Why is a decent benchtop DMM more expensive than a scope?

[kcbrown]

The manual for those says (c) 2002

Really?  I didn't look at that.  I went by the copyright on the datasheet, figuring that it was their advertising.

The 279FC shows a March 2016 date in its manual, so my point remains standing even if the 787B and 789 are removed from the equation.

[Fungus]

The 279FC shows a March 2016 date in its manual, so my point remains standing even if the 787B and 789 are removed from the equation.

Yeah, the thermal camera one is relatively recent.

I remember the EEVBLOG thread on it so it's definitely not 20 years ago.

[bdunham7]

The whole FC line is fairly recent, I believe.  Also, I think this is new-ish:

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/portable-oscilloscopes/mda-550

Edit:  And I intended to include this:

https://us.flukecal.com/products/electrical-calibration/bench-multimeters/8588a-reference-multimeter

[kcbrown]

The whole FC line is fairly recent, I believe.  Also, I think this is new-ish:

https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/portable-oscilloscopes/mda-550

Yep, that's from their 190 Series III line, which is new.

Fluke has several products that they've released in the last 3 years alone.  So claims that Fluke is stagnant are just false.  Their target market is not hobbyists, and never has been, that I'm aware of. 

Truly good companies find their market niche and stick with it for as long as that market remains viable.  This is what Fluke has done.  It just happens that their niche (industrial and professional field workers) doesn't intersect the market that Fungus wants them to target.  If hobbyists weren't so price sensitive, then a company like Fluke could target the hobbyist market.  But the kind of support and quality that Fluke produces costs money, and that obviously has to be passed on to the buyer.  That raises the price beyond what hobbyists will usually pay, so it's not surprising that there is no company with Fluke's reputation that plays in the hobbyist market.

Keysight is the only company I can think of with anything like Fluke's reputation that even pretends to play in the hobbyist market, but even they don't really play in that market, and Keysight's most recent actions with respect to individual buyers only underscores that.  I think they target the educational market more than anything else with their low-end stuff.

[Fungus]

But the kind of support and quality that Fluke produces costs money, and that obviously has to be passed on to the buyer.

As noted earlier: Fluke sells $100 meters with Fluke build quality and an ordinary "free from defects" warranty.

How many people need Fluke 'support' beyond that level anyway?

[kcbrown]

But the kind of support and quality that Fluke produces costs money, and that obviously has to be passed on to the buyer.

As noted earlier: Fluke sells $100 meters with Fluke build quality and an ordinary "free from defects" warranty.

So what?  That obviously isn't the case for all their meters, is it?  You're attempting to use exceptions to the rule as a substitute for the rule.  Unless you're talking about the 107, those $100 meters are targeted at limited international markets, and clearly have very different terms of support.  The 107 is $124 and there are a number of better-priced competitors with equivalent or better features and safety (for instance, the Greenlee DM-200A, which is clearly made by Brymen).

You don't seem to understand the purpose of the Fluke build quality.  It exists for two reasons:

1.  To maximize customer satisfaction, which results in a minimization of after-sale support costs
2.  To maintain Fluke's reputation

For that reason, Fluke maintains their build quality even in their meters that they target at the limited markets that their $100 meters are targeted at.

How many people need Fluke 'support' beyond that level anyway?

Obviously enough that they dominate the industrial and professional field markets in large part because of it.  I can't say how often people in those markets wind up actually making use of Fluke's support, but if you're a business and you absolutely depend on a piece of equipment, the mere existence of that kind of support will be enough to make the premium price worth it.  And in any case, providing such support does good things to a company's reputation, and Fluke knows this.

If Fluke could get away with lowering their support terms without having any impact on themselves, they obviously would.  They're a business, not a charity.  They don't spend money that isn't ultimately in their own best interests.  And providing exemplary support like they do costs them money.  They recover those costs, with profit, by pricing their meters as they do and targeting the markets they do in the way they do.

[bdunham7]

As noted earlier: Fluke sells $100 meters with Fluke build quality and an ordinary "free from defects" warranty.

How many people need Fluke 'support' beyond that level anyway?

Well, it's self-sorting isn't it?  If you think the $100 meter is just as good and don't value a support promise, you can buy that.  What is it you want?  A meter 'better' than the 87V without the lifetime warranty for less money?  Don't you already have that?

[Fungus]

If you think the $100 meter is just as good and don't value a support promise, you can buy that.

(round in circles)

The $100 meter is missing important features, Fluke carefully engineers it that way, you know it.

What is it you want?  A meter 'better' than the 87V without the lifetime warranty for less money?  Don't you already have that?

From other brands? Yes.

You'd think Fluke would be interested in that market share, but nope.

Whatever: Fluke will have to start playing the game eventually. Let's wait and see.

[bdunham7]

(round in circles)

The $100 meter is missing important features, Fluke carefully engineers it that way, you know it.

Oh yes, I forgot that part.  So you think that the 17B+, for example, has all the mechanical and electrical robustness of the 87V and Fluke could just make a few tweaks to the firmware and maybe a few upgraded components ($20 tops, of course) and produce something superior--but they don't for strategic reasons.  And that they will have to eventually because this segment of the market is vital to their future.

Why don't we just agree to disagree on all that?

From other brands? Yes.

Really?  After the BM789 thread?  Anyway, I was referring to your 89IV.

[james_s]

Has it been mentioned yet that there is a service manual with schematics for the 87?

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1505585/Fluke-87-V-An.html

Try fining one of those for a Bryman or other lower cost meter. A proper service manual for a tool I'm going to use potentially for decades is a substantial value, especially in this day and age where it's such a rare luxury. I'm willing to pay more for something that is meant to be repaired if it breaks.

[Fungus]

Oh yes, I forgot that part.  So you think that the 17B+, for example, has all the mechanical and electrical robustness of the 87V

Yep.  (and also the $100 15B+...)

and Fluke could just make a few tweaks to the firmware and maybe a few upgraded components ($20 tops, of course) and produce something superior--but they don't for strategic reasons.

Yep.

Aneng can make an entire meter that measures far better than a 17B+ (and even better than an 87V in some ways) for $20.

Why don't we just agree to disagree on all that?

Huh? Facts is facts. Aneng exists, the 17B+ has been put through the wringer.

From other brands? Yes.

Really?  After the BM789 thread?  Anyway, I was referring to your 89IV.

I was referring to my BM857s which is easily equal to the 87IV at measuring, but whatever.

If I can get those meters for $160 then where's the amazing $450 meter? For $450 there ought to be something awesome out there, not just a meter designed 25 years ago.

Heck, I've got a 40-year old meter (Fluke 8060A) that's better than the 87V at measuring stuff (eg. 200kHz TRMS).

[Fungus]

Has it been mentioned yet that there is a service manual with schematics for the 87?

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1505585/Fluke-87-V-An.html

Try fining one of those for a Bryman or other lower cost meter. A proper service manual for a tool I'm going to use potentially for decades is a substantial value, especially in this day and age where it's such a rare luxury. I'm willing to pay more for something that is meant to be repaired if it breaks.

Why would you need it? Don't Fluke just swap them with no questions asked?

(That's if they ever break in the first place, which they never do...)

[bdunham7]

Why would you need it? Don't Fluke just swap them with no questions asked?

No, they often repair them.  And there are scenarios that might not be covered by the warranty--and eventually the product goes obsolete and the warranty ends anyway.  So many years from now the manual might be nice to have.  There are multiple threads of people successfully repairing 30+ year old original 87 models.

[Fungus]

eventually the product goes obsolete and the warranty ends anyway.

The Fluke 87V will go obsolete?? 

[james_s]

No, they often repair them.  And there are scenarios that might not be covered by the warranty--and eventually the product goes obsolete and the warranty ends anyway.  So many years from now the manual might be nice to have.  There are multiple threads of people successfully repairing 30+ year old original 87 models.

I have lots of 20+ year old gear. I maintain all of my own equipment and I pick up the factory service manual whenever I can get it. It's a rare luxury these days, even a lot of the A-brand stuff doesn't give you that anymore. As long as I have parts available I can keep a piece of equipment working indefinitely. I really hate the disposable products that are so common today.

[tooki]

It is easy to assign irrationality as the cause for others actions when you don't understand them, or try to apply a limited understanding and don't get the result you expect.  What is really going on is that you simply don't understand the reasons for what you are observing.  That applies to cola drinkers, politics and DMM buyers. And even if you studied it with some particular methodology, you still would only have a limited and likely flawed understanding.

So, so, so true!!!

This is the reason the traditional IT world, the stock market, and the media were/are always surprised by Apple’s success: they didn’t (and still don’t) understand the company and its customers, so they assign its success (erroneously) to “fashion” and “stupid” customers (i.e. exactly the “irrationality” you mention), despite all the clues that this isn’t the reason.

What flummoxes me is that people won’t budge from their positions even if you provide incontrovertible evidence that either their core premise or their data is wrong. I mean, I certainly have strongly held opinions, but if the data clearly shows the contrary, then I reevaluate and change my opinion accordingly.

[tooki]

Who mentioned a chemical plant?  - what about a decent sized electronics lab.

Electronics labs definitely are not the target market for the Fluke 87.

[tooki]

I don't really even understand the discussion of cost here, we're not talking a $20 tool vs a $20,000 tool, it's $450 vs maybe $250, that's nothing. And that's ignoring the fact that the slightly higher price buys you the reputation and support.

That's true, the cost is really secondary. The main point was why Fluke is so stagnated.

Where's the meters that persuade people like me to part with $450? Why doesn't Fluke have any ongoing R&D?

A refresh of the 87V every decade or so doesn't seem out of line, nor does a new model every now and again.

And that meter is basically the 28 II, later also sold as the 87V MAX so people realize this.

But they keep the original 87V around because it keeps selling. Does it even matter why? It does, and they don’t appear to have any trouble getting components to build them, so what’s the motivation to discontinue it? (Your offended sensibilities do not constitute a valid reason.)

[james_s]

This is the reason the traditional IT world, the stock market, and the media were/are always surprised by Apple’s success: they didn’t (and still don’t) understand the company and its customers, so they assign its success (erroneously) to “fashion” and “stupid” customers (i.e. exactly the “irrationality” you mention), despite all the clues that this isn’t the reason.

Well there is an element of truth to that. Apple products are absolutely a fashion statement/status symbol for many of their customers, that isn't why *I* own some Apple products but clearly for many people it is. A lot of their customers are not particularly technical people and some of those are not necessarily very intelligent, but obviously that doesn't mean that all of their customers are. People have different reasons for choosing things, just like some people buy a Fluke because they think it makes them look like they know what they're doing.

[Bassman59]

Who mentioned a chemical plant?  - what about a decent sized electronics lab.

Electronics labs definitely are not the target market for the Fluke 87.

While that might be true, one of my co-workers has an 87 on his bench. We're the R&D group. So I guess his bench is part of an electronics lab. (It's his personal meter, which he's had forever.)

[Fungus]

But they keep the original 87V around because it keeps selling. Does it even matter why? It does, and they don’t appear to have any trouble getting components to build them, so what’s the motivation to discontinue it? (Your offended sensibilities do not constitute a valid reason.)

I never said they should discontinue it, I'm wondering why they stopped evolving it.

[Fungus]

This is the reason the traditional IT world, the stock market, and the media were/are always surprised by Apple’s success: they didn’t (and still don’t) understand the company and its customers, so they assign its success (erroneously) to “fashion” and “stupid” customers (i.e. exactly the “irrationality” you mention), despite all the clues that this isn’t the reason.

Come on. You can't deny that "fashion" exists or that Apple exploits it.

Also that EEVBLOG #2 had Dave waving a Fluke 87V around.  (EEVBLOG #1 was the Rigol DS1052E)

I would be willing to bet that the main reason a company might switch to Amprobe, Greenlee or the like is that they are less attractive to thieves.  Other than that, for an organization large enough to need that many meters, the money is peanuts considering the warranty and the perceptions of the employees--even if the devices themselves were actually equivalent.

(emphasis mine)

If people are thieving them it's because the covet the Fluke, not because they need the meter at home.

[Dubbie]

I would argue that Apple doesn't follow fashions at all.

Their devices look exactly how they want them to look, they don't give a crap about the latest fashions.
Also, fashions change with the seasons, whereas apples devices change slowly and in small steps.

One area where I would agree that the design is influenced by fashion is the watches. but they are much more of a fashion accessory as well as a tech gadget.

[kcbrown]

I never said they should discontinue it, I'm wondering why they stopped evolving it.

If you have any engineering background at all, you should know the answer to this.

When you've got something that basically works, there are always far more ways to screw something up than there are to make it better.  So why would you stop evolving something?  Because you've gotten it to a state that any change you make to it will be more likely to make it worse at doing the job its market demands of it than to make it better.

The 87V is very well suited to its target market.  Its sales should make that plain to you.  When the 87V stops being that well suited, then Fluke will change it.

That said, the presence of the 87 MAX suggests that Fluke may have decided the 87V has already reached that point, and decided to supply a tweaked 28 II as its successor.  But the 87V will still be there because there will be lots of institutional customers that need to keep buying it.  Fluke may as well continue to build it as long as it sells, no?


So in light of the above, the real question is why you think the 87 MAX isn't a suitable successor for the market the 87V plays in, now that we've firmly established that you and hobbyists in general are not the target market for the 87V (hobbyists might purchase the 87V just like anyone could, but that's not the market Fluke intended the meter for).

[Fungus]

So in light of the above, the real question is why you think the 87 MAX isn't a suitable successor for the market the 87V plays in

It's not me that's saying that: We're now on the Nth page of a long thread of people saying the 87V can't be changed in any way without losing customers, that there's all sorts of people out there whose training manuals and procedures depend on having this exact multimeter.

The 87V Max isn't the same meter as the 87V, it's a rebadged 28 II that obviously only exists to suck in people who want a "Max" version of the 87V as some sort of fashion statement. Otherwise they'd just buy the 28 II, that's what it's for.