Author Topic: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera  (Read 20045 times)

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Online Vipitis

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #125 on: January 08, 2019, 10:14:24 am »
Parallax...
 It won't go away unless you have a single optical path with a semi pass mirror and that won't work because no optical material is affordable that transmits both Spectra. Therefore my idea has always been to use very minor lens shift, this won't help at all ranges but it's more effective at close range.

Doing it computational with edge detection isn't possible as FLIR holds up the MSX Patent which is completely wasted as using image classification down to the pixels can be done in real time through Google today, and nobody has tried it yet. If you then map the thermal pixels onto a projected high resolution visible image and use the new edges from the classification, you could just solve for an easy interpolation but keep sharp edges. I have had the idea for a while but never the courage to look into the technical site of it, if nobody does it before me it will be a candidate for my bachelor project in ~5 years. but I believe that having a parallax shouldn't stop you but should rather give you more options. Real time 3D reconstruction from parallax on unthetered smartphones has been done a few times already in discontinued products like the Project Tango or that Nokia thing Microsoft restarted after closing all the nice project in their imaging research division. Phones these days even have an IR projector similar to Kinect that would make this simpler and work in the dark. So you would reconstruct a 3D scene with all your 6 cameras and IR cameras in the phone and project the thermal pixels onto the 3D model then interpolate new pixels(or use temporal valid pixels from previous frames by deviding against the device movement for example)
 using already known algorithms like linear or lanczos. Render out an image from a virtual camera in high resolution.

It's all a thought and a dream and more useful for the upcoming revolution in computational imaging using multiple tiny cameras in phones, drones and cars. But the smart users will find a way to improve it on the HTi cameras as well.
Since you already opened it, any sign of it giving you deeper access sensor data by tapping in somewhere, or all closed off?
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #126 on: January 08, 2019, 11:50:53 am »
A first surface gold mirror beam splitter would eliminate the parallax problem entirely except for the  offset of the optical path for VL which for a thin pellicle would be negligible.  You might need an IR low pass filter. But the cure for that is COTS.  I don't think it's needed, but I'll check Edmund tomorrow to see what it would cost.

What's the number of the "MSX patent"? I find it very hard to see how anyone could get an enforceable patent on aligning two images via edge detection.  Also, the FLIR patents on noise reduction I read were *really* easy for me to work around.  And I think the results would be far superior.  The only DSP that approaches seismic is synthetic aperture radar, and that is *much* easier because the velocity variations are much smaller. Reflection seismology has to deal with 2-3x velocity variations.  Most of the labor in processing a survey is building an accurate model of velocity variations.

There are all manner of 3D reconstructions from 2D images.  Reflection seismology does the "point source to point receiver" version.   It's conceptually simple, but the compute load is huge.  There is also a huge amount of fine print related to sampling, etc.  It's the acoustic equivalent of a hologram.

As for the HT-18, all I did was take it apart and see if I could get the VL and IR sensors close enough to be within the range of the adjustment. That worked, so all I need to do is deal with getting both in focus.  As all I want is a combined VL-IR microscope for SMD rework, I'm not likely to try to reverse engineer the sensor protocol.

If HTI perceives a small quantity hobbyist market for the sensor they might make them available. Given the skill level of this forum, they would get a *lot* of free PhD level consulting.  I spent my career in the oil industry working with PhDs from the best schools in the world, Stanford, Colorado School of Mines,  UT Austin etc It's a rare day that I don't encounter posts to EEVblog at that level.

I've queried several suspects and as expected, they had PhDs.  Generally in EE or CS.  They are pretty easy to spot if you've been through the process.  Their user ID is either their name or initials.  Anyone with "wizard", "guru", "tech"  or something similar is not in the same category.  Real PhDs are quite modest.  They have been hazed for 4-6 years by what they don't know.  To the point that the top ranks only make very narrow statements about everything.  Broad statements generally lead to someone in the audience raising a counter  example.  That tends to call all your results into question.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #127 on: January 08, 2019, 12:00:14 pm »
I think there are some points in your post that don't quite mesh with my assumptions. Maybe you could clear them up for me...

Quote
using image classification down to the pixels can be done in real time through Google today

Google is indeed very clever, but doesn't doing this require sending the data to Google who can then use their server farms to throw computational brute force at the problem? Similar to 'OK Google'? As it pertains to the HT-18/HT-A1  it's not very relevant, particularly since there is no way to get any data to Google in the first place.

Quote
Doing it computational with edge detection isn't possible as FLIR holds up the MSX Patent

How good is this in practice? I've never seen it for real, but it occurs to me that what you see visibly can be very different to what is visible in IR. For instance, a wall may be completely flat (edge-wise) to a visible camera but have hot pipes behind it which produce edges in IR. Similarly, my desk is very interesting visually (more edges than you could ever want) but in IR it is completely flat. How does MSX cope with these situations? Worse, perhaps, is a picture on a wall and hot pipes behind it a little offset - does the picture get moved over the pipes?

Quote
Phones these days even have an IR projector similar to Kinect that would make this simpler and work in the dark

Using reflected IR from a projector is very different to using self-generated IR. Isn't the projected IR a different wavelength to the stuff we view in a thermal camera (with the implication that it wants to be to prevent interference)?

I think that interesting as this stuff might be, it would be useful to focus on what we could reasonably suggest for the next, or subsequent, revision of the HTI firmware, and thread-drift might obscure some requested feature (and possible implementation solution) in the noise.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #128 on: January 08, 2019, 02:11:54 pm »
Amen!
 

Online Bill W

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #129 on: January 10, 2019, 10:20:26 am »

How good is this in practice? I've never seen it for real, but it occurs to me that what you see visibly can be very different to what is visible in IR. For instance, a wall may be completely flat (edge-wise) to a visible camera but have hot pipes behind it which produce edges in IR. Similarly, my desk is very interesting visually (more edges than you could ever want) but in IR it is completely flat. How does MSX cope with these situations? Worse, perhaps, is a picture on a wall and hot pipes behind it a little offset - does the picture get moved over the pipes?

MSX fun....
Point an MSX camera at a window with a tree outside.  Thermal image is of course a reflection of you, in the MSX combined image you grow many arms.  If it knew when to give up it might be more useful.

Bill

Offline rhb

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #130 on: January 10, 2019, 11:22:29 am »
My primary use case for the merged images is desoldering where it would be very helpful to have an image that showed where you still needed more heat with white being fixed at just above the melting point of solder.

My experience with the HT-18 is that in complete darkness there is enough variation in temperature and emissivity to produce a very detailed image of the room.  But I've encountered cases where you needed the VL image to understand the IR image.
 

Offline orientalsniper

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2019, 06:57:57 pm »
Hello, so is the HT-18 enough to do PCB/motherboards diagnostics? Such as detecting shorts in SMD componentes like 0201 capacitors?
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2019, 08:09:05 pm »
See the post earlier where there is a video showing similar:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/chinese-ht-18-220x160-8-hz-handheld-thermal-camera/msg2094331/#msg2094331

I can confirm that with the macro lens this is easily possible (and a pretty decent image too). Without that lens, it's not a good picture so rather more difficult. The good news is that the lens is about £12 shipped.

Mind, if the 0201 cap is a decoupler, a finger test might be a lot quicker :)
 

Offline orientalsniper

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #133 on: January 23, 2019, 06:37:18 am »
Thanks, so between the HT-18 and HT-A1, which one is better for PCB diagnostics?
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #134 on: January 23, 2019, 06:52:00 am »
I've not used the HT-18 so can't really say. But I do have a FLiR of that style and a major reason I got the A1 was because that form factor would be less intrusive when working on the bench. For mounting, there are tripod attachments that take a phone and are nearly suitable - the A1 is thicker than most phones plus it has a curved back so tends to pop out of that kind of  mount. A couple of elastic bands deals with that, though :)
 

Offline orientalsniper

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #135 on: January 23, 2019, 06:56:20 am »
Wait, so you don't have the HT-18 but you do have the HT-A1? How's that working out for you? Where did you buy it from? I know I can order the lenses with Aliexpress though.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #136 on: January 23, 2019, 07:32:02 am »
I got it off Amazon but they seem to be everywhere at the moment. Just keep looking until the price and likely customer support both meet your personal threshold :)

The A1 is kind of OK. Previous posts in this thread note how it could be better with a firmware update. The fixed focus is OK for quickly whipping it out and looking at something not too close, but the macro lens transforms it. I think it's a good bargain for the price and am reasonably happy with it.

So far as I know, the A1 and 18 are basically the same except for the form factor. Happy to be corrected on that if anyone knows, though.
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #137 on: January 23, 2019, 07:14:01 pm »
Can someone post a link to a suitable Macro lens for the HT-18?

McBryce.
 

Offline preamp.org

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #138 on: January 24, 2019, 06:44:44 am »
Hi there, another HT-A1 owner here.
I'm the one who spammed Zapro's comment section on his blog (http://www.blog.zapro.dk/?p=469) with my findings on hacking the software.

The most usable "features" I've been able to achieve thus far are:
   1) hide all the annotations/text/HUD elements with a press of a button for a clean thermal image
   2) remove the "Save image?" message box, so that each image is saved immediately on pressing the shutter button
   3) exchange the 5 color palettes with my own ones

Another thing I did was to re-arrange the displayed elements, which is not particularly useful, but makes my device somewhat unique  8).

Unfortunately those hacks are only possible to implement via UART, which has to be made accessible to the outside world by opening up the device.



Can someone post a link to a suitable Macro lens for the HT-18?

I didn't need a macro lens, since the original lens is actually manually focusable. I used a pair of tweezers (be careful not to slip and scratch the lens!) for half a turn counter-clockwise, which makes for a perfect macro setup.

I've attached some sample images showing some of the features, the obligate cat picture, and firing fireworks with the "Outdoor Alert" palette.
There's even a short video so you don't call me a fake  ;) : http://preamp.org/dinge/hta1_hud-hack.mp4

Regards,
Lasse
 
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Offline preamp.org

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #139 on: January 24, 2019, 07:22:26 am »
Mind, if the 0201 cap is a decoupler, a finger test might be a lot quicker :)

Now that I own a thermal imager, I prefer it over the finger test any day! Especially for inspecting a YSUS board in a plasma TV set running on 200V DC...
If you don't have a thermal imager handy and your finger tip is too precious for various reasons, you can also use your last supermarket receipt, as long as it was printed on thermal paper ;).

Regards,
Lasse
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #140 on: January 24, 2019, 08:59:26 am »
Quote
I'm the one who spammed Zapro's comment section

Great stuff you two are doing, there. I hope to emulate you and change the palettes to something more suitable soon. Thanks for working out how!

Quote
I didn't need a macro lens, since the original lens is actually manually focusable

The advantage of the macro lens is that you get a more zoomed-in image, but still have decent working distance. With the standard lens, you're  basically touching the object to get the same magnification. 'Course, depends on what your application is as to whether that's significant - I think just being able to focus would probably deal with the vast majority of circumstances (for me).

Quote
supermarket receipt, as long as it was printed on thermal paper

Good thinking!
 

Offline orientalsniper

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #141 on: January 24, 2019, 03:08:56 pm »
Thanks preamp.org for posting the photos, I think I'm going to get an HT-A1 now!

EDIT: nvm Care to share how did you flash the firmware?
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:22:41 pm by orientalsniper »
 

Offline David Leung

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #142 on: January 25, 2019, 08:08:33 pm »
Hello ,

Nice to saw all of your comments on our HT-A1 and HT-18 Thermal cameras ,we are the original manufacture of these two items(Dongguan Xintai Instrument Co.,Ltd) ,we also have the higher resolution HT-A2,HT-19 at 320*240 resolution for your choice.

Welcome all of you can inquiry from our instruments ,our alibaba website www.hytechcn.com.cn or www.xintest.com.cn , please kindly check and let me know if you have any interested items  :-+

my email: hongtai10@hytechcn.com.cn  :)

Regards,
David Leung
........................................................
Dongguan Xintai Instrument Co.,Ltd
Email:hongtai10@hytechcn.com.cn
Whatsapp&M:+8613532991484
Skype:w.hispeaker3
QQ:2753160572
Wechat:Leon3211
www.hytechcn.com.cn
 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #143 on: January 25, 2019, 09:25:18 pm »
Hello ,

Nice to saw all of your comments on our HT-A1 and HT-18 Thermal cameras ,we are the original manufacture of these two items(Dongguan Xintai Instrument Co.,Ltd) ,we also have the higher resolution HT-A2,HT-19 at 320*240 resolution for your choice.

Welcome all of you can inquiry from our instruments ,our alibaba website www.hytechcn.com.cn or www.xintest.com.cn , please kindly check and let me know if you have any interested items  :-+

my email: hongtai10@hytechcn.com.cn  :)

Regards,
David Leung
........................................................
Dongguan Xintai Instrument Co.,Ltd
Email:hongtai10@hytechcn.com.cn
Whatsapp&M:+8613532991484
Skype:w.hispeaker3
QQ:2753160572
Wechat:Leon3211
www.hytechcn.com.cn

Could you tell us what the situation is on Firmware updates? What are the latest versions? Where can we download them and what is the update process?

McBryce.
 
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Offline bialy100k

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #144 on: January 26, 2019, 12:39:26 pm »
I suppose most wanted software update for HT-18 will be fixed to temperature palette - selected as an option.

So picture will be NOT dynamically recalculated, but after selecting range particular fixed table of temperature-color will be used till we release it in menu. It can be done by long pressing SELECT button will be done "store action" for range palette and will appear on new menu list as new entry + auto option.
 

Offline Freeqwer

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #145 on: January 29, 2019, 07:56:13 am »
I extracted the firmware of HT-A1 v2.1.13
Video tutorial will upload on Saturday or Sunday on YouTube channel (Mr.Freeqwer).
I removed the EMMC and read the firmware from it.
Put the firmware in a different EMMC to check. Everything works.
 8)
YouTube channel-Freeqwer
 
The following users thanked this post: flolic, frenky, Thermal_Enthusiast_01

Offline flolic

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #146 on: January 29, 2019, 09:34:23 pm »
Received HT-A2 thermal camera few days ago, so far I am quite satisfied with the images it produces  :)
Firmware version on my unit is 2.1.3

 

Offline frenky

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #147 on: January 29, 2019, 10:15:13 pm »
It seems to have very low noise level and really sharp images. How much did you pay for it?
 

Online Rerouter

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #148 on: January 29, 2019, 10:29:35 pm »
If the visible, thermal and annotation could be saved as different image layers, I would likely buy a HT18, without that, its not worth the trouble just yet.
 

Offline flolic

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Re: Chinese HT-18 220x160 8 Hz Handheld Thermal Camera
« Reply #149 on: January 30, 2019, 12:23:06 am »
Yes, different image layers could be very useful.
Another option that I would like to have is the possibility to completely disable annotations from the menu.

 


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