Author Topic: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?  (Read 17334 times)

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Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2018, 08:25:14 am »
When studnets measure the votage at the "mains" at a power supply of say a router to see if the fuse is good.

If that's how you're teaching them to find out if a fuse is good then maybe a rethink is needed.
 

Offline imidis

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2018, 09:00:19 am »
 :palm:

Ok going to be really serious here. Seriously rethink what you are doing and the knowledge you may have or not have.
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Offline Kean

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2018, 10:05:56 am »
I've got to agree with the majority here.  The OPs assertion seems to be that the best way to teach is by letting people make mistakes.  While that may be a good way to *learn*, it is never a good way to teach.  Especially when someones heath or life is on the line.

In any business or education environment, intentionally exposing someone to risk - even if well intentioned - is going to be good grounds for dismissal, maybe even getting sued.  The limit for safe handling without special procedures is generally considered to be around 50V, and there are exceptions even to that.  I'm am personally especially careful with anything above 30V, or where high currents are possible.

If you want to measure mains voltage, use a multimeter & probes appropriate for the task (i.e. CAT II or better).
If you want to check mains waveform, you can use a isolation transformer - preferably one with a lower secondary voltage, like the doorbel transformer discussed above.  Or you could use an oscilloscope designed for power electronics use - typically battery powered for isolation, and with a high voltage probe.
If you want to check a fuse, remove it and use a mutlimeter in ohms mode - and never do it with power on.  In fact on some older equipment, it can be dangerous to remove a fuse while powered due to poor fuse holder design.  I still occasionally see low voltage fuse holders used on new mains equipment.

Yes, there are ways to do all of these in the non-ideal ways suggested above - and you may even do that in your home environment where you take that risk on yourself, but you don't go doing that in a workplace, or worse teaching others to do it.  By doing so, you are placing both your job and others at risk.  If you don't agree, please chat with your boss about risk management training.

And yes, I've had some minor 240V shocks in my life - but only as a teenager when I really should have known better.  And now I do!   :phew:
 

Offline Dubbie

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With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #128 on: February 06, 2018, 10:10:07 am »
This thread just seems absolutely ludicrously insane to me. I hope you think it’s worth it to face a lawsuit you will surely lose in order to teach students how to be reckless. (Your posts make it sound like you have no clue what you are doing)

Real professional electricians don’t get shocks. Only lazy and hubristic ones do.  The last time I got a shock was as a young teen poking around in a plugged in amplifier. I was completely unqualified, uneducated and unequipped to be doing something like that. Since then I made an effort to educate myself and cultivate a attitude of safety. I now regularly work with mains and have never had a shock or near miss since then.

I know two people who were electrocuted (that means game over) both were uninterested in following safety rules. It’s not an abstract thing. It happens to real people.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:13:56 am by Dubbie »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #129 on: February 06, 2018, 10:29:43 am »
To use some analogies:

Would you teach firearms use by letting them make mistakes?

Would you teach somebody to drive by trial and error (a few near misses at intersections would teach them what those pesky red lights mean, right?  :-+ )

No, you wouldn't. You'd start by teaching them the correct way to do it (ie. gloves, safety goggles) then if anybody messes up or doesn't follow the rules you'd shout at them. If they want to ignore procedure and make mistakes in their own spare time then that's their problem but there's no place for it in a classroom.

Were you going to mention gloves and safety goggles at all? And ... if you're going to mention it then what will you say when somebody asks why they're not following the safety rules?

"I secretly want a few of you to get zapped as a learning experience. You'll thank me for it later."

Or ... maybe you weren't planning on mentioning any safety procedures at all. I'm sure that'll come across well in a job interview.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2018, 10:44:01 am by Fungus »
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #130 on: February 06, 2018, 05:00:13 pm »
Take it from a fellow educator: if you tell your students to plug their oscilloscope probes into the wall, they are going to think that kind of behavior is ok, and let me be clear: it is not ok.  Sure, maybe they will get shocked and learn not to do it, if they survive.  However, they might also not get shocked, and those that don't will wind up thinking they know what they are doing, and will end up dying somewhere else doing something incredibly stupid that you have just taught them how to do.

It is your duty as an educator to teach children how to be safe with electronics.  Plugging your oscilloscope probes into a wall socket (or any source of high voltage, AC or DC) is not safe.  It is completely idiotic, and it makes you a bad teacher.

The most dangerous person in the work place is the one who thinks they know what they are doing.  Don't let your students be that person.
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #131 on: February 07, 2018, 05:38:18 am »
Just about all of you have told me you've been zapped, and then you tell me I must be a horrible teacher if any of my students accidently get zapped.  After getting zapped how many of you were immediately rushed to the hospital?  Received a permanent injury?  Required medial attention? Or did you just get zapped and think boy did I just do something stupid, and get on with your life? 

So after you get zapped you tell me this is something that should NEVER happen to any student.  Keep them safe, do allow them to go anywhere near voltages for 30 to 50 volts or more.  Students are a lot smarter than you think.  They have figured out how to get zapped from a 9 volt battery.  (No coil is involved).  No this is not something I taught them.....  Maybe one of you did.  So maybe 9 volts is to much?  Now are you going to tell me nothing over 1.5v? 

Why is it okay for you to get accidentlay zapped and not students?
 

Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #132 on: February 07, 2018, 05:52:34 am »
Why is it okay for you to get accidentlay zapped and not students?

Because we got zapped alone at home out of stupidity+ignorance, not in a classroom with somebody there to guide us and tell us not to do whatever stupid thing we were doing.

 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #133 on: February 07, 2018, 06:08:37 am »
Why is it okay for you to get accidentlay zapped and not students?

Because we got zapped alone at home out of stupidity+ignorance, not in a classroom with somebody there to guide us and tell us not to do whatever stupid thing we were doing.

Ahhhh and you think just because students are at school under the supervision of an teacher they are smarter than you at home.  See that's the problem we are teaching these kids to be smart, but that doesn't mean they still don't do dumb thinks.  (Notice I did not use the word stupid.)  They would remain stupid if they did not go to school.
 

Offline jacklee

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #134 on: February 07, 2018, 09:23:57 am »
Another good option for a classroom scope is the Micsig TO1104.  The fully loaded model (4 channels, 100MHz, battery, HDMI, WiFi, serial protocol decode, 500uV, 28Mpts) is around $475 on amazon.  You can use the HDMI port to show the scope display on a large LCD TV, monitor or projector.

This looks intereting but there are no knobs.  It's a touch screen.  Horrible for teaching.  Studnets and I will point to the screen to discuss something only to find we changed settings.  I really like my Windows 10 touch screen comptuer.  But using it as a teaching tool is horrible.  Drives me and students crazy.

In my personal opinion, students should have interests in touch screen scope, it is definitely creative! I think learning the oscilloscope theory with simple operations like Micsig TO1104 will make them more interested in oscilloscopes. I think people who have this scope will also agree with me.

Here's their operation video you may give it a look:
https://youtu.be/TsqLbc1Almo

I think for the reason you are a teacher, Micsig should also give you a good discounts, I think they should have discounts plan for students. Anyway, give it a try.  :box:
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #135 on: February 07, 2018, 01:51:58 pm »
Another good option for a classroom scope is the Micsig TO1104.  The fully loaded model (4 channels, 100MHz, battery, HDMI, WiFi, serial protocol decode, 500uV, 28Mpts) is around $475 on amazon.  You can use the HDMI port to show the scope display on a large LCD TV, monitor or projector.

This looks intereting but there are no knobs.  It's a touch screen.  Horrible for teaching.  Studnets and I will point to the screen to discuss something only to find we changed settings.  I really like my Windows 10 touch screen comptuer.  But using it as a teaching tool is horrible.  Drives me and students crazy.

In my personal opinion, students should have interests in touch screen scope, it is definitely creative! I think learning the oscilloscope theory with simple operations like Micsig TO1104 will make them more interested in oscilloscopes. I think people who have this scope will also agree with me.

Here's their operation video you may give it a look:
https://youtu.be/TsqLbc1Almo

I think for the reason you are a teacher, Micsig should also give you a good discounts, I think they should have discounts plan for students. Anyway, give it a try.  :box:
I think you raise a good point there; newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment -
even if they dislike it, there's always a seed for an idea on how to make the interface better. Think about it: the mooshimeter is already attractive due to this very same interface.

In my own experience, I am amazed at the dexterity that some of the younger engineers show in using the laptop's touchpad.
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2018, 02:49:43 pm »
newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment

They're not common in the real world though, and not exactly within the $400 budget.

« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 02:52:26 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #137 on: February 07, 2018, 02:51:03 pm »
Another good option for a classroom scope is the Micsig TO1104.  The fully loaded model (4 channels, 100MHz, battery, HDMI, WiFi, serial protocol decode, 500uV, 28Mpts) is around $475 on amazon.  You can use the HDMI port to show the scope display on a large LCD TV, monitor or projector.

This looks intereting but there are no knobs.  It's a touch screen.  Horrible for teaching.  Studnets and I will point to the screen to discuss something only to find we changed settings.  I really like my Windows 10 touch screen comptuer.  But using it as a teaching tool is horrible.  Drives me and students crazy.

In my personal opinion, students should have interests in touch screen scope, it is definitely creative! I think learning the oscilloscope theory with simple operations like Micsig TO1104 will make them more interested in oscilloscopes. I think people who have this scope will also agree with me.

Here's their operation video you may give it a look:
https://youtu.be/TsqLbc1Almo

I think for the reason you are a teacher, Micsig should also give you a good discounts, I think they should have discounts plan for students. Anyway, give it a try.  :box:
I think you raise a good point there; newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment -
even if they dislike it, there's always a seed for an idea on how to make the interface better. Think about it: the mooshimeter is already attractive due to this very same interface.

In my own experience, I am amazed at the dexterity that some of the younger engineers show in using the laptop's touchpad.

And my five year old granddaughter can run circles around me on my iPad/phone.
 

Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #138 on: February 07, 2018, 03:04:02 pm »
And my five year old granddaughter can run circles around me on my iPad/phone.

I bet she knows some pop songs you don't, too.

Neither is a sign that she's a genius.  :popcorn:
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #139 on: February 07, 2018, 03:04:16 pm »
newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment

They're not common in the real world though, and not exactly within the $400 budget.
I wasn't sure about the budget, but you raise a good point as well. "Real" labs don't use them very often, but I can see it happening in a way, shape or form in the future.

I always wonder about the day when oscilloscopes will have a detachable touchscreen that can be used remotely à la Fluke 233 series (but with a full interface).

(snip)
In my own experience, I am amazed at the dexterity that some of the younger engineers show in using the laptop's touchpad.
And my five year old granddaughter can run circles around me on my iPad/phone.
:-DD My daughters are starting to get smarter with gizmos like that as well... It won't be long before I start asking for their help.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #140 on: February 07, 2018, 03:50:57 pm »
Ha! younger -electrical oopsie-  funeral fodder youngsters swiping and pinching on toy touchscreens isn't real education, experience, intelligence nor diligence   :palm:

They'll end up in the ground, blinded and trash gear just as fast or faster as the non-internet web destitute previous generation of button pushing dial turning prod blunderers they think are 'left behind or tech starved'


Tip for old players: lift your game and catch up, or don't stress over it,
either way don't let the current screen based toys and jargon BS hipstertards intimidate you

Think about it: What could be more dumbass and mind slave compliant than having to gooogle, wiki, youtube and online purchase everything ?

Who will really be on top in a SHTF scenario?
"Uh oh! no phone reception, no GPS, where are we, what's going on, -Web Server down please try again later-, 16% Battery Power left..."    :-// :scared: :-[


Welcome to old school SOL...    >:D

 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #141 on: February 07, 2018, 04:44:56 pm »

Our grandfathers to us:
Ha! younger -electrical oopsie- funeral fodder youngsters rotating and pushing buttons on toy "multimeters" isn't real education, experience, intelligence nor diligence :palm:

They'll end up in the ground, blinded and trash gear just as fast or faster as the non-VOM digital destitute previous generation of rotating switches needle reading lever pushing prod blunderers they think are 'left behind or tech starved'

Tip for old players: lift your game and catch up, or don't stress over it,
either way don't let the current digital based toys and jargon BS hippietards intimidate you

Think about it: What could be more dumbass and mind slave compliant than watching TV, have a phone on the pocket and order by mail everything ?

Who will really be on top in a SHTF scenario?
"Uh oh! no TV signal, no dial tone, where are we, what's going on, -Off air please try again later-, No Electricity or hot water or ar conditioning..."    :-// :scared: :-[


Welcome to old school SOL...    >:D
[/quote]
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #142 on: February 07, 2018, 05:04:12 pm »
Another good option for a classroom scope is the Micsig TO1104.  The fully loaded model (4 channels, 100MHz, battery, HDMI, WiFi, serial protocol decode, 500uV, 28Mpts) is around $475 on amazon.  You can use the HDMI port to show the scope display on a large LCD TV, monitor or projector.

This looks intereting but there are no knobs.  It's a touch screen.  Horrible for teaching.  Studnets and I will point to the screen to discuss something only to find we changed settings.  I really like my Windows 10 touch screen comptuer.  But using it as a teaching tool is horrible.  Drives me and students crazy.


In my personal opinion, students should have interests in touch screen scope, it is definitely creative! I think learning the oscilloscope theory with simple operations like Micsig TO1104 will make them more interested in oscilloscopes. I think people who have this scope will also agree with me.

Here's their operation video you may give it a look:
https://youtu.be/TsqLbc1Almo

I think for the reason you are a teacher, Micsig should also give you a good discounts, I think they should have discounts plan for students. Anyway, give it a try.  :box:



I personally like touch screens, but they are horrible for teaching.  When I or a student points to something on the screen settings change.  I have to use a plastic a straw or something similar to use as a pointer for4 something on the screen. 

Just looked at the price.....  About twice that of the Rigol.  I would gladly purchse one but they would have a offfer a substatianl instructors discount.

 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #143 on: February 07, 2018, 05:11:47 pm »
newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment

They're not common in the real world though, and not exactly within the $400 budget.

Touch screens are very common in the real word.  I prefer them over non-touch screens.  Most of the computers own all have touch screens as does my my phone and the screen in my car  But for test equipment I don't think they work so well.  Just about all of you are telling me my students should be wearing gloves.  Gloves and touch screens don't work well together.  I don't think touch screens would ever work well on in the work place.  (I'm sure there are a few exceptions.)
 

Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #144 on: February 07, 2018, 05:20:58 pm »

Our grandfathers to us:
Ha! younger -electrical oopsie- funeral fodder youngsters rotating and pushing buttons on toy "multimeters" isn't real education, experience, intelligence nor diligence :palm:

They'll end up in the ground, blinded and trash gear just as fast or faster as the non-VOM digital destitute previous generation of rotating switches needle reading lever pushing prod blunderers they think are 'left behind or tech starved'

Tip for old players: lift your game and catch up, or don't stress over it,
either way don't let the current digital based toys and jargon BS hippietards intimidate you

Think about it: What could be more dumbass and mind slave compliant than watching TV, have a phone on the pocket and order by mail everything ?

Who will really be on top in a SHTF scenario?
"Uh oh! no TV signal, no dial tone, where are we, what's going on, -Off air please try again later-, No Electricity or hot water or ar conditioning..."    :-// :scared: :-[


Welcome to old school SOL...    >:D
[/quote]


Pilots and airplane industry are having a similar issue.  Old pilots learned how to fly reading analog clock type instruments.  Most new planes are using "glass" or LCD screens.  Same info, just presented in a different format.  A number of fatal airplane crashes have been attributed to pilots who trained on one, being confused by the other.

Wonder how many of our younger folks can read an analog meter?  Or for that matter an analog clock?
 
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Online rsjsouza

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #145 on: February 07, 2018, 05:42:51 pm »
newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment

They're not common in the real world though, and not exactly within the $400 budget.

Touch screens are very common in the real word.  I prefer them over non-touch screens.  Most of the computers own all have touch screens as does my my phone and the screen in my car  But for test equipment I don't think they work so well.  Just about all of you are telling me my students should be wearing gloves.  Gloves and touch screens don't work well together.  I don't think touch screens would ever work well on in the work place.  (I'm sure there are a few exceptions.)
Doug, the types of gloves for electrical safety do not work on a great number of rotary dials either - that is why there are DMMs where the rotary is located on the side of its body, so they can be rotated with the thumb (Fluke 11x, Keysight U123x are examples).

Gloves or not, however, can benefit from a capacitive stylus. I would even recommend for rotating virtual knobs and pushing buttons on an oscilloscope, given the precision is greatly increased.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 05:48:28 pm by rsjsouza »
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Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #146 on: February 07, 2018, 06:05:11 pm »
Just about all of you are telling me my students should be wearing gloves.  Gloves and touch screens don't work well together.

They're allowed to take them off when they're not poking at AC mains.

But maybe you're still planning on connecting your 'scope to mains once per day just to see if the electricity company is trying to sneak a triangle wave into your building.


 
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Offline DougSpindler

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #147 on: February 07, 2018, 06:36:58 pm »
newer generations are quite familiar with touchscreen interfaces, thus making micsig quite an attractive equipment

They're not common in the real world though, and not exactly within the $400 budget.

Touch screens are very common in the real word.  I prefer them over non-touch screens.  Most of the computers own all have touch screens as does my my phone and the screen in my car  But for test equipment I don't think they work so well.  Just about all of you are telling me my students should be wearing gloves.  Gloves and touch screens don't work well together.  I don't think touch screens would ever work well on in the work place.  (I'm sure there are a few exceptions.)
Doug, the types of gloves for electrical safety do not work on a great number of rotary dials either - that is why there are DMMs where the rotary is located on the side of its body, so they can be rotated with the thumb (Fluke 11x, Keysight U123x are examples).

Gloves or not, however, can benefit from a capacitive stylus. I would even recommend for rotating virtual knobs and pushing buttons on an oscilloscope, given the precision is greatly increased.

Thanks I learned something.  Now I know why the dials are offset and have ridges.  Makes perfect sense. 
Just looked at the Fluke 11x - It's been recalled. 


Gloves are no substitue for knowing exactly what you are doing.  I remember the story of an electrician who had been marred for less than a year.  His "new" wife felt strongly about the vows of marrage and made here new husband, (an electician) promise to never take his wedding ring off.  (Hope you know were this is going.)  The ring being larger than his fingers thinned the insuation in the glove.  One day he was working on mains a was electrocuted to death.

I would think the husband must have had a life insurance policy.  So was the wife ingnorat or very clever? 


I never wear my wedding ring either.  Inpart becuase of theis story, but more becasue of my own experiances.  Years ago working with computers whihc had daugher boards in slots in intentiolay but stupiildy put my finger between to peripherial cards.  When my gold ring hit the tracings on one card adn the chips on the other there was a litte bzzzt and some fireworks.  Normal reaction is to pull one's had from a spark and I probably cut my finger on the traces. (Didn't get zapped that time.)  But ever since that day I have never worn my wedding ring.  I might be smart, but I realized wearing a wedding ring one beomces just too confortable and I will never rememeber to remove it when working with any electricity  (Plus I would probably loose it too.)  The other reason is my wife doesn't have a large life insurance policy on me so I'm worth more to her alive than dead.


Guess what I'm saying no amount of protective gear is a substitute for propler education in safety when it comes to electrity.  And even then safety equipment doen't always keep you safe.

One more story.  Had a boss who was wearing safety glasses.  Somethign arced sending motlen metal in the air.  One small spec of molten metal hit him in the face buring him.  The trajectory of the meal was such that the path was beween the top of safety glasses and the skin of his forehead.  As I reacl it hit hin in the eye causign a minor burn.

Moral of the story - Never rely on safey equipment to protect you.





   

 

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Online Fungus

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #148 on: February 07, 2018, 08:11:45 pm »
One more story.  Had a boss who was wearing safety glasses.  Somethign arced sending motlen metal in the air.  One small spec of molten metal hit him in the face buring him.  The trajectory of the meal was such that the path was beween the top of safety glasses and the skin of his forehead.  As I reacl it hit hin in the eye causign a minor burn.

Moral of the story - Never rely on safey equipment to protect you.

In other news: Smoking doesn't cause cancer. I know this because I had an uncle who smoked until he was 90.

 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: With a budget of $400 - Rigol or Siglent scope?
« Reply #149 on: February 08, 2018, 07:32:01 am »
LOL, if safety glasses, gloves, and ear plugs may not quite cut it, what's left to protect the over confident 'empowered' stupdents?    :-//

Ah yes I forgot..  |O

The Force  8)
 
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