bought a thermal on ebay, sell wants to sign an ITAR/EAR form

[edubz]

Why is the seller giving me this form? Will I get put on some government list? I never had to do this before....

[svgurus]

I warned about ITAR in one of your numerous threads In this thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/infiray-c210-thermal-camera-review/ one man with American flag near username claims he'd done some research with lawyer, you can try to ask him or wait for other kind fellas that didn't answer similar question when I was asking it about delivery to Russia. whad'ya bought, btw?)

[edubz]

I warned about ITAR in one of your numerous threads In this thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/infiray-c210-thermal-camera-review/ one man with American flag near username claims he'd done some research with lawyer, you can try to ask him or wait for other kind fellas that didn't answer similar question when I was asking it about delivery to Russia. whad'ya bought, btw?)

yeah but I bought a agm 25 mm thermal on ebay and they never sent me anything. I am trying to buy another thermal and now its a headache

Its best to find a seller that wont put me on a list?

[Bill W]

The seller is obliged to compile provide a list of who has bought what for the EAR every (month / half / full year).

As long as yours does not end up in a cave in Afghanistan or a yacht in Crimea the feds won't even bother asking EAR for the list.
If it does - you get a visit to explain how it got there.

As long as YOU also have a list and a similar form with who you sold it to they then move on to them (' a bloke called Mickey Mouse down the pub' is not an adequate answer)

[svgurus]

You live in US? There are many things sold in US on ebay, I thought its not itar's business what is sold domestically.

[edubz]

The seller is obliged to compile provide a list of who has bought what for the EAR every (month / half / full year).

As long as yours does not end up in a cave in Afghanistan or a yacht in Crimea the feds won't even bother asking EAR for the list.
If it does - you get a visit to explain how it got there.

As long as YOU also have a list and a similar form with who you sold it to they then move on to them (' a bloke called Mickey Mouse down the pub' is not an adequate answer)

it was suppose to be a gift, what a nightmare

[edubz]

You live in US? There are many things sold in US on ebay, I thought its not itar's business what is sold domestically.

yeah,  US.

I dont know, its becoming an issue, I want my money back the guy ruined my over night shipping with the crap

[IwuzBornanerd]

Merely being in the US is not sufficient because the US government considers something an export if it involves the transfer of material or information from a US citizen to a foreign person regardless of where the foreign person is located.  So if someone selling on e-bay wants to "cover his anus" he needs to check whether the person ordering a sensitive item is a US citizen (or at least a "green card" holder) or not.  A signed form might actually keep him out of jail if the purchaser lies & the item does turn up in a cave in Afghanistan.  If you give such an item to someone you are then responsible for determining if that person is a US citizen.  I think the way they word it is that you are expected to make a "reasonable effort" to determine that status.

Stick with "<9Hz" cameras & there should be no problem. 

I would not be surprised to find US sellers on e-bay who are not aware of any export controls.

I suggest reviewing Fraser's thread on the topic:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/the-challenges-of-discussing-thermal-imaging-technology-on-a-public-forum-%28/

[ArsenioDev]

I warned about ITAR in one of your numerous threads In this thread - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/infiray-c210-thermal-camera-review/ one man with American flag near username claims he'd done some research with lawyer, you can try to ask him or wait for other kind fellas that didn't answer similar question when I was asking it about delivery to Russia. whad'ya bought, btw?)

Oh hey that's me!
Just fill out the form, it's a tracing thing for dual-use items, if you aren't doin anything sus it won't matter much.

[svgurus]

And my unanswered question - is it legal to sell 9hz flir tau2 to Russian citizen?) one man sells it in Germany, ships worldwide) sometimes they dont specify 9/30hz or the markings are damaged. where to read about this stuff and different "tiers" for countries? whole ITAR articles are huge

[Fraser]

Here you go, in plain English

https://www.flircameras.com/export_conditions

https://www.flir.co.uk/support-center/oem/as-far-as-30-fps-vs.-9-fps-video-rates-are-concerned-why-use-one-over-the-other/

Basically, if it is frame rate restricted to <9fps  the core or camera is easy to ship to most non terrorist supporting or embargoed countries.

I have had cameras held by US export control until identified and approved for Export to the UK under STA status. If you sell a high frame rate core or camera and try to pass it off as a <9fps core or camera on export documentation you are breaking Federal Law so do not expect any seller to do this. US sellers are often very nervous about exporting thermal imaging cameras and, even if legally permitted , will not sell to people outside the USA.

[Fraser]

And more information….

https://groupgets.com/faqs/is-an-export-license-required-for-tau2-quark2-thermal-imaging-cameras

FLIR Export fact sheets….

http://www1.futureelectronics.com/doc/FLIR%20SYSTEMS/Lepton%20Export%20fact%20sheet.pdf

https://assets.tequipment.net/assets/1/26/Documents/FLIR/421_0029_00/421_0029_00_doc_5.pdf

[Fraser]

What happens to the shipper if they are caught breaking the rules in thermal imaging equipment export……

https://efoia.bis.doc.gov/index.php/documents/export-violations/export-violations-2016/1066-e2464/file

No wonder US based sellers get nervous when exporting such technology!

[Fraser]

End User Statement for shipments of cores and cameras to Russia and Crimea ….

https://customer.flir.com/Content/GTC/FLIR_EUS_Russia_and_Ukraine.docx

Russia is subject to US sanctions so you need to discuss export with the seller and BIS in the USA.

So …..

Question….. is it legal to ship a TAU2 to Russia

Answer…… yes, if the required paperwork is completed and a licence obtained for high frame rate versions of cores and cameras.

[Fraser]

Another legal case…. USA vs Russian who broke export rules and mislabelled thermal imaging products….

https://www.x20.org/illegally-smuggling-thermal-imaging-systems/

Note that it is the exporter who gets prosecuted and not the intended recipient unless there is an international arms trading ring type of case.

[svgurus]

Thanks for so much info, Fraser!) Case about Russian who got caught for smuggling thermals was discussed on hunters forums that i read but it was 2012-14, laws could change since then) I will read these articles, thank you again. One more question - do separately sold lenses require paperwork too? lenses for civilian products

[Fraser]

Some specialist lenses are included in the Export regulations. I will need to check but it is normally the lenses used with very capable thermal imaging systems as they are considered part of those system solutions. I have seen US sellers refusing to export ANY thermal imaging lenses for this reason which can be a bit of an over reaction but understandable.

Where thermal imaging export rules are concerned, the rules are pretty much unchanged since 2014 but the embargoed and sanctioned countries list is dynamic. Russia has been subject to sanctions due to some recent activities, or suspected activities. This is why sellers need to check on the latest export restriction lists as they are ever changing.

Some people think that BIS will not take action on a simple single thermal camera export transgression. I am not so certain as they like to make an example of those who break their rules and we live in very troubled times. Offenders are likely to be subjected to some investigation to check that they are not part of a smuggling ring. Not great to have on your record in the USA…. Person of Interest !

[edubz]

ended up going with another  seller, saving $500. so I guess it worked out.


the seller did NOT mention I had to sign anything on his ebay page, so it was technically a breach of contract on their part

[Ultrapurple]

the seller did NOT mention I had to sign anything on his ebay page, so it was technically a breach of contract on their part

That is an interesting point: is it incumbent upon the seller to make the buyer aware of any applicable laws pertaining to the item being sold.

Here in the UK there are a lot of laws about the ownership of motor vehicles. For example, it's compulsory to have insurance at all times, there is an annual ownership tax, and once a car is more than a couple of years old it must pass an annual safety inspection. Failing to comply with these requirements can lead to prosecution and confiscation of the vehicle.

If I buy a used car on eBay I don't expect the seller to tell me this. The onus is on me to know, and to make the necessary arrangements. Would I consider it a breach of contract because the vendor had failed to mention it? No.

I know that thermal cameras are a little different in that the vendor can be held liable if the buyer does something silly, but expecting a buyer to sign a suitable transfer of ownership paper so that the vendor is covered. In my view it's not an unreasonable thing to request or require. Back to motor cars for a moment: part of the transfer of ownership here is a little piece of paper the vendor sends to the relevant authority to notify the change of ownership and transfer legal responsibility for the vehicle to the new owner. Without that, if the buyer were to drive the car without paying the necessary taxes then the vendor could be liable.

Funny old world, isn't it.

Getting back to the original point then, it isn't unreasonable for the eBay vendor to want some proof of sale and while neglecting to state that on the listing may have been impolite, I don't see it as a deal-breaking breach of contract. The law's the law, whether you agree with it or not.

[Bill W]

End User Statement for shipments of cores and cameras to Russia and Crimea ….

https://customer.flir.com/Content/GTC/FLIR_EUS_Russia_and_Ukraine.docx

Russia is subject to US sanctions so you need to discuss export with the seller and BIS in the USA.

So …..

Question….. is it legal to ship a TAU2 to Russia

Answer…… yes, if the required paperwork is completed and a licence obtained for high frame rate versions of cores and cameras.

And the real world answer for private transactions is "no" as I would think it quite unlikely to get a license !

Also note that the sanctions may also include 9Hz cameras, as embargoes and Wassenaar are considered together in the UK at least.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/russia-sanctions-guidance/russia-sanctions-guidance
So a 9Hz QVGA to a 'private citizen' in Donetsk is very different to say 20 off 60Hz VGA to a petrochem factory with western links in Vladivostok.

[Bill W]

ended up going with another  seller, saving $500. so I guess it worked out.
the seller did NOT mention I had to sign anything on his ebay page, so it was technically a breach of contract on their part

No, as stated by ultrapurple, but a bit silly and not helping keep you informed.

Let's play the scenario...
You are a sensible US citizen with no intent to sell or or export - so far so good.
You know not to export as you'd check the law first and do it right - also so far so good (the car law analogy)

However if you stop for a coffee, your car gets broken into and the thermal is stolen, and then somehow ends up found in a cave in Afghanistan...
EAR/BIS track the serial via FLIR/importer to the seller
When EAR/BIS ask the seller he will probably link to you anyway, fancy EAR form or not, through his sales records.  However when asked you would have a crime number so that is still OK for you but double trouble for anyone they caught for stealing it.
However if the seller cannot show who he sold to then he is in the doo-doo as last link in the chain

[Ultrapurple]

Well said, Bill.

[Vipitis]

If Teledyne wants to remain in the civilians market globally with FLIR cameras, they might get a chance to sue against ITAR. As internationalen competition (not only the massive advancements from Chinese manufacturers) is ahead of them due to regulations. Someone linked an article a while ago where it possibility was discussed. As other civilian goods managed to leave ITAR restrictions after there was global competition.

And without becoming political - the US has now supplied Afghan forces with the technology who fled to Iran, as well as the now ruling Taliban in Afghanistan. So who isn't able to get their hands on some of the technology. There were photos on Twitter of "one way explosive UAVs" (essentially cruise missile, but this quotes a DoD statement) that hinted some special camera core behind a black "window".

[Bill W]

If Teledyne wants to remain in the civilians market globally with FLIR cameras, they might get a chance to sue against ITAR

First we are talking EAR / Wassenaar, not ITAR here.  DoD lost that debate years ago.  I would split 'civilian' into retail and OEM/professional.

Now is FLIR's 'retail' worth any extra effort at all ?  Debateable IMO

The small cores (Boson, Lepton) are OK now under EAR for the likes of drone (DJI) and similar system builders

For 'western' professional end product use EAR / Wassenaar is near to a non-issue as the trivial work is inside FLIR's distribution chain (sales of  K65, E8 say), for the end user it it just means 'do not export' which will not bother many.

It is more of a pain for OEMs, but then Teledyne (through DALSA not FLIR) have in-house Canadian sensor & core build anyway now plus ULIS based cores for OEM / professional areas where EAR might kick up a bit with US products.  That is probably an effective lever to keep BIS-EAR in line anyway.

That leaves sales to the likes of India or South America open to the Chinese without competition, and assume China would 'buy local' regardless.

[ArsenioDev]

And without becoming political - the US has now supplied Afghan forces with the technology who fled to Iran, as well as the now ruling Taliban in Afghanistan. So who isn't able to get their hands on some of the technology. There were photos on Twitter of "one way explosive UAVs" (essentially cruise missile, but this quotes a DoD statement) that hinted some special camera core behind a black "window".

Oh yeah I was tracking those, seen some more concerning developments in IIR stuff being used for this as of late.