general idea is that more functions is better (I sort of agree with that), but making them logical in the user interface is lacking.
I have a few Chinese bench DMM, one is the ET3240, it has a lot functions, but you really play around with the meter to find all of them (Keysight & Keithley is much more logical) and interfacing it to a computer is not just to follow the manual.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2021, 06:45:23 pm »
...
Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?
...

The most significant factor in price is "how much should I charge to maximize profit".  There are exceptions, of course.

For any item, if a customer values the item more than the value of the price of the item, a transaction will occur.  If I value $30 more than I value that beautiful flower bouquet, I wont buy that -- but, the next day, may be I have a date with a beautify lady and want some flowers for the lucky lady.  So, I may value that very same flower bouquet more than I value $30 dollars in my pocket.  A transaction will occur.  But then may be I need that $30 to buy the theater ticket and I value being able to take my date to the theater more than the flowers, so ...  We do similar calculations all the time.  Cost vs benefit.

It follows that the lower the price is, the easier it is for the customer to value the benefit over the cost.  Correspondingly, the lower the price, the lower the profit.  That is a calculation that manufacturers, distributors (bulk-sellers) and retailers do all the time.

The knobs and whatever make the thing functional and functionality increases the value that widget can provide.  But a manufacturer doesn't worry about how many knobs, attachments, wires, or copper it contains.  A manufacturer worry about if I charge X, I will sell Y units resulting in Z profit.  What should X be to get the maximum Z. 

The number of unit sold is not always in that equation, as long as Y is > 0 (ie: someone will buy).  Making it exclusive (a smaller Y) may actually increase customer-perceived value so I can have a bigger X.  That may actually increase total profit.  Luxury items exist for that reason.

So there, price has nothing to do with knobs, functionality, so on.  Those are just a way that may increase customer perceived (or actual) functionality thus the perceived value by the customer.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 06:48:08 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline NeperTopic starter

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2021, 07:02:14 pm »
In my book, it's exactly knobs, connectors, rotary encoders and switches - mechanics in general - that cost a lot in production. Far more than electronics. And they're more expensive to mount. This is why they've all done away with pots, switches and the like in favour of membrane keyboards and menues.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2021, 07:08:26 pm by Neper »
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Online Fungus

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2021, 07:15:43 pm »
What decent 'scope can you buy for 200 Euros?  :popcorn:
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2021, 07:30:10 pm »
Don't forget that scope is to show waveforms not to actually MEASURE anything.. Bench meter is as good as it reference and reference is as good as its resistors... I'll suggest some exposure of volt nuttery talk in metrology section

Just be warned it is expensive decease. :scared:
 
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Offline NeperTopic starter

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2021, 08:45:12 pm »
As I wrote in the first post of this thread:

Quote
Earlier this year, I've bought a Rigol DS1102ZE scope and I'm quite happy with it. It does all I need and a lot more and it takes up a fifth of the space of my old Philips PM3219 analog storage scope. The Rigol cost under 250 euros.

Well, I suppose next you'll tell me that this isn't a decent scope, right?

Ralf
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Offline nctnico

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2021, 10:05:36 pm »
A bench DMM has some advantages over a handheld DMM, but you can also find areas where a handheld is better.

Some of the advantages of a bench DMM (I do not look at cheap bench DMMs that is basically a handheld in a bench box):
Always works, it will never run out of batteries.
Statistic: can show min/max/average/sdev for any range.
Charts: Can show a value over time or distribution of values.
Log to USB
Computer connections
Adjustment of sample rate, filtering, etc.
Good precision.
Do you need all that? It is very tempting to pile on all kinds of features. Somehow people seem to think bench DMMs should have all kinds of bells and whistles. In reality a bench DMM versus handheld is basically powercord versus batteries and stackable versus needing space on a bench. Thats it! The reason for me to buy the VC8145s was stackable and no batteries. Didn't need any extra features compared to typical handhelds (even though the VC8145 can do stuff like averaging/min-max and computer communication).
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Online Fungus

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2021, 04:20:22 am »
Quote
Earlier this year, I've bought a Rigol DS1102ZE scope and I'm quite happy with it. It does all I need and a lot more and it takes up a fifth of the space of my old Philips PM3219 analog storage scope. The Rigol cost under 250 euros.

Well, I suppose next you'll tell me that this isn't a decent scope, right?

No, I'm saying it isn't cheaper than those DMMs.

Don't forget that scope is to show waveforms not to actually MEASURE anything.

Yes but they have real screens and a lot more processing power than a DMM.

At the end of the day the price is down to supply/demand/marketing. Oscilloscopes are a much hotter market than bench DMMs so the price is proportionally lower..

 

Offline 1audio

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2021, 05:44:56 am »
Now that scopes have such powerful measurement capabilities for may troubleshooting tasks you do not need a DVM at all. How often do you need more that 3 1/2 digits of resolution for testing? You just can't measure resistance through a scope probe so you need a meter.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2021, 06:05:36 am »
Now that scopes have such powerful measurement capabilities for may troubleshooting tasks you do not need a DVM at all. How often do you need more that 3 1/2 digits of resolution for testing?
Resolution is limiting in some situations, but the accuracy difference between scopes and DMMs is roughly proportional to the resolution (relatively balanced performance specs). DMMs quickly jump to 0.1% or 0.01% accuracy and across wider temperature ranges/less calibration.
Don't forget that scope is to show waveforms not to actually MEASURE anything.. Bench meter is as good as it reference and reference is as good as its resistors... I'll suggest some exposure of volt nuttery talk in metrology section
Well said, its interesting that we're not seeing more online auto-calibration in DMMs to get around some of that.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2021, 06:23:14 am »
As I wrote in the first post of this thread:

Quote
Earlier this year, I've bought a Rigol DS1102ZE scope and I'm quite happy with it. It does all I need and a lot more and it takes up a fifth of the space of my old Philips PM3219 analog storage scope. The Rigol cost under 250 euros.

Well, I suppose next you'll tell me that this isn't a decent scope, right?

Ralf

Define "decent".

The Rigol is an excellent value, it provides a lot of bang for the buck and is very good for what it is, an entry level scope, but it is still an entry level scope. The Rigol is to oscilloscopes what one of the $30-$60 handheld meters is to DMMs. It's decent, but it's not a Tek, Keysight, etc. If you want a nice professional bench meter, be prepared to pay more than what a low end DSO costs.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2021, 06:24:34 am »
Now that scopes have such powerful measurement capabilities for may troubleshooting tasks you do not need a DVM at all. How often do you need more that 3 1/2 digits of resolution for testing? You just can't measure resistance through a scope probe so you need a meter.

When I'm troubleshooting something I tend to rely very heavily on the diode test function of my meter, I can't do that with a scope.
 

Offline Markus2801A

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2021, 08:00:28 am »
hm, I thought a bench DMM is used if you need much more precision/accuracy and a few other things (maybe LAN interface and additional things) handheld units can't do.
I know precision and accuracy is not as ease as to say handheld < Benchtop, but for me it would only make sense to have a decent bench top unit if it has better benefits regarding specs accuracy, precision, usability than any of the high end handheld units do have?

Am I wrong? Really I appreciate every opinion as I'm also considering in upgrading my equipment with an additional bench top unit but it has to be "better" than my handheld unit.
I have the Metrix 3293BT, so I think it's a decent high end handheld unit as the higher priced Fluke 289 or Gossen Metrawatt are.

PS.: The only benefit of using a handheld meter packet into a bench top case like the mentioned cheaper VC or Uni-T models is: stackable no need to replace batteries, maybe 4W R measurement?
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2021, 08:16:22 am »
hm, I thought a bench DMM is used if you need much more precision/accuracy and a few other things (maybe LAN interface and additional things) handheld units can't do.
I know precision and accuracy is not as ease as to say handheld < Benchtop, but for me it would only make sense to have a decent bench top unit if it has better benefits regarding specs accuracy, precision, usability than any of the high end handheld units do have?

Am I wrong? Really I appreciate every opinion as I'm also considering in upgrading my equipment with an additional bench top unit but it has to be "better" than my handheld unit.
I have the Metrix 3293BT, so I think it's a decent high end handheld unit as the higher priced Fluke 289 or Gossen Metrawatt are.

PS.: The only benefit of using a handheld meter packet into a bench top case like the mentioned cheaper VC or Uni-T models is: stackable no need to replace batteries, maybe 4W R measurement?

Hi Markus,

I bought Metrix MT3293 because i think it is better than both Fluke 289 and GM high end . GM is not graphic, and F 289 shows its age.
It's been fantastic so far. It is my primary meter now, right next BM869 that has much BIGGER numbers.... ^-^

Bench meters? Well power is not a problem to me, Metrix can work plugged in, and never had a problem with batteries on other meters... When they go you change them and that is all. I always have spares because I have dozens of devices that run on them.

So for me bench meters are all about higher precision and 4W ohms.
 
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Offline Markus2801A

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2021, 10:03:42 am »
Hi Markus,

I bought Metrix MT3293 because i think it is better than both Fluke 289 and GM high end . GM is not graphic, and F 289 shows its age.
It's been fantastic so far. It is my primary meter now, right next BM869 that has much BIGGER numbers.... ^-^

Bench meters? Well power is not a problem to me, Metrix can work plugged in, and never had a problem with batteries on other meters... When they go you change them and that is all. I always have spares because I have dozens of devices that run on them.

So for me bench meters are all about higher precision and 4W ohms.

Exactly I'm with you! The Metrix (newer version yellow Chauvin Arnoux) is a great device and is much more up2date than Fluke 289 and Gossen - dunno why they don't upgrade (e.g. for Fluke 289) their high end handheld series with better Display, graphing etc. that shouldn't cost to much todays!

But besides the great performance of the Metrix, what would be a great addition bench top Multimeter? of course with higher accuracy, resolution features etc?
I'm thinking of the Keithley DM6500 maybe?  ;)
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Offline tooki

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2021, 10:37:47 am »
The next step up in DMM prices seems to be around 400 euros and I have no idea if those are any good.

Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?
Because the complexity in a cheap scope is in the software and user interface, while the complexity in a bench DMM is in the bits of hardware deeper in the box.


Most bench DMMs focus on accuracy and precision. Maintaining high accuracy becomes exponentially harder as you increase precision. Noise becomes a huge issue to deal with. And you want all this while having decent input protection.

Oscilloscopes are not designed for high accuracy or precision, because measuring is not their job. Their hardware complexity is from needing to support high speeds.

Consider this: a cheap oscilloscope (as well as most expensive ones) usually has an 8-bit ADC. Every sample is literally just one of 256 values (possible values 0-255). Consider an error of 0.1%: that’d be less than a single step, so wouldn’t even change the sampled value and thus wouldn’t change the waveform at all. Also, take the absolute voltage difference each step in value represents: a low end scope like the Rigol DS1054Z goes down to 1mv/div at the lowest range 4mV/div at the lowest non-software-magnified range, times 8 divisions, so the 256 values represent 8mV 32mV, thus 31.25μV 125μV per step.

A modest 5.5 digit multimeter might be 110000 counts (i.e. a dynamic range of 1:220000, since it can be positive or negative). The accuracy required is thus vastly larger: the same 0.1% error now represents 1100 counts! As you add digits, the effort in circuit design and component quality required to achieve accuracy on your least significant digit becomes enormous. Even just the cheap 4.5 digit OWON XDM2041 you mentioned needs to discriminate 1μV per step in its lowest range — almost 32 125 times more precise than the scope.

DMMs do part of this by being much slower. A cheap scope might measure 1 billion samples per second, while even a high end bench DMM will usually only measure up to a few thousand times per second. An 8.5 digit bench meter can take seconds for a single measurement at the settings with the smallest error.


A cheap scope certainly requires care in design, too, due to the frequencies involved, but nonetheless doesn’t need to be particularly accurate hardware. So you can get away with cheap components in many places. What you need is speed, and as it turns out, modern digital electronics are really good at giving us speed for cheap. So a comparatively simple analog front end feeds into comparatively inexpensive digital electronics that use fancy software to run a big screen and the accompanying buttons.


A DMM can’t really use high speed digital electronics to significantly improve its accuracy; the analog part has to get it right, right from the start, and that costs money. That analog part also generally handles much higher maximum voltages (typically ±1000V on a DMM vs ±300V on a scope).


(Some modern bench DMMs can operate somewhere in between, like the Keithley DMM6500, being able to measure 1 million times per second — but only in 16 bits, which is just 65536 different values, not the 2.4 million different values it can tell apart at slow speeds.)

Edit: Edited to reflect 2N3055’s correction regarding the Rigol’s hardware.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2021, 04:16:03 pm by tooki »
 
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2021, 11:20:30 am »
The next step up in DMM prices seems to be around 400 euros and I have no idea if those are any good.

Why the heck is a decent DMM with far fewer knobs, connectors, a simpler display and much less processor power more expensive than a perfectly useable scope?
Because the complexity in a cheap scope is in the software and user interface, while the complexity in a bench DMM is in the bits of hardware deeper in the box.


Most bench DMMs focus on accuracy and precision. Maintaining high accuracy becomes exponentially harder as you increase precision. Noise becomes a huge issue to deal with. And you want all this while having decent input protection.

Oscilloscopes are not designed for high accuracy or precision, because measuring is not their job. Their hardware complexity is from needing to support high speeds.

Consider this: a cheap oscilloscope (as well as most expensive ones) usually has an 8-bit ADC. Every sample is literally just one of 256 values (possible values 0-255). Consider an error of 0.1%: that’d be less than a single value, so wouldn’t even change the sampled value and thus wouldn’t change the waveform at all. Also, take the absolute voltage difference each step in value represents: a low end scope like the Rigol DS1054Z goes down to 1mv/div at the lowest range, times 8 divisions, so the 256 values represent 8mV, thus 31.25μV per step.

A modest 5.5 digit multimeter might be 110000 counts (i.e. a dynamic range of 1:220000, since it can be positive or negative). The accuracy required is thus vastly larger: the same 0.1% error now represents 1100 counts! As you add digits, the effort in circuit design and component quality required to achieve accuracy on your least significant digit becomes enormous. Even just the cheap 4.5 digit OWON XDM2041 you mentioned needs to discriminate 1μV per step in its lowest range — almost 32 times more precise than the scope.

DMMs do part of this by being much slower. A cheap scope might measure 1 billion samples per second, while even a high end bench DMM will usually only measure up to a few thousand times per second. An 8.5 digit bench meter can take seconds for a single measurement at the settings with the smallest error.


A cheap scope certainly requires care in design, too, due to the frequencies involved, but nonetheless doesn’t need to be particularly accurate hardware. So you can get away with cheap components in many places. What you need is speed, and as it turns out, modern digital electronics are really good at giving us speed for cheap. So a comparatively simple analog front end feeds into comparatively inexpensive digital electronics that use fancy software to run a big screen and the accompanying buttons.


A DMM can’t really use high speed digital electronics to significantly improve its accuracy; the analog part has to get it right, right from the start, and that costs money. That analog part also generally handles much higher maximum voltages (typically ±1000V on a DMM vs ±300V on a scope).


(Some modern bench DMMs can operate somewhere in between, like the Keithley DMM6500, being able to measure 1 million times per second — but only in 16 bits, which is just 65536 different values, not the 2.4 million different values it can tell apart at slow speeds.)

Rigol DS1054Z actually goes down to 4mv/div at the lowest range. Less that that is software zoom. So on 1 mV/div it is a 6 bit scope.  125 uV/ step
 
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Offline NeperTopic starter

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2021, 12:29:36 pm »
Because the complexity in a cheap scope is in the software and user interface, while the complexity in a bench DMM is in the bits of hardware deeper in the box.

Thanks a lot for the first comprehensive and sensible explanation I've seen on this subject.

@all others: Thanks for your contributions. My reasons for wanting a bench meter are simple: the real estate on my workbench is very limited, so something to be put higher up is needed. And no, I don't run a calibration lab. 0.1 percent is absolutely fine with me, so I have no need for 6 or more digit resolution and it doesn't ned to be better than the average handheld meter. The functions and precision of those 200 euro DMMs would be fine if it weren't for the terrible software and the unsteady display on higher resistance measurements. Besides, I was shocked to see that they're no better than my 25 year old DMM, supposedly of Taiwanese origin.

Ralf
« Last Edit: August 28, 2021, 12:46:31 pm by Neper »
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Online 2N3055

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2021, 12:38:26 pm »
Hi Markus,

I bought Metrix MT3293 because i think it is better than both Fluke 289 and GM high end . GM is not graphic, and F 289 shows its age.
It's been fantastic so far. It is my primary meter now, right next BM869 that has much BIGGER numbers.... ^-^

Bench meters? Well power is not a problem to me, Metrix can work plugged in, and never had a problem with batteries on other meters... When they go you change them and that is all. I always have spares because I have dozens of devices that run on them.

So for me bench meters are all about higher precision and 4W ohms.

Exactly I'm with you! The Metrix (newer version yellow Chauvin Arnoux) is a great device and is much more up2date than Fluke 289 and Gossen - dunno why they don't upgrade (e.g. for Fluke 289) their high end handheld series with better Display, graphing etc. that shouldn't cost to much todays!

But besides the great performance of the Metrix, what would be a great addition bench top Multimeter? of course with higher accuracy, resolution features etc?
I'm thinking of the Keithley DM6500 maybe?  ;)

That is not easy question.

For approx 5 years I have DM3068 from Rigol. It works well. I wish screen was bigger. I use it mostly for 4W Ohms, and for more precise measurements. I use it with scripts too, for longer logging.

I was thinking of upgrading to Keysight 34465 or Keithley DM6500, mainly because they have slightly tighter drift specs, some more features, bigger screen.
34465 has autocal, that would make a difference in my lab that doesn't have tight temp control.
DM6500 actually has tighter DC voltage specs on some ranges.
34465 has AC measurements implemented using sampling and not RMS converter chip. That makes it much better for AC measurements.
DM6500 has more modern GUI and touch screen. It is also less software stable because of all that complexity and not having all the buttons is a problem sometimes..
DM6500 is quite cheaper than 34465...

Then there is a question of service and calibration. Keysight has great facility in Germany and their prices for calibration are better than Keithley. OTOH, recently it seems Keysight is refusing service to individuals with privately owned equipment. You will be served only if it is a company. So there is that, I wonder if they might drop all small customers soon, even small companies..
There are third party calibration labs that might be able to calibrate/adjust both of those for a good price.

I want to try Siglent SDM3065X to see if I like it.. It is clearly inspired by Keysight 3446x series concept, which is not a bad thing.

If you're going to use 6.5 digit meter to full potential, you also need to make or buy environmental monitor. Both your meters and DUT will clearly show changes in temp and humidity. You will need to log those together with measurements to look for correlations. An then you start going down the rabbit hole of Voltnutting...

And few years passed by and I didn't upgrade, because I didn't have immediate need.
 
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Offline Markus2801A

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2021, 01:11:43 pm »
And no, I don't run a calibration lab. 0.1 percent is absolutely fine with me, so I have no need for 6 or more digit resolution and it doesn't ned to be better than the average handheld meter.

That`s my problem: I don't need it but I want it! More digits more accuracy, precision and of course trueness. Just to show how the different Meters read values and provide good information and examples to my student :-) (as I'm a teacher and preparing material for my students at home because equipment in school is not as good as the one I buy from my own money - yes I'm a little crazy I know).

@neper: have you already made a decision on which device you will go for, or which ones now come into close consideration

...
I was thinking of upgrading to Keysight 34465 or Keithley DM6500, mainly because they have slightly tighter drift specs, some more features, bigger screen.
34465 has autocal, that would make a difference in my lab that doesn't have tight temp control.
DM6500 actually has tighter DC voltage specs on some ranges.
34465 has AC measurements implemented using sampling and not RMS converter chip. That makes it much better for AC measurements.
DM6500 has more modern GUI and touch screen. It is also less software stable because of all that complexity and not having all the buttons is a problem sometimes..
DM6500 is quite cheaper than 34465...

Then there is a question of service and calibration. Keysight has great facility in Germany and their prices for calibration are better than Keithley. OTOH, recently it seems Keysight is refusing service to individuals with privately owned equipment. You will be served only if it is a company. So there is that, I wonder if they might drop all small customers soon, even small companies..
There are third party calibration labs that might be able to calibrate/adjust both of those for a good price.

I want to try Siglent SDM3065X to see if I like it.. It is clearly inspired by Keysight 3446x series concept, which is not a bad thing.

If you're going to use 6.5 digit meter to full potential, you also need to make or buy environmental monitor. Both your meters and DUT will clearly show changes in temp and humidity. You will need to log those together with measurements to look for correlations. An then you start going down the rabbit hole of Voltnutting...

And few years passed by and I didn't upgrade, because I didn't have immediate need.

@2N3055: I took Keysight, Keithley into consideration, thanks for the details. Also I will have a closer look at Siglent and maybe also the GW-Instek, what do you think?
Regarding calibration: yes I hope those devices are "stable enough", so I don't have to calibrate them over the years and still get good results! I think it should be possible, since im not really running a Lab which needs calibrated devices for any quality and other reasons etc... (Im not selling something or earning my money with devices only with teaching")
Teacher for electrical Engineering @ HTL and Werkmeisterschule :-)
 

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Re: Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2021, 01:18:16 pm »

@2N3055: I took Keysight, Keithley into consideration, thanks for the details. Also I will have a closer look at Siglent and maybe also the GW-Instek, what do you think?
Regarding calibration: yes I hope those devices are "stable enough", so I don't have to calibrate them over the years and still get good results! I think it should be possible, since im not really running a Lab which needs calibrated devices for any quality and other reasons etc... (Im not selling something or earning my money with devices only with teaching")

In all truthfulness, I would recommend to calibrate it at least ONCE, after 3-5 years. Because whatever you hear even big brands will drift a bit in first 1-2 years. After 3 years they will be mostly stable to few PPMs of whatever it is they mean to be for the rest of their multimeter life..So if you calibrate after 3-5 years, then you might keep really good accuracy for years to come. Stable and better than outside boundaries of specifications. Much better.
 
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