Author Topic: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?  (Read 6635 times)

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Offline popeTopic starter

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Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« on: November 30, 2023, 02:56:02 pm »
Like Siglent or Rigol for example?

Not big enough market?

I could really do with a LCR meter with scanner card and data logger software that doesn't cost a fortune  :)
 
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Offline HKJ

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2023, 03:19:08 pm »
Like Siglent or Rigol for example?

Not big enough market?

I could really do with a LCR meter with scanner card and data logger software that doesn't cost a fortune  :)

I have not heard about a LCR meter with a scanner card, it would also be rather complicated because the connections from the meter internals to the DUT has to be controlled.

For logging TestController supports a few LCR meters and it is free.
EEVBlog thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/
Download: https://lygte-info.dk/project/TestControllerIntro%20UK.html (Bottom of page)

 

Offline alm

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2023, 03:26:24 pm »
It seems LCR meters are quite specialized, with some of the big manufacuters like Wayne-Kerr and IET not making other general test equipment like DMMs, function generators or scopes. So I guess the overlap in technology between LCR meters and other basic test instruments is quite limited.

For a scanner, I would use an external multiplexer like those made by Keithley (7001) and HP/Agilent/Keysight. But performance might be a bit degraded, especially at higher frequencies.
 
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Online themadhippy

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2023, 03:46:14 pm »
why dont aston martin do a van or why dont kfc do a turkey burger ?very similar to there main market but different enough not to fit in with there business model
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2023, 04:30:37 pm »
Like Siglent or Rigol for example?

Not big enough market?

I could really do with a LCR meter with scanner card and data logger software that doesn't cost a fortune  :)

I have not heard about a LCR meter with a scanner card, it would also be rather complicated because the connections from the meter internals to the DUT has to be controlled.

For logging TestController supports a few LCR meters and it is free.
EEVBlog thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/
Download: https://lygte-info.dk/project/TestControllerIntro%20UK.html (Bottom of page)

Well, my requirements are rather simple but I don't know where to look for.

I make a lot of multi-tap audio transformers and inductors and I'm trying to find a way to measure their values (and ideally log them) without connecting and disconnecting all the time.

So, in the case of a multi-tap inductor, one end of the LCR would connect to the first pin of the coil and the scanner would connect to the remaining pins, if that makes sense...

Here's a similar set-up

 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2023, 06:09:11 pm »
For a transformer the inductance is not such an important property. The inductance depends on the drive level and such nonlinear effects are what may be interesting for audio. One may be better off with some more general audio test system and a suitable amplifier to drive the transformer.

The number of turns is one of the properties that usually has very little drift - so not that much need to log multiple taps over a longer time.
 
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2023, 06:20:40 pm »
For guitar pickups, inductance is one of the most important bits of info for determining output level. For them you also need at least 100kHz to test capacitance. Lower impedance pickups would need significantly higher frequencies available to properly test.
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2023, 06:25:08 pm »
Yeah well my main concern is the multi-tap inductors.  I make a lot and I need to match them so I've been looking for a faster/ better solution than measuring mnualy every single pin, writing it down and then trying to match them. It takes forever.
 

Offline Conrad Hoffman

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2023, 07:36:45 pm »
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2023, 07:41:09 pm »
GWInstek does some- https://www.gwinstek.com/en-US/products/layer/LCR_Meters

Their good LCR meters are the most expensive ones I've seen available commercially.

TongHui, SourceTronic, Hioki, are all high quality at a much lower budget (NOT cheap tho).

East Tester makes okay quality at mostly cheaper prices.
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2023, 08:16:18 pm »
Matrix also seem to have some decent LCR meters.

However, none of these meters address my needs AFAIK.
 

Online coromonadalix

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2023, 08:20:21 pm »
just a matter of building a test rig for the xformers wiring,  controle them as the same time you control your lcr to poll measurements,  once a day you do zero cal open and or closed

with some small mcu like arduino relays  etc ...  anything is possible if you want to bin parts
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2023, 08:36:50 pm »
  My guess is that all of the added wiring associated with all of the additional DUT (Device Under Test) circuits with a scanner card for multiple DUTs would play hell with the accuracy of an LC meter.  Resistance meters can compensate for added wiring by using a 4 wire Kelvin connection but I don't think that that is realistically possible on an LC meter when testing multiple DUTs.
 
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2023, 08:48:59 pm »
Matrix also seem to have some decent LCR meters.

The Matrix units I've seen were mostly knock-offs or rebrands of others.

In general, to get the best results with an LCR, you need to limit anything between the meter and the DUT. Cables have to be compensated properly, etc.
"Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before." - Steven Wright
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2023, 09:21:20 pm »
I would measure the inductance end to end, then connect a 1khz (for example) AC on one tap and measure the rms voltage on all the other taps. That is easy to multiplex, compared to what you have in mind.
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2023, 09:31:19 pm »
Thank you gents.

We're talking about a range from 10-20mH to 10H maximum and accuracy of less than 5% is more than enough so, perhaps wiring Vs accuracy is not an issue in such scenario(?)
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2023, 09:43:14 pm »
Thank you gents.

We're talking about a range from 10-20mH to 10H maximum and accuracy of less than 5% is more than enough so, perhaps wiring Vs accuracy is not an issue in such scenario(?)
I'm confused. Are you making random inductors and need to verify their specifications? Or are you making the same inductor over and over again, and you need to verify?
Because if the latter, then count the turns ratio?
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2023, 09:52:35 pm »
Thank you gents.

We're talking about a range from 10-20mH to 10H maximum and accuracy of less than 5% is more than enough so, perhaps wiring Vs accuracy is not an issue in such scenario(?)
I'm confused. Are you making random inductors and need to verify their specifications? Or are you making the same inductor over and over again, and you need to verify?
Because if the latter, then count the turns ratio?

I make multi-tap inductors with the same values and I want to match them in pairs. The closest they're matched the better. 

So, for example each inductor has 11 taps ranging from 10mH all the way up to 10H. 

Does it make sense?
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2023, 11:53:52 pm »
I don't know why either for example Fluke doesn't sell LCR meter but the Amprobe division does.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2023, 12:11:19 am »
Fluke did make an LCR meter back in 1996:  The PM6306.
https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/PM6306__umeng0200.pdf
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2023, 11:55:58 am »
After a bit more digging I found out that apparently such devices do exist and they're called "Automatic Transformer Testers" but they are rather expensive and almost impossible to find them in EU or in the West in general...

here's n example

 

Online Martin72

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2023, 11:58:59 am »
You can buy a transformer tester from sourcetronic:

https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/de/transformatorentester-st2829ax.html

Offline alm

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2023, 12:08:59 pm »
Wayne Kerr is a western brand that makes magnetics analyzers, but you may not like the price. You will probably need to provide your own switching between windings, though.

Offline HKJ

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2023, 12:47:14 pm »

For logging TestController supports a few LCR meters and it is free.
EEVBlog thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/
Download: https://lygte-info.dk/project/TestControllerIntro%20UK.html (Bottom of page)

Well, my requirements are rather simple but I don't know where to look for.

I make a lot of multi-tap audio transformers and inductors and I'm trying to find a way to measure their values (and ideally log them) without connecting and disconnecting all the time.

So, in the case of a multi-tap inductor, one end of the LCR would connect to the first pin of the coil and the scanner would connect to the remaining pins, if that makes sense...

Here's a similar set-up

You could build a computer controlled relay box and then do it from TestController. There is a project here https://lygte-info.dk/project/LogicOutputs%20UK.html for digital output that works with testController. Relace the optocopler with relays and you have a relay box. The project is nothing more than a Arduino driving the relays.
 

Offline popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2023, 01:21:56 pm »
thank you guys.

Martin, that's a bit beyond my budget and quite frankly overkill for my needs but thank you very much indeed for the recommendation  :-+

HKJ: I'm into analog electronics and last time I did something digital was when Arduino was first launched some 20 years ago :)

Having said that, I'm quite confident that I can find my way into making something like this. Thank you for the link? Looks very interesting.

So, if I'm not mistaken, all I need is to build the suggested arduino project and some LCR meter that is being supported by testController like the East Tester ones?

The idea is to automatically switch through the various pins, log the data and then I need to find a way to exprt the data into excel where the matching would be take place.

At least that's what I'm hoping for...  ;D
 


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