EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: KungFuJosh on May 08, 2023, 11:58:51 pm
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I'm considering getting yet another meter. I was hoping to get something higher-end, but not sure what the best option is, especially in the lower price ranges.
My primary DMM for the past 12 years has been an Amprobe 37XR-A. It's been great for the most part, and I love that it has inductance in addition to the standards. I also have a dozen other meters including the DE-5000 and the new Shannon tweezers.
My primary uses are for electronics work on guitars, amplifiers, pro audio, and some more precise stuff like my FUtracer tube tracer. Generally speaking, I don't need 30 digits, but I do want solid performance.
If something is available with common TRMS DMM specs plus inductance, that would be awesome. I guess I want a higher accuracy / broader spec version of the 37XR-A. I always use voltage, diode, impedance & continuity, sometimes current, and capacitance, and sometimes inductance. If trying to get inductance included is unrealistic, that's fine. I'm not trying to spend thousands of dollars on a DMM. I'm not interested in paying for the Fluke name either.
These seem to be nice options from the Multimeter chart thread (and the 1000 other threads like this one), but I don't think any do inductance:
Brymen BM869
Hioki DT4282
Uni-T UT181A
CEM DT-9987
EEVblog / Brymen BM786
Does anybody have a reason why a bench model might be preferred? From my understanding, they typically cost more, take up more space, and aren't isolated because they usually use wall power.
I don't really want to spend a lot on this, so I might trade (or sell) my SDG2042X towards a nice meter. It's barely used at all (probably less than an hour total) since I got it shortly before my SDS2104XP, and then only used the built-in AWG. If I get something cheaper like the BM786 I'll just keep it.
Thanks,
Josh
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Does anybody have a reason why a bench model might be preferred? From my understanding, they typically cost more, take up more space, and aren't isolated because they usually use wall power.
Of course a bench DMM has isolated terminals, what DMM doesn't !
Isolation from mains is provided within the meter and they typically offer a rating into the reference terminal of 500V max above mains ground.
See image:
(https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/SDM3055-gallery3_JC.png)
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Does anybody have a reason why a bench model might be preferred? From my understanding, they typically cost more, take up more space, and aren't isolated because they usually use wall power.
Of course a bench DMM has isolated terminals, what DMM doesn't !
Isolation from mains is provided within the meter and they typically offer a rating into the reference terminal of 500V max above mains ground.
Oh, that's cool. I read somebody claiming otherwise on this site (I never bothered to research further, Oops). Ok, so the Siglent DMMs can be on the list too. 😉
I didn't see anything for inductance on those either tho.
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I didn't see anything for inductance on those either tho.
Correct.
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and of course, touchscreen
(https://www.trinergy.co.th/images/6500_1.jpg)
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I also have a dozen other meters including the DE-5000 and the new Shannon tweezers.
Inductance is a pretty rare feature to have in a general-purpose DMM of any type. If you already have LCR meters, there's not much point in trying to replicate that function. The only feature that I think would be a worthwhile improvement for your usage would be a meter with a high-impedance input function and on your budget, that is most likely going to be a used unit since the lowest price new versions are $700+. I'm thinking of something like a HP34401A or Fluke 8842A.
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I also have a dozen other meters including the DE-5000 and the new Shannon tweezers.
Inductance is a pretty rare feature to have in a general-purpose DMM of any type. If you already have LCR meters, there's not much point in trying to replicate that function. The only feature that I think would be a worthwhile improvement for your usage would be a meter with a high-impedance input function and on your budget, that is most likely going to be a used unit since the lowest price new versions are $700+. I'm thinking of something like a HP34401A or Fluke 8842A.
All the Siglent bench DMM's offer such.
And 100% on inductance as any good set of tweezers can provide useful inductance measurements.
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Of course a bench DMM has isolated terminals, what DMM doesn't !
Isolation from mains is provided within the meter and they typically offer a rating into the reference terminal of 500V max above mains ground.
Oh, that's cool. I read somebody claiming otherwise on this site
A non-isolated DMM would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.
I didn't see anything for inductance on those either tho.
DMMs don't have inductance as a rule.
Maybe you should look into LCR meters first. That would free your mind when you go looking for a DMM.
The DE-5000 is popular around here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendation-on-a-decent-lcr-meter/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendation-on-a-decent-lcr-meter/)
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All the Siglent bench DMM's offer such.
Really? I thought it was just the 6.5-digit model? Or do the lesser ones have Hi-Z on the millivolt ranges only? That's not quite as useful.
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All the Siglent bench DMM's offer such.
Really? I thought it was just the 6.5-digit model? Or do the lesser ones have Hi-Z on the millivolt ranges only? That's not quite as useful.
From datasheet:
200 mV and 2 V Range 10 MΩ or >10 GΩ selectable
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Maybe you should look into LCR meters first. That would free your mind when you go looking for a DMM.
The DE-5000 is popular around here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendation-on-a-decent-lcr-meter/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recommendation-on-a-decent-lcr-meter/)
I mentioned in the OP that I already have the DE-5000, the Shannon tweezers, and my Amprobe 37XR-A all can do inductance. Since my Amprobe has it, I was hoping another nice DMM does too. Not a deal breaker either way. I like to be lazy and not have to reach into my meter drawer and pull out another device if I don't have to. 😉
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i would suggest a dual display bench dmm , that can measure 2 functions in the same time, playing with sound amplifiers very much to measure AC and DC in the same time, or AC current and voltage , it kind useful. Sometimes i need precision to match resistors for filters. or so ...
200000 count or 5.5 digit qute useful as you can do choose between precision, wide range ( set to 200.00 V - cover all your basic measures no worries ) or speed ( like set 3.5 digit with a few hundreds updates per sec - very useful for spikes )
and it should not be a new device ...
check this one https://www.ebay.com/itm/394614612431 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/394614612431) , dual display
disassemble, replace caps, clean the case \ cover ; maybe buttons , display perfect, dont like it will sell in a moment for the same price ...
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I like to be lazy and not have to reach into my meter drawer and pull out another device if I don't have to. 😉
You could tape the DE-5000 to the top of the bench DMM instead of keeping it in a drawer.
Bench DMM with built-in LCR meter! :)
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My 2 cents:
The Amprobe 37XR-A is decent. 10,000 count plus some bonus functions. But the 50k/60k count Brymens would be a step up in resolution and accuracy and are pretty popular. US warranty support might be a minor negative.
A modern bench DMM could offer you a large, color screen with trend information and lots of statistics all at once. Then there is the 4-wire Ohms mode which may or may not be interesting depending on use case and the fact you already have the DE-5000.
A calibrated, vintage bench DMM could offer lots of spot-on digits. Everything else is somewhat lacking.
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A non-isolated DMM would be as much use as a chocolate teapot.
Such a thing exists. This last Easter we found a chocolate teapot with a little chick in it. Like a hollow chocolate Easter egg, except in the shape of a chick filled teapot. I could not help wondering how much work it was getting the printed foil lined up right on those. :-//
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I'm leaning towards one of these 3:
Hioki DT4282 $431 on Amazon
Uni-T UT181A $360 on Amazon
EEVblog / Brymen BM786 $165 $173 shipped from Aus, or $199 from Amazon
Diode testing is important to me, and it appears that the Hioki is the best of these. But is it worth the cost difference? The Uni-T looks to be a really good set of specs for the price, but it has the same diode rating as my amprobe, and the BM786 is only slightly better. Would any one of them really be better at testing for leaky diodes?
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I don't see anything the OP has written which justifies needing more than 3 plus some fraction digits.
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Diode testing is important to me, and it appears that the Hioki is the best of these. But is it worth the cost difference? The Uni-T looks to be a really good set of specs for the price, but it has the same diode rating as my amprobe, and the BM786 is only slightly better. Would any one of them really be better at testing for leaky diodes?
What diode testing specs are you looking at and do you really mean "leaky diodes"? Leaky would seem to imply you'd want to use the conductance feature, which they all have. I don't see any obvious difference in normal forward voltage testing as they all seem to specify a 3.0V range.
The BM786 is bandwidth limited to 7kHz and not all that accurate above 1kHz, so if you are working on audio stuff perhaps that matters?
If it was me I would avoid the big-bang-for-buck UNI-T and take the Hioki. However, I'd check and see exactly what warranty and support you are entitled to if you buy it at a discount from seller 'BUGS BUNNY'.
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Among the choices I would pick the Hioki.
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Among the choices I would pick the Hioki.
Either that or the $4 Big Clive DMM: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/trashy-meters-redux/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/trashy-meters-redux/)
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Among the choices I would pick the Hioki.
Either that or the $4 Big Clive DMM: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/trashy-meters-redux/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/trashy-meters-redux/)
lol, I have plenty of trashy meters stashed in drawers, I'll pass on that one.
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Does anybody have a reason why a bench model might be preferred?
Bench models usually have a way to control it remotely, via GPIB or Ethernet or USB or RS-232 (and often some combinations of those).
That's really useful when you need to collect data in an automated fashion.
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lol, I have plenty of trashy meters stashed in drawers, I'll pass on that one.
On the bench? Both show identical numbers... :-//
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I think I'm just going to sell or trade my SDG2042X towards the SDM3055. I think my Amprobe covers my needs well enough compared to the other handhelds. With the minimal price difference between the nicer handhelds and the SDM3055, I don't see a reason not to get it. (besides it being overkill, not really needing it, etc.) Or maybe I'll be dumb and make room for both on my bench. 🤣
Also, just to throw this out there... Is there a $500 competitor to the SDM3055 that anybody thinks is as good or superior? I'm really not interested in a used meter, so let's not go there. Used meters are projects, I have plenty of projects.
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..... Or maybe I'll be dumb and make room for both on my bench. 🤣
That would be Smart, as you'll need all the digits & signals you can get in those Radiation Hardened Thermionic Emission Field Effect Encapsulated Devices to find those Leaking Electrons that were Thermionic Emitted from the Bright source and got lost on their way to be Collected at the Dark side :)
Best,
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That would be Smart, as you'll need all the digits & signals you can get in those Radiation Hardened Thermionic Emission Field Effect Encapsulated Devices to find those Leaking Electrons that were Thermionic Emitted from the Bright source and got lost on their way to be Collected at the Dark side :)
You're right, they are all overkill. But that never stopped TEAS before. :-DD
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I think I'm just going to sell or trade my SDG2042X towards the SDM3055. I think my Amprobe covers my needs well enough compared to the other handhelds. With the minimal price difference between the nicer handhelds and the SDM3055, I don't see a reason not to get it. (besides it being overkill, not really needing it, etc.) Or maybe I'll be dumb and make room for both on my bench. 🤣
Also, just to throw this out there... Is there a $500 competitor to the SDM3055 that anybody thinks is as good or superior? I'm really not interested in a used meter, so let's not go there. Used meters are projects, I have plenty of projects.
Maybe knowing these products a little better than you....here's what I would do:
Keep SDG2042X for 2 reasons, one day you will need both the output drive capability and the 2nd channel.
Your scope FG output cannot compare with a standalone AWG.
Consider SDM3045X as it's fanless.
Also highly recommend you have a study here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/)
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Consider SDM3045X as it's fanless.
Also highly recommend you have a study here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/)
Is the fan noise that bad on the 3055 that it's a benefit to the 3045?
That thread is interesting, and hacking is fun, but is there a reason besides price and fan noise why you would opt for the 3045X instead?
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Is the fan noise that bad on the 3055 that it's a benefit to the 3045?
Of the 6 Siglent machines I have the SDM3055 is the quietest save for the SPD3033X and SDL1030X before their fans come on. After they do come on, it's the quietest.
I'm not sure why folks are so concerned about noise. When I'm in my "lab" I usually 4 computers and at least 5 instruments turned on. The addition of one more does not seem to make any difference. And even with all those things going it's not what I'd call noisy and normal conversations are not in jeopardy. :-//
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Consider SDM3045X as it's fanless.
Also highly recommend you have a study here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdm3045x-enough-is-enough/)
Is the fan noise that bad on the 3055 that it's a benefit to the 3045?
That thread is interesting, and hacking is fun, but is there a reason besides price and fan noise why you would opt for the 3045X instead?
SDM3055 = SDG2042X fan noise, not bad but you know, the less the better.
Read that thread again, SDM3045X = China version SDM3055X-E = 5.5 digits for the 4.5 digit cost....and no fan !
The only difference is product type, set by code and firmware.
Here we sell 3045X to repair shops where instead of HH DMM's each repair bench sports a bench meter too.
Either model has been very reliable and when you get the customer come back for further units it says something about their satisfaction with them.
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SDM3055 = SDG2042X fan noise, not bad but you know, the less the better.
Read that thread again, SDM3045X = China version SDM3055X-E = 5.5 digits for the 4.5 digit cost....and no fan !
The only difference is product type, set by code and firmware.
Here we sell 3045X to repair shops where instead of HH DMM's each repair bench sports a bench meter too.
Either model has been very reliable and when you get the customer come back for further units it says something about their satisfaction with them.
I suppose I could put that extra $100 towards another HH DMM if I get bored. 🤣
What program am I supposed to use to edit the ADS file? Does every new firmware version need the ADS file edited, or does that only need to be done if switching between versions?
Thanks
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What program am I supposed to use to edit the ADS file?
Not sure but I guess any decent file editor can do it. The OS is Linux so the ADS file format is one of theirs.
Ask Mr Google.
Does every new firmware version need the ADS file edited, or does that only need to be done if switching between versions?
No just once to change the SDM3055X-E firmware product type for SDM3045X to accept it and thereafter use only SDM3055X-E firmware.
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What program am I supposed to use to edit the ADS file?
Not sure but I guess any decent file editor can do it. The OS is Linux so the ADS file format is one of theirs.
Ask Mr Google.
Mr Google said any text editor, but it failed to mention you need to use a binary file or hex plugin. I can open it now, but the line starting with "b8 8e b4 c9 9f..." is only in the original version tv84 helped with. Seems like I have to start with that same version and then flash the newest one?
Does every new firmware version need the ADS file edited, or does that only need to be done if switching between versions?
No just once to change the SDM3055X-E firmware product type for SDM3045X to accept it and thereafter use only SDM3055X-E firmware.
That's pretty cool.
Thanks,
Josh
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No I believe the great tv84's product type code can be inserted into any SDM3055X-E firmware for SDM3045X to see it as the correct product type firmware and install it.
We have tools to fix stuff should be required. ;)
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No I believe the great tv84's product type code can be inserted into any SDM3055X-E firmware for SDM3045X to see it as the correct product type firmware and install it.
We have tools to fix stuff should be required. ;)
Well, I ask because that first line of code from the original is different in the newest version. It was the 1st line in the old version, should I assume the 1st line would need to be edited again?
It's possible I already ordered it...now I need to clean my workbench and make some room. 😬
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You might be perfectly content with an unaltered 3045X and if you later decide to improve it and have issues take it to that thread and seek any required guidance from the great tv84 himself. ;)
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You might be perfectly content with an unaltered 3045X and if you later decide to improve it and have issues take it to that thread and seek any required guidance from the great tv84 himself. ;)
I would hypothetically want to do such experiments during any hypothetical return period...and knowing that I get to mess with it without ruining the cal is what sold me on it. 😉
Also, I'm well aware of how awesome the great tv84 is. 😎
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I got the DMM in. It's pretty great so far. It was really fast to backup the calibration and then "improve" the DMM. The measurements certainly appear stable with 5.5 digits.
I was also curious about continuity test speed since I've seen lots of people complain about that on different high-end DMMs, so I tested it out and made a quick video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJjo1DVBAc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVJjo1DVBAc)
Definitely not slow.