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Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: Ranayna on October 04, 2021, 10:24:55 am

Title: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Ranayna on October 04, 2021, 10:24:55 am
Hi everyone,

i am looking into an affordable, if not to say cheap, entry into thermal imaging. My main application would be diagnostics of PCBs, but i will of course also look at my house when i get such a camera ;) But i do not need ruggedization for professional or outdoor use.
I want the ability to save the pictures to a PC in a common format without much hassle. And since i do not know how much use i will really geht out of a thermal camera, i want it to be cheap, and i want to buy used.

Ever since BigClive first showed one of the CAT mobile phones with built in thermal camera, i always found them incredibly neat. And by now there are three available models, the S60, S61 and S62 pro. There are also a couple of other manufacturers. This should be a complete list:

https://geizhals.eu/?cat=umtsover&xf=146_W%E4rmebild

From what i can find, all of these, except the S62 pro, seem to have the same thermal resolution, though it is almost impossible to find official information.

Which one of these can be recommended? I only want to use this as thermal camera, i do not care about the mobile phone part or how old the android is, as long as it still can work offline.
Can any one of these be "hacked"?
What is the going rate for these used in the EU? I see prices all over the place, from 100 Euro for dubious condition, up to almost new price

Standalone handheld thermal imagers are always significantly more expensive as far as i have seen, or am i just not looking for the right things?
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Bill W on October 04, 2021, 01:23:56 pm
The CAT phones are FLIR leptons, so will be 160x120 low frame rate at best.  The apparent image is boosted by the visual overlay (MSX) which is a complete pain for close in PCB work as parallax wrecks it.
None have thermal autofocus as your link might suggest.

Other options may depend where you place 'cheap' and if you were up for building from a core.

As documented in a few threads I have posted here you can build a camera head from the imager components of fire service cameras for about GBP200, and include the customisations you'd want for PCB work like manual focus, power in etc.
The complete cameras on eBay are in the GBP300 - 400 range for known good and working.  As a camera these are far too big for PCB work of course, but are a source of high quality cores that are 320x240 pixel, 60Hz, power in = video out.
Good searches would be for Bullard T3, Bullard T4, Argus2 and Argus3 (Argus were sold through MSA-Auer in Germany so might be found that way rather than as EEV/Marconi/e2v)

Here is an example build that I have documented for the core from an Argus3:
http://www.fire-tics.co.uk/project3/index.htm (http://www.fire-tics.co.uk/project3/index.htm)

Bill
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Vipitis on October 04, 2021, 03:52:17 pm
I have both the S60 and S62 Pro, but I don't recommend getting them for the Leptons build in. Maybe as a salvage, but even with better software and maybe a custom focusable lens - it will not be fun to use it. Sure it's radiometric, small and cheap - but it just looks horrible.

New Options from China or some ebay find will give you better result.
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Ranayna on October 05, 2021, 06:28:05 am
Vipitis, do you have any pointers what i should search for, regarding these newer options from china?

Bill W, while that seems to be a decent option for something intermediate or even advanced, at the moment i just do not want to start another project that i might not finish :D I really want something ready to go. But i will keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Fraser on October 05, 2021, 10:45:30 am
InfIray T2L for a phone dongle camera and C210 for an all-in-one

https://www.infiray.com/T2Lthermalcamera.html (https://www.infiray.com/T2Lthermalcamera.html)

https://www.infiray.com/C200-Thermal-Camera.html (https://www.infiray.com/C200-Thermal-Camera.html)

Forum comment on C200/C210….

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/infiray-c210-thermal-camera-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/infiray-c210-thermal-camera-review/)

It appears that the C210 has USB recording but the C200 does not.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005001936329537.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005001936329537.html)


With thermal imaging you do get what you pay for so expectations need to be managed. That said, the performance of the budget thermal imaging cameras coming out of China recently has improved greatly and they offer high frame rates rather than the normal <9fps frame rate restricted models that come from the USA etc.
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Ranayna on October 05, 2021, 01:39:54 pm
Ohh, nice, that C200/C210 is a lot cheaper than i expected. Admittedly, more than i was considering paying for a used thermal imaging phone, but that unit seems to be much more capable.
The link you send seems to be down, but i found this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001599665046.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d5bxi8W (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001599665046.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.27424c4d5bxi8W)

The UTi260B seems to just be a rebadge of the C200? Or of the C210?

Looking for the UTI260B on Amazon.de it's almost 500 Euro, which would be too much. On Ali it is, supposedly including VAT, a bit over 300 Euro. Wasn't there something with a value of more that 150 Euro? It has been ages since i last ordered directly from china, and this would be the most expensive single item...
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Fraser on October 05, 2021, 01:51:40 pm
In the new UK VAT regulations, anything imported costing more than £138 attracts VAT collected at DESTINATION rather than at the seller. I suspect the European Union is now doing similar. This means the item would arrive in your country and you would have to pay VAT and any paperwork fee before it would be delivered.

I personally would look for the C210 rather than the Uni-T version. Just personal preference and I have read quality control complaints about the Uni-T version. As I say, just personal preference.

Fraser
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Fraser on October 05, 2021, 01:55:24 pm
C210 adverts….

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001936329537.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000018158039827%22%7D (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001936329537.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-1&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000018158039827%22%7D)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003002577702.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-2&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000023169755063%22%7D (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003002577702.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-2&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000023169755063%22%7D)

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002637993090.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000021509809216%22%7D (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002637993090.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.495d4a85Vrjhn7&algo_pvid=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99&algo_exp_id=2f02a851-69f6-4bee-ae13-9851b5ce4d99-0&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000021509809216%22%7D)
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Ultrapurple on October 05, 2021, 02:24:51 pm
I find it very interesting to note that at about US$300 these 256x192 sensor imagers (49,152 pixels) are significantly cheaper on a per-pixel basis than the long-established 1 US cent per pixel benchmark we've been used to seeing for VGZ-and-lower uncooled LWIR cameras.

0.6 cents per pixel would predict:

At present there are very few 1024x768 uncooled LWIR cameras on the market and they're typically in the region of US$40,000 - roughly 8 times my 0.6 cent calculation. And although there is at least one 1920x1080 LWIR camera I've never dared to ask how much.

<edit> 1024x768 security cameras are beginning to appear but I don't know how pricey they are - see [urlhttps://www.focus2k.co.uk/product/cox-cx1000-cx1000-ip-security-camera/]here [/url]

I think it will be a while before we see such high resolutions available on AliExpress and eBay etc. But the day is coming closer...

<edit> I found a supplier in the UK offering 1024x768 cameras from GBP12,500 (up to >GBP40,000, depending on lens and configuration). That's only about three and a bit times my guesstimated $4800 for that resolution. One day they'll be on the surplus market  :D
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: bingo600 on October 05, 2021, 04:44:49 pm
Quote from: Ranayna on October 05, 2021, 01:39:54 pm
On Ali it is, supposedly including VAT, a bit over 300 Euro. Wasn't there something with a value of more that 150 Euro? It has been ages since i last ordered directly from china, and this would be the most expensive single item...

The 150€ is correct .. Means EU (Recipient country) VAT handling.
I Just bought a C210  |O .. You guyzz did it again.
Ali decucted the "Ali VAT" before checkout , so the VAT isn't paid twice.

I paid $277 , but get a "serious hit in DK" +25% (and a bit more as there is another additional tax for stuff over ~180$)  and THEN $23 in VAT handling

/Bingo
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: Fraser on October 05, 2021, 04:50:56 pm
Bingo,

You may still get a pleasant surprise from the declaration paperwork on which your VAT will be calculated  ;)
Title: Re: Cheap entry into thermal imaging?
Post by: bingo600 on October 05, 2021, 04:56:18 pm
Quote from: Fraser on October 05, 2021, 04:50:56 pm
Bingo,

You may still get a pleasant surprise from the declaration paperwork on which your VAT will be calculated  ;)

He..He
I hope thats what the $23 in VAT handling are for (DK-Mail fee)

/Bingo