Author Topic: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?  (Read 6629 times)

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Offline HKJ

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2023, 01:31:10 pm »
HKJ: I'm into analog electronics and last time I did something digital was when Arduino was first launched some 20 years ago :)

Having said that, I'm quite confident that I can find my way into making something like this. Thank you for the link? Looks very interesting.

So, if I'm not mistaken, all I need is to build the suggested arduino project and some LCR meter that is being supported by testController like the East Tester ones?

The idea is to automatically switch through the various pins, log the data and then I need to find a way to exprt the data into excel where the matching would be take place.

At least that's what I'm hoping for...  ;D

That is correct and TC can easily export to Excel (It exports in CSV or TAB format and can use either , or . as decimal point).
TC can run scripts and selecting a relay, waiting a bit, log a value and do that for a couple of values is easy to do (I can help if necessary).
 
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Online popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2023, 01:56:18 pm »
HKJ: I'm into analog electronics and last time I did something digital was when Arduino was first launched some 20 years ago :)

Having said that, I'm quite confident that I can find my way into making something like this. Thank you for the link? Looks very interesting.

So, if I'm not mistaken, all I need is to build the suggested arduino project and some LCR meter that is being supported by testController like the East Tester ones?

The idea is to automatically switch through the various pins, log the data and then I need to find a way to exprt the data into excel where the matching would be take place.

At least that's what I'm hoping for...  ;D

That is correct and TC can easily export to Excel (It exports in CSV or TAB format and can use either , or . as decimal point).
TC can run scripts and selecting a relay, waiting a bit, log a value and do that for a couple of values is easy to do (I can help if necessary).

Thank you, much appreciated.

 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2023, 04:22:18 pm »
Fluke did make an LCR meter back in 1996:  The PM6306.
https://dam-assets.fluke.com/s3fs-public/PM6306__umeng0200.pdf

Technically that's a rebranded Philips...
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
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Offline alm

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2023, 04:31:40 pm »
I think there's also a Fluke / Philips LCR meter that looks identical to a Wayne Kerr model.

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2023, 06:17:09 pm »
You can buy a transformer tester from sourcetronic:

https://www.sourcetronic.com/shop/de/transformatorentester-st2829ax.html

Another rebranded TongHui unit. Obviously prefer SourceTronic for support though. 😉
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Offline Martin72

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2023, 09:36:52 pm »
That can only speak for Tonghui in terms of quality.

Offline MathWizard

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2023, 11:57:52 pm »
You know how there's the FY6900 100MHz Signal generator, it's even in a case like big name versions.

Does any body make cheap LCR or Impedance analyzer versions up to even 50MHz, that are in a box, and are not $20 ebay sig gen or LCR tester quality, but upto the FY6900 level ?

For hobby RF projects, I would want to test a part, at the intended frequency, or close to it, quicker than using a scope and AWG, etc. Or sweep the frequency too and get a plot of something, and even upload it to PC.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:11:04 am by MathWizard »
 

Offline Kosmic

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2023, 12:05:16 am »
Does any body make cheap LCR or Impedance analyzer versions up to even 50MHz, that are in a box, and are not $20 ebay sig gen or LCR tester quality, but upto the FY6900 level ?

The NanoVNA ? LCR meters rarely exceed 1Mhz. Normally with higher frequencies, people switch to a VNA.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:15:05 am by Kosmic »
 

Offline MathWizard

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2023, 12:14:57 am »
I have my eye on them too, I wish they were in a box. So they are a VNA, I have to research all this more because I can't remember if the NanoVNA needs an external signal source, or if it makes it's own. I'm pretty sure good SA's and VNA's have a good SG inside too.

I better look up Impedance analyzer's for sale and read their spec's, see what they do.


As a bench LCR meter, I wonder if something like this really has the mili-ohm spec's listed. I'd like something like these too, IF you could set the frequency to anything you wanted up to the max 100kHz. But yeah I want upto AM radio range at least.
https://www.banggood.com/Mustool-ET4410-Series-Desktop-Digital-LCR-Meter-Capacitance-Resistance-Impedance-Inductance-Measure-LCR-Bridge-LCR-Meter-p-1984698.html?utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_organic&gmcCountry=CA&utm_content=minha&utm_campaign=aceng-pmax-ca-en-pc&currency=CAD&cur_warehouse=CN&createTmp=1&utm_source=googleshopping&utm_medium=cpc_all&utm_content=nolan&utm_campaign=nolan-aceng-pmax-ca-all-230818&ad_id=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6_ve3f7xggMVmOnICh08MgK0EAQYBCABEgIQAfD_BwE
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:23:28 am by MathWizard »
 

Offline Kosmic

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2023, 12:17:00 am »
I have my eye on them too, I wish they were in a box. So they are a VNA, I have to research all this more because I can't remember if the NanoVNA needs an external signal source, or if it makes it's own.

I better look up Impedance analyzer's for sale and read their spec's, see what they do.

No, it's self contain. You can even get one of those cheap adapter board to quickly put different components in different configurations.

 
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Offline alm

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2023, 12:21:30 am »
In addition to the NanoVNA, also read up on the LiteVNA. I believe it's a bit higher performance and more stable (based on what joeqsmith wrote in the past), but also a bit more expensive than the NanoVNA.

Offline MathWizard

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2023, 12:31:31 am »
Yeah I have to get one, I don't need a Siglent SSA3021X+ yet, but I'm watching those too. Later this month I should get a Nano/version, from the legit sellers, not a clone.

For sub 50MHz stuff, and I stick to ebay/amazon level prices, about how much money would all the accessories cost for a Nano, and to hook up to the DUT , and make little test jig's or whatever ? Sometimes I see splitters used so your scope can be hooked up too. I know this stuff can add up real quickly.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2023, 12:45:30 am by MathWizard »
 

Offline Kosmic

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2023, 01:00:30 am »
The little board on the picture I posted is normally 5$US (with all connectors and stand).
 

Online popeTopic starter

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2023, 11:25:29 am »
I just pulled the trigger on a ET4510.

We shall see... 
 

Offline pdenisowski

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2023, 11:34:55 am »
LCR meters rarely exceed 1Mhz. Normally with higher frequencies, people switch to a VNA.

The R&S LCX goes up to 10 MHz

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/lcr-meters-and-impedance-analyzers/rs-lcx-lcr-meter_63493-1172288.html

The "LCR Meter vs VNA" question comes up often enough that we created a web page to help people decide (since we make both types of instruments)

https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/uk/products/test-and-measurement/essentials-test-equipment/dc-power-supplies/lcr-meter-vs-vna_256867.html
Test and Measurement Fundamentals video series on the Rohde & Schwarz YouTube channel:  https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKxVoO5jUTlvsVtDcqrVn0ybqBVlLj2z8
 
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Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2023, 05:15:34 am »
LCR meters rarely exceed 1Mhz. Normally with higher frequencies, people switch to a VNA.

Nah, that depends on who you're talking about- hobbyists, yeah. High freq LCRs are expensive AF. Many components are often tested with LCRs at higher frequencies.

The R&S LCX goes up to 10 MHz

Great, another $20,000 LCR I need to save up for. 😉
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Online tszaboo

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2023, 05:12:24 pm »
LCR meters rarely exceed 1Mhz. Normally with higher frequencies, people switch to a VNA.

Nah, that depends on who you're talking about- hobbyists, yeah. High freq LCRs are expensive AF. Many components are often tested with LCRs at higher frequencies.

The R&S LCX goes up to 10 MHz

Great, another $20,000 LCR I need to save up for. 😉
So is it time to make the NanoLRC, with a 4 inch screen and random specifications. Like having a part and making the specifications for that rather than the other way around?
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2023, 05:52:15 pm »
So is it time to make the NanoLRC, with a 4 inch screen and random specifications. Like having a part and making the specifications for that rather than the other way around?

I love the idea of a NanoLRC. It can live in the drawer with my TinySA Ultra.

I'm not sure what you're inferring from your second statement? Parts I was referring to being tested in higher frequencies are done that way because they need to be. The accuracy range of lower frequency LCR meters (even up to 200kHz) is quite limited. You can see this by looking at the accuracy reference charts that come with any respectable LCR.
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Online TimFox

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2023, 06:05:26 pm »
Why do you say that the accuracy of lower-frequency LCR meters is limited?
Even an inexpensive DE-5000 achieves 0.3% (+2 digits) over much of its range at 100 and 1000 Hz for capacitance.
See  https://www.deree.com.tw/de-5000-lcr-meter.html  for full specifications.
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2023, 06:13:04 pm »
Why do you say that the accuracy of lower-frequency LCR meters is limited?
Even an inexpensive DE-5000 achieves 0.3% (+2 digits) over much of its range at 100 and 1000 Hz for capacitance.
See  https://www.deree.com.tw/de-5000-lcr-meter.html  for full specifications.

That's not how it works. Switch to the tab that says specifications. For example, DCR is limited from 200Ω to 200MΩ with 1.0%+3 to 2%+3 accuracy respectively, and the sweet spot of .2%+2 between 2kΩ to 20kΩ. That's all low accuracy compared to lab grade LCR meters.

Here's the accuracy chart of my bench LCR:


The center box is the highest accuracy range. The farther out you go from there, the worse the accuracy gets (worst case on the chart still better than what the DE-5000 can do).
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Online TimFox

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2023, 06:22:53 pm »
Yes, there are limits to specified accuracy, just like any other measurement device.
Note that the DE-5000 costs roughly $140 US.
You can obviously obtain higher accuracy for more money.
I tried to link to the Specifications tab, but the result linked to the overall page with access to the Specifications tab, from which I excerpted some values and suggested that the interested reader look at the full specifications.

Before I retired, I used a QuadTech (now IET) 1920 LCR meter at work, which has better specifications and higher test frequencies (0.1% accuracy at sweet-spot settings, 1 MHz max frequency).
The current price is roughly $5500 (depending on options)  https://www.ietlabs.com/1900-lcr-meter.html
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 06:35:24 pm by TimFox »
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2023, 06:36:11 pm »
Yes, there are limits to specified accuracy, just like any other measurement device.

Right. That was my point; better accuracy and general usefulness requires a broader frequency range, and costs more. The DE-5000 is very limited, but also very good for its price.
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Offline alm

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2023, 07:21:41 pm »
better accuracy and general usefulness requires a broader frequency range, and costs more
Why do you think accuracy and frequency range are linked? Counter point: the GR 1620 bridge with extremely high accuracy but a very limited frequency range. Best accuracy is achieved at 1 kHz.

I won't argue that a wider frequency range is more versatile, but for ultimate accuracy a 1 kHz-only bridge might be better.

Offline Kosmic

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2023, 07:25:31 pm »
Yes, there are limits to specified accuracy, just like any other measurement device.

Right. That was my point; better accuracy and general usefulness requires a broader frequency range, and costs more. The DE-5000 is very limited, but also very good for its price.

Is there really a link between frequency range and accuracy ?

This is the accuracy of the R&S LCX pdenisowski linked just above:



at 10KHz you are already at 0.1% and 10MHz you are at 1%.

I think they are just better instruments thus more expensive. And more expensive instrument have more features like extended frequency range.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2023, 07:29:09 pm by Kosmic »
 

Online KungFuJosh

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Re: Why some brands don't do LCR meters?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2023, 07:58:22 pm »
better accuracy and general usefulness requires a broader frequency range, and costs more
Why do you think accuracy and frequency range are linked? Counter point: the GR 1620 bridge with extremely high accuracy but a very limited frequency range. Best accuracy is achieved at 1 kHz.
Your counterpoint isn't a counterpoint, it is my point. I'm talking about accuracy across a broader range of component values, not specifically high accuracy within a limited range of values. All meters have a higher accuracy in a specific frequency range.


Yes, there are limits to specified accuracy, just like any other measurement device.

Right. That was my point; better accuracy and general usefulness requires a broader frequency range, and costs more. The DE-5000 is very limited, but also very good for its price.

Is there really a link between frequency range and accuracy ?

This is the accuracy of the R&S LCX pdenisowski linked just above:



at 10KHz you are already at 0.1% and 10MHz you are at 1%.

I think they are just better instruments thus more expensive. And more expensive instrument have more features like extended frequency range.

You're ignoring component value, and focusing only on the frequency. Any component value that falls outside of those ideal boxed ranges is questionable at best. By that chart, even the 10MHz upgrade ($20k), is mediocre accuracy to measure 100pH. I'm not aware of there being a 20MHz upgrade for that range, but that would be required to measure that.

Compare it with Instek's 8200 series accuracy chart:


Accuracy still drops off, but the ability to test AT ALL is better than nothing.
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