EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: Logan on November 29, 2020, 11:57:56 am
-
Hello everyone.
I recently got a Seek Shot Pro and I found 2 bugs in the first 10 minutes of use. Days later I emailed Seek a bug report including bunch of bugs and suggestions. Before getting their official fix update, I want to ask you guys if anyone can get into the software and modify something?
Basically I’m satisfied with it, but the firmware really need some improvements. If you guys want me to post the bug list I found, please tell me.
Thank you for reading.
-
The bug list would be interesting to see.
Sadly you may have quite a wait for an official fix as Seek Thermal are focussed on Fever Detection at the moment.
Fraser
-
I don’t think I can refuse a request from Fraser (I know you man).
The list is mostly copied from my email initially, with a little modifying. However it’s keeping updating.
Major bug: Measuring tools disappear/adding more on itself.
Don’t know the exact way to trigger it, but just enter and exit setting/gallery several times, pretty easy to get the bug to show up.
Major bug: In Region measuring mode, if a box is bigger than a certain size, the whole image will glitch out(zoom in and out rapidly, seems the lens geometry correction is toggling). See Attached Video. (This bug doesn’t appear in non-Pro model)
Major bug: Device sometimes crash and freeze on boot. See Picture A.
Happens 1-2 times a day on my frequency of use. Only way to get out is a force shutdown by holding power button.
Major bug: If there is a video in the device, Seek View(IOS) will not able to export that video, and will stop accepting any new file from device on next run. The only way is to uninstall and reinstall the APP(to clear data&cache).
On non-pro model, connecting WiFi have a big chance to crash the device.
So currently the only way to get video from device is by recording the screen.(Like I did for the video attached).
Minor bug: In setting>Fusion Alignment, the modify will always be saved, even if you press the X button to exit.
Minor bug: WiFi SSID do not allow less than 5 characters(should be 0-32). And WiFi password do not allow more than 31 characters(should be 8-63).
Plus, the changes are shown immediately, but only apply after you turn off WiFi and on again, which is sometimes confusing.
Minor bug: Flashlight control are not synchronized between power button and touch screen menu.
The power button will always toggle the LED status, but system menu will not be acknowledged, and will have no effect if the target state matches the state it already in.
Minor bug: FFC/NUC do not work well in all situations. See Picture B.
Picture B is when the device itself is cold, with lens blocked. The fixed pattern noise stay the same even after shutter actions.
Minor bug: If charging with power off, and then turn screen off, sometimes the the progress charged will display incorrectly after turning the screen back on.
Once it display a charging empty battery animation even after a whole night charging, and it’s definitely full.
Minor bug: Even in the middle of recording a video, the device would still auto power off according to setting.
Minor bug: If you select “Save as copy” after modifying a photo on device, you cannot see both image until you exit and enter gallery again.
Minor bug: (only on non-Pro model) When powering off, the shutter will rapidly act 2-5 times.
Major suggestion: Do not calibrate that aggressively on boot.
The device will always force FFC/NUC event every 2 seconds for 10 times after boot, and then the interval changed to 3 and 7 seconds, each for several times, disregarding the fact that it doesn’t need that. It’s bad to make the shutter wear out quickly, and also annoying because of the frequent image freezing.
Major suggestion: Add an option to allow user disabling lens geometry correction. Also see Picture B.
This is not very severe on non-Pro model.
I understand such correction by software is supposed to make the image look better, but I prefer to have a little distortion over losing edge pixels, and a little FOV.(See picture B, the fixed row/column noise is not straight).
Major suggestion: Preserve Measuring tool mode and settings across reboot.
Major suggestion: Include Measuring tools overlay in recorded video, just like still pictures do.
Major suggestion: In video playback, at least show the total length and current time stamp, also allow pause in the middle.
Maybe better, add a progress bar and allow skipping to any point.
Minor suggestion: Add a function to format the device storage. And another option to wipe the user setting partition, leaving only the firmware part untouched.
This will be useful if something goes wrong and the user don’t have a computer aside. He can use this function to restore the device functionality.
There are numerous of other small bugs or suggestions, but I decided to ignore them this time to focus on the more important ones for now. Also there might be other major bugs that I haven’t found, I’ll report more when necessary.
My test condition: Seek Shot Series with latest firmware V2.09. All images are pure thermal(no fusion), white-hot, auto span. Seek View running on IOS 14.x.
The 2 pictures and 1 video mentioned above is here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZLh2gyd/A.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvwB1z6Z/B.jpg)
https://vimeo.com/485075426 (https://vimeo.com/485075426)
-
Actually there are a little more suggestions that I didn’t emailed them, but I’d like to express them here:
Since the output photo resolution is 640x480, much less than the visible camera’s 1600x1200, they can use pixel binning to increase visible camera’s picture quality.
A better screen like VA or IPS should be used, currently the screen is TN and the “vertical” direction(with more color/brightness distortion) is placed horizontally, it’s uncomfortable to view closely because of the difference between two eyes.
More bottom controls, or at least a resistive touch screen should be used. Currently it rely on a capacitive touch screen and is really inaccurate, kinda annoying.
They should use histogram instead of linear AGC.
They could apply a little sharpen effect to the image, and make it user controllable. I found the image a bit blurry for QVGA resolution, but I can make it much better just using IOS built-in image editing.
Pro version lags a lot.
Should be able to join a existing network, so the phone/tablet don’t need to disconnect internet while syncing.
Better to have zoom function.
Add a setting to switch to 24-hour format.
Include an AC adapter in box.
Release a wide FOV non-Pro version.
Release a fast frame version.
Maybe anyone have such device want more improvements? Welcome to add.
-
Hi Logan,
That is quite a list ! You have done well to identify these issues 👍
Sadly this is reminiscent of cameras from the Far East that had decent hardware but poorly written firmware with many issues and lacking functionality. The SEEK Reveal series appear to have reasonably written firmware but they also have features missing that would be considered ‘normal’ these days. The Reveal PRO addressed some of the issues but that also has weird issues such as the Radiometric mode that creates a strange colour palette when saved and the lack of any Radiometric image analysis software to post capture analyse the Radiometric images. The lack of a video recording mode can be forgiven as such is quite a high load on the processor.
I get the feeling that SEEK Thermal may be a little like Hantek who make PC controlled test equipment. The hardware is respectable but they have not adequately invested in the firmware/software used with the product and so hamstrung it. I have the full SDK for the SEEK Thermal QVGA J3 core and the documentation reveals a core firmware that is ‘unusual’ to put it politely. Whether this is because of the challenges of creating a stable 12um pixel core or just poor firmware authoring I cannot say. The API is very limited in what it offers the third party programmer and no detail is provided for the core to host data protocol across USB. As such the third party programmer is locked into the restrictions imposed by the Seek API :( Members of this forum have developed better software for Seek Dongles by reverse engineering the data passing over the USB link but, as far as I know, SEEK have not provided any assistance in this matter. It is fair to say that the SEEK Thermal cores have an unusual mode of operation. The regular FFC events being just one example of this. The many image correction frames being transmitted across the USB link being another. It works.... but strikes me as an unusual approach.
In the SEEK Dongles and OEM J3 cores, there is a processor between the microbolometer and the USB port that packages the image data for transport to the host using the SEEK proprietary protocol. The host computer must contain the means to unwrap the data coming to it from the camera and then applies processing to the data to create a decent image. In the SEEK Reveal and Shot cameras, the microbolometer is connected directly to a host image processing engine with no intermediate data packaging processor or USB link. This is a sensible approach to an ‘all in one’ solution but you are then dealing with bespoke firmware running on a sophisticated embedded computer that uses an image processing engine. Not a simple task to reverse engineer.
Back to your camera....... I will be honest and say that the nature of the bugs you have found in the cameras firmware would make me think long and hard about rejecting the camera as not fit for purpose. That model of SEEK camera has been released long enough for a bug fix firmware to have been created so it is not looking too hopeful on that front. SEEK Thermal are an ‘interesting’ company...... they can give fast responses to easy questions but the harder questions either take a long time to be answered or never get answered. Support can be very time consuming and I have to wonder whether the resources allocated to such are very limited. I am not saying that it is the case here, but I have come across situations previously where a product is developed and release before it is truly ready and so contains firmware bugs but the firmware developer has left the company or the company considers the project completed to their satisfaction...... the result is no further firmware development or releases. For this reason, if I buy a new product that has serious firmware bugs, I seriously consider returning it for a refund and buy something else instead. An example of what I mentioned above is a Vellerman USB/Wi-Fi connected oscilloscope that was being almost given away a few years ago. I bought two. The hardware is very nice and well designed but the firmware/software is a total disaster :( I soon realised why the units were being sold off cheap by retailers..... they were a liability as they would attract complaints. Members of the forum looked at the software used in the Android App and said it looked like the work of a child ! They began to rework the software but the effort needed likely exceeded the interest of those involved and the development appears to have stopped. Vellerman were actually very interested in the work as I suspect it was digging them out of a hole, but they did nothing to progress the work. It was believed that the author of the original firmware and software had left Vellerman in the lurch and no one else would take on the re-writing of the code (understandably so) as it was so badly written. Those two Wi-Fi DSO’s are still sat on my storage shelf awaiting a decision on their fate..... the hardware and Wi-Fi connectivity to a phone or tablet is really rather good, just such a pity about the software etc.
So my recommendation to you is to think carefully about whether to keep your camera and tolerate its issues as I strongly suspect you will not see a bug fix any time soon. That particular Seek camera is strangely not that common amongst this forums membership so I doubt anyone here can help you with a custom firmware, especially without the Source Code. Sadly the bugs could be buries in the heart of the code making correction a major undertaking. I have yet to see a new firmware release fir the Reveal series of cameras. FLIR on the other hand do release bug fix firmwares.
Do not be tempted to buy the FLUKE equivalent of the SEEK Shot..... that is also a bugfest that should be avoided.
Fraser
-
Regarding my comment on SEEK and Fever Detection Cameras.....
At one point in time earlier this year, SEEK Thermal stopped shipping their imaging cores out of the USA as domestic demand fir them was taking their full production capacity. The SEEK Thermal imaging cores have been employed in vast numbers of Fever Screening thermal camera solutions around the World. The Chinese Government issued an edit that all domestic Thermal Camera manufacturers should concentrate on developing effective Fever Screening Thermal cameras as a matter of urgency and priority over other products. The result was a veritable explosion of fever screening camera products into the marketplace. Fir speed of development the SEEK Thermal imaging cores were often used but the OEM’s were not too happy about the cost and fragile delivery chain of the SEEK Thermal cores. Some domestic thermal imaging cores were released that can compete with the SEEK Thermal offerings and do we are seeing new cameras coming out of China with domestically produced imaging cores. SEEK Thermal cores remain in very high demand and SEEK Thermal has developed their own Fever Screening Camera and temperature reference system. The use of a temperature reference in the FOV improves the usually less than stellar temperature measurement accuracy of the camera. I would love to have one of those SEEK systems to play with but they are not cheap ! SEEK Thermal have understandably concentrated on development and refinement of Fever Screening Cameras so other products like thecSEEK Shot have taken a back seat.
The Worldwide Coronavirus Pandamic has been a terrible blow to world economies and populations but the thermal imaging camera manufacturers have seen demand fir Fever Screening products the likes of which have not been seen before, even during the last SARS outbreak. For them, the Pandemic is an opportunity to sell, sell, sell ! They just needed appropriate cameras and they needed them quickly. Cameras could be built relatively quickly using the SEEK Thermal OEM core as it has a USB output and API’s for Windows, Linux and Android. OEM’s just needed to write the Fever Screening applications for the host computer. The same appears to be true fir the domestic Chinese imaging cores.
Fraser
-
Thank you very much Fraser.
It’s sad to know I may never get support from factory or forum member for the firmware. But I may keep it anyway because despite of the disadvantages, this model is still the best performance/size per price.
I have tried Seek Reveal but I cannot bear it’s weird view angle (the screen and the focal plain are not parallel). Other “card-like” TICs from Flir or Fluke are too expensive for their performance.
Thank you for your reply again.
-
Have you looked at the HTi HT-A2 ?
https://hti-instrument.com/products/ht-a2-thermal-imager
The A1 uses the Seek Thermal OEM core. The A2 may also use a Seek Core but the higher resolution QVGA model. The A1 was discussed on this forum and, from memory, the views were generally positive. There is a teardown of an A1 on the internet here......
https://youtu.be/owc-vJKEi1c
Fraser
-
A cross reference provided on the Seek vs HTi cameras by Tonykids :-+
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/2375/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/yet-another-cheap-thermal-imager-incoming/2375/)
Tonykids comment ......
SEEK modules "C2 Starter Kit" https://detail.1688.com/offer/580307068706.html (https://detail.1688.com/offer/580307068706.html)
it seems that
HT-101=SEEK COMPACT
HT-201=SEEK COMPACT PRO
HT-A1=SEEK SHOT
HT-A2=SEEK SHOT PRO
it's interesting that HT-101/A1 is 220*160 but seek is 206*156
HT-301=xinfrared T3S :)
-
Interesting discussion of the Seek Shot and Pro version.
From what Seek Thermal said at the time, the recorded images are not Radiometric and cannot be analysed after saving on a computer.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-shot-series/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seek-shot-series/)
The SEEK Thermal statement on the stored images.........
“ Seek Thermal Support - Seek Shot Series - FAQ
How Do I Get Captured Images Off Of The Device?
The primary way is to connect the Seek Shot to a PC or Mac using a USB cable, and selecting OK when a dialog box pops up asking to connect to USB. Then the Seek Shot should show up as a connected drive with a Photo folder and a Video folder, copy images and videos as needed.
The secondary method is to upload images from the Shot Series to the Seekview app (onto a mobile device) and transfer from there.
Note: Raw thermal or radiometric data is not available from images pulled off of device or app. All images are “flat screenshots” of any thermal analysis performed on device or on Seekview app.“
Fraser
-
SEEK Thermal's latest fever detection release.......
https://www.thermal.com/seekscan.html# (https://www.thermal.com/seekscan.html#)
Seek Scan Kiosk. As I said, the focus of the Worlds civilian thermal camera manufacturers is currently on Fever Detection systems.
Fraser
-
Thank you very much Fraser!
-
Has anyone any idea what Seek are asking for their Scan Kiosk?
Not that I want or need one, just interested.
-
$2695
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seek-thermal-launches-seek-scan-kiosk-for-simple-all-in-one-temperature-screening-solution-301139678.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seek-thermal-launches-seek-scan-kiosk-for-simple-all-in-one-temperature-screening-solution-301139678.html)
-
Full SEEK Thermal Fever scanning lineup with prices from Tequipment....
https://www.tequipment.net/Seek-Thermal/Scan/Building-and-Industrial-Thermal-Imagers/ (https://www.tequipment.net/Seek-Thermal/Scan/Building-and-Industrial-Thermal-Imagers/)
Fraser
-
soon I will be able to hold seek scan in my hands
-
There has been a Seek Scan system on eBay for a while. The price started high and is dropping over the weeks.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seek-Scan-Thermal-Imaging-System-PN-YW-AAA-/233683922440?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Seek-Scan-Thermal-Imaging-System-PN-YW-AAA-/233683922440?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49292)
I would be interested to know what is used to make the Blackbody reference. I am suspecting a coated metal plate with a foil heater attached to its rear and a relatively simple PID controller. I have also considered the possibility of a Peltier element array and TEC but that would draw more current, be more expensive and would normally require a finned heat sink on the rear.
A cheap portable Blackbody would be a neat accessory for those wishing to check their camera measurement accuracy in the field.
Fraser
-
Anyone have any insight into the firmware?
By the way, I think the shutter is not controlled by the main firmware, because every time it hangs/freezes, the FFC/NUC action continues.
-
I got replies from Seek and I even gave them this post URL for up-to-date bug list, but I don’t think they will fix them any time soon.
I think maybe someone can take a look into their update files, and try to extract/modify from the .IMG file?
https://support.thermal.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002088159-How-do-i-update-my-Seek-Shot-with-the-latest-software
Maybe it’s easy for some of you... Good luck.