Author Topic: bought this HD mega pixel medium wave core does anyone have a lens for it ? :-)  (Read 1025 times)

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Offline elador

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bought a thermal camera 1280 by 1024 cooled middle wave core
any suggestion on where to get a cheapo lens or how to proceed with this madness  :palm:
as for the housing i thought to cnc some thin alu housing to hold the camera lens and additional electronics

missed by a bit an amazing auction by items and prices
check the prices and photos
auction link https://murphyauction.com/Auction/Details/8243#item_list (flir)
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 01:28:41 pm by elador »
 

Offline elador

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Re: bought this hd medium wave core does anyone has a lens for it :-)
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2020, 10:14:20 am »
regards the auctioned cameras..
anyone knows why what is the additional flir camera on top used for? pure curiosity  :popcorn:

flir used an irzoom lens which would be awesome to get / buy but the price is much more then those auctioned cameras sold for with the flir cores :-) or what i can spend at the moment
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 10:49:15 am by elador »
 

Online Fraser

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That module on the top appears to be the standard electronics package for processing the cooled FPA output. It looks familiar as it is a similar format the TAU cores.

With regret I cannot help further with the project. That high resolution cooled camera is heavily controlled and technical documentation is understandably limited. FLIR will likely be hesitant in sharing technical detail with anyone except the original purchaser of the core.

Fraser
 

Offline elador

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thanks for your comment
i know any relevant datasheet requiring  NDA
and i can get the specs and interface data from the manufacture
what im interested at is finding a good deal or vendor for lenses just in case someone has one or know where to get one cheaply (again lens)
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 10:59:30 am by elador »
 

Offline elador

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the auctioned items appears to have two modules the what im assuming insb core with the cryo and additional flir (with logo) looks like tau or similar on top the insb core
 

Online Fraser

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Regarding a ‘cheapo’ lens...... as the owner of several MWIR cameras I have searched for MWIR lenses and can advise that suitable lenses are both rare and expensive. Such lenses are normally found on professional lab grade cameras and rarity makes them valuable.

Options that may interest you are as follows.....

Look for an eBay seller who is either selling an old military cooled camera and steal the lens from it. The cooler will likely be dead so the camera will be scrap. The sensor size will hopefully be large due to age. Lens resolution may be an issue however. The scanning type military cameras can be MWIR so their lens system may be modifiable as well.

If buying a lens that was used on a cooled MWIR camera such as the AGA 780 or Inframetrics 5xx, 6xx or 7xx you need to consider whether the lens provides what you need. The 5xx and 6xx lenses are supplental types and NOT primary lenses. The 7xx is a primary lens, but only part of It ! There is a lens installed in the cameras lens mount that is the rear lens element of the lens system. You could buy a complete 7xx series camera and extract the lens parts that you need. These old cooled cameras are relatively inexpensive these days. Just make sure that the lenses are not corroded. Also be aware that he resolution of the lenses may be sub optimal for your high resolution core.

Some eBay sellers dismantle military lenses and sell the individual lens elements. The problem here is that the AR coating of the lens elements is then not known. You would be better off to buy an Inframetrics 5xx or 6xx MWIR supplemental lens and dismantling it for the lens elements.

There is also the possibility that a reasonable primary lens may be built using ZnSe lens elements that are available from companies like Edmund Optics.

Is your core new/functional ? If working, it is worth spending decent money on the lens system. If just wanting to test the core, buy a simple cheap 20mm diameter laser cutter lens and place it in front of the detector window at the required focus distance. Good enough for a simple test. If the cooler is dead, you have a nice paperweight.

I do not know the back story to your purchase of this core but be aware that if it was decommissioned the coolers Helium may have been released, effectively killing it. Normally the detector window is also smashed though so you may be lucky.

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 11:14:56 am by Fraser »
 

Offline elador

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well the core is brand new
i can test it using my other cooled mwir camera that i have the cincinnati irris-256
but i haven't tested it yet to be honest
i also thought about building it stand alone with small frame grabber and nvidia tx2 module with a vision of using it on a small drone assuming the final assembly wont weight much
still need to figure out the housing size and weight limits once ill have the additional items i imagined mostly the lens:-) and the needed items for the stand alone
energy wise should be doable for a small drone considering those new cryo are energy efficient
 

Online Fraser

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Regarding the auction cores.... the attached picture shows what I was thinking of regarding the ‘standard’ FLIR video processing module.......
 

Offline elador

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spot on good catch :-)
should have google myself im guessing the retail for those cameras is over 100k brand new (which is how they look) with the lenses and prob half for just the core so someone made an excellent deal
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 11:36:13 am by elador »
 

Online Fraser

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There is a Nice 50mm lens on this camera and you get the lens mount this way as well :)
Worth making a offer ? There is the issue of lens circle size however. It may, or may not fully illuminate your detector array. Worth doing a test with the Cincinnati camera lens that you already own.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CINCINNATI-ELECTRONICS-Irris-256ST-infrared-Radiometric-Imaging-system-/222762239450

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 11:39:49 am by Fraser »
 

Offline elador

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lol already have two of those cameras they are actually not bad got mine 5 or 6 years ago probably for less then 400 shipped each
i think the resolution is 256 by 256  / 32 by 32 or 16 by 16 binned with 3 different colors scheme and ill have to dig the specs for the actual refresh rate but i think its more then 30

The IRRIS-256ST uses a cooled, 256-element square InSb focal plane array that provides an 8.7-by 8.7-degree FOV. The advertised thermal sensitivity is 0.025°K at 3000K NETD.

after seeing the flir assembly i think ill sell some of my stuff and order irzoom lens same as the one attached to the flir cores
wish my core came with usb plug and av
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 12:17:19 pm by elador »
 

Offline ArsenioDev

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Lemme guess elador, Local markets?
Some of the stuff I've seen for sale over there has BOGGLED MY MIND.
 

Offline 1os

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hi. I have a lens for a camera of this range. I don't know its name. if he's interested, you can contact me.
 

Offline 1os

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.
 

Offline elador

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i was actually looking for something like the irzoom lens
anyhow sent you a msg
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 08:08:40 am by elador »
 

Online Fraser

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Before spending a lot if money on this core, have you confirmed that the OEM is willing to provide you with the following support free of charge ?

1. Core ICD
2. Core command set
3. Core calibration utility software

I ask because, in my experience, the above information can be either difficult to obtain, or horrendously expensive. This is the problem with buying naked cores, rather than complete cameras containing a pre-calibrated core with fitted lens. The command set remains a challenge in some cases.

I hope you get this core running but please do assess the cost and availability of what you need to get it to a working camera state. It can be very expensive and very challenging to do so if the OEM does not help. Be aware the OEM will almost certainly want the serial number and may ask questions about how you came to own the unit. It goes with the territory when dealing with high end thermal cameras and cores.

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 10:50:45 am by Fraser »
 

Offline zxase258

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I have obtained some FLIR HRC control commands through reverse engineering. If the HRC camera has a Neutrino core and no other processor, the core may use the same commands as FLIR TAU to adjust the basic image parameters. At the same time there are some extended commands to set the frame rate, lens zoom, lens focus, etc. In addition, the protective cover on the circuit board can be removed to confirm whether the internal circuit board is the same as FLIR TAU, I think it is the same.
 

Online Fraser

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Zxase258,

Interesting to hear that you extracted commands from a core.

Sadly the OP has a core that is not from FLIR. I can understand the confusion as the OP highlighted some FLIR cores that were sold in an auction. The OP may be able to extract a command set from the camera if the operating system FLASH is readable. Sadly some cores require an external utility to calibrate them and directly access the calibration tables to do so.

Fraser
 

Offline elador

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hi
im on the process of signing a nda form
before that i thought about doing some side channel analysis as the core of the core :-) is xilinx virtex 5
it require removal of the virtex metal heat-sink an em probe and analyzing the bitstream encryption mechanism
anyhow ill keep this post update as at least for this moment i have a strong desire to make it an awesome camera
 
 

Offline zxase258

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Zxase258,

Interesting to hear that you extracted commands from a core.

Sadly the OP has a core that is not from FLIR. I can understand the confusion as the OP highlighted some FLIR cores that were sold in an auction. The OP may be able to extract a command set from the camera if the operating system FLASH is readable. Sadly some cores require an external utility to calibrate them and directly access the calibration tables to do so.

Fraser

Sorry, I didn't check the post carefully. The commands I have are not obtained from the core, but are based on the software that FLIR opens to OEM customers. The "inside" of these software contains much more than the "surface" shows. To put it simply, the software provided to customers by FLIR is not specially developed, but is cut from a full-featured factory software. Therefore, some factory commands are retained in the software, but functions related to these commands have been removed. This includes option control commands for PHOTON/TAU cameras, frame rate setting commands, etc. I have not yet figured out how to use them, the camera has security level control. Out of respect for FLIR, I will not disclose these command. But if someone wants to get them, they are somewhere on the Internet. By the way, China used to spend a lot of money to buy ULIS detectors, and also bought some FLIR 9Hz cameras and converted them to 30Hz. In recent years, China has completely mastered the technology of mass production of detectors. Now the 384/640 resolution thermal imaging core made in China only needs 30-50% of the price of TAU core, and some commercial products are even cheaper. , Such as T3S. Attached is an interesting Chinese made Photon, using indogo's frame and detector, the processing circuit is completely replaced to obtain a frame rate of 30Hz. ;)

« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 08:30:10 am by zxase258 »
 

Online Fraser

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zxase258,

Thank you for the very interesting post.

My FLIR SC4000 cooled Science camera uses a special software GUI to configure the unit. That GUI is integrated into the FLIR ResearchIR software package. There was a ‘stand-alone’ version of the GUI provided with SC4000’s sold to certain customers  who needed it. The separate GUI was called “Big GUI” by FLIR ! That was actually a hint about its capabilities  ;) The GUI is supplied in a state that is limited in terms of what it provides to the user by way of configuration options. However if you know the correct code sequence to enter on the keyboard, it unlocks the GUI to the full factory capabilities as this software is, in reality, the factory configuration utility  :-+ In the unlocked state, the GUI has access to all settings in the camera  :) I now understand why the GUI software is a controlled distribution product.

I wonder whether the TAU GUI is similarly locked and you are just seeing the command set that is available in the unlocked state ?

Sorry to the OP that this is effectively “off-topic” but it does highlight the need for a GUI utility for some cameras and cores, plus some industry secrets regarding the GUI software that is provided to customers  :)

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 11:20:33 am by Fraser »
 

Online Fraser

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I just confirmed that the TAU GUI does indeed have a hidden Manufacturers mode of operation  ;)

Run the GUI, with or without a camera connected, then press "Ctrl-Shift-M" and a Password challenge appears.

I know the password for the SC6000 GUI and TAU CNV GUI but neither seems to work with the standard TAU GUI. The TAU CNV GUI uses "www.flir.com".

This is a discussion for another thread though so I will stop here.

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 09:16:24 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline elador

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an interesting development in my story
so i was attracted by the company to sign an nda and during the process they ask the serial number and i thought why not just give it to them
well its a big NO NO  |O just as lesson for future cases if any
they send their pack of lawyer dogs  :wtf: after me threatening me that holding such a camera is illegal and i should deposit it in the near by police station or at their hands
until their and other security initials letters agencies investigation is finished then they will decide whether to help me with the datasheet or not  :blah:
and to sum things up it was a very hostile chat from both ends  :box:
ending in what i assume is a waiting game to see their next step  :popcorn:
i believe that they fear that someone who havent signed an nda and who is not obligate to comply their rules is holding it and can do what ever he want with their high tech cam  :-/O
so if you happen to get such a camera dont be lazy and figure things out by your self and if you happen to contact the manufacturer dont give any detail for free
« Last Edit: September 21, 2020, 11:35:01 pm by elador »
 

Online Fraser

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Elador,

This development does not surprise me at all. I believe FLIR would behave similarly if you contacted them about such a high specification core and were not the original purchaser. Such cores remain highly regulated and, in theory, should not be resold without the knowledge of the OEM.

Your cores serial number will have revealed its original purchaser, who will now be asked to answer some awkward questions regarding your core. If they sold it without fulfilling the documentation requirements, they are in trouble. If it has gone ‘missing’ from their inventory they are still in trouble for lax security and audit.
Sadly if the core has gone ‘missing’ from the original purchasers inventory it will likely be deemed not your property and attempts will be made to recover it through legal channels. That is what would happen in the UK anyway. The law in your country may be different. Can you get your money back from the seller, should the need arise ?

Becoming ‘involved’ with high specification thermal imaging cores intended for Military Applications is fraught with risk and challenges as sadly you have just discovered. The authorities do not mess about when such technology goes missing or when it appears in the public domain. The reason is simple, these cores are both sensitive technology and high value. If they are appearing on the open market they could be ‘floor losses’ from the OEM or a manufacturer of thermal cameras. In both cases the authorities will be concerned about the breach of security as such cores have a strict ‘birth to death’ paperwork trail associated with them. Someone should have missed such a core if it went ‘walkies’.

I am truly sorry that the situation has escalated to legal demands, but you are now in the World of Israeli controlled technology and, having worked in your country, I know not to mess around with your security services ! Be careful how you handle this going forwards. It could get very serious, very quickly  :(

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 12:26:17 am by Fraser »
 

Offline elador

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lucky me  |O
the pros of living here is that everyone knows each other
the cons of living here is that everyone knows each other
and so the same people they know i know and probably on a more personal interaction base
and law is a law
if this camera reported stolen then obviously it has to get back to the original owner
i take the complete risk of dealing with used equipment as we all diyers do
regards to flir i only have good things to say about their tech guys and research department dudes unlike this company
i had a chance of doing business and research with them in the past and they used my free advise to make some good money
and so i thought why not to cash back my goodwill but apparently their ex ceo who referred me to the tech guy didnt know his intentions
and if he knew he would have warned me not to approach them but whats done is done
and so im putting the camera a side for a while just to see if they serious or just barking
and will update regards updates if any will follow 
this post might evolve to be very interesting  :box:
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 01:07:05 am by elador »
 


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