Poll

Has the hackabiliy of the E4 made you buy one :  

Yes, I was already looking at the competition at a similar price, but the hack swung it to E4
255 (27%)
Yes, I'd not considered buying a TIC before, but 320x240 resolution at this price justifies it (as either tool or toy!)
436 (46.1%)
Yes, I was going to buy an E5/6/8 class of unit but will now get the E4
46 (4.9%)
No, but am looking out for a cheap i3 to hack
47 (5%)
Not yet, but probably will if now that a closed-box hack becomes is possible
162 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 780

Author Topic: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown  (Read 2960393 times)

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Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5250 on: July 13, 2014, 10:48:42 pm »
Thanks for the info. The hot spot was likely either contamination of the microbolometer window or a calibration issue. Either way, it would be unlikely to need replacement parts  :) Good news.

Aurora
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Offline micio

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5251 on: July 15, 2014, 03:21:39 pm »
Sorry to post again but my question got buried, I was wondering if there was an easy step to remove the temperature scale and other elements over the picture so that it's just a thermal image. (i was only able to remove the logo)

Thanks!
 

Offline larky

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5252 on: July 16, 2014, 06:37:46 am »
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5253 on: July 16, 2014, 09:07:51 am »
Thanks for the info. The hot spot was likely either contamination of the microbolometer window or a calibration issue. Either way, it would be unlikely to need replacement parts  :) Good news.

Aurora

I've done a few repairs on Flirs now for a local firm that hires them out, luckily all the problems have been very basic so far. The most common is dust on the sensor causing what looks like hotspots/coldspots.  I just cleaned the sensor using a standard camera sensor cleaning kit, it's a delicate but not overly difficult tear down if you follow Mikes original video. Likewise instructions for the cleaning process for a camera sensor can be found online and cleaning kits are cheap.
 

Offline burlbark

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5254 on: July 16, 2014, 07:35:06 pm »
Try daves software;
http://test.daves.cz/wrapper/wrapper.zip

 Thanks for linking that.... Now how does a person use it.... :-//  I am not stupid just not computer literate.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5255 on: July 16, 2014, 08:24:53 pm »
Regarding dust contamination of TICs, I have an elderly Agema 880 and that has a fully enclosed dustproof optical block. Now my later PM series FLIR cameras incorporate no such dust proofing measures. The camera case is gasketed but there is a large rear door that is opened to access the battery and memory card. Once open, the door gives dust access to the internals including the optical block. Considering the original cost of over $50,000, and the intended industrial use, I was amazed that the optical block was not enclosed in a protective casing such as you would find in a conventional camcorder. Most odd. I attach a picture of the PM570 optical block to show what I mean. No covers have been removed for the picture. Opposite the optical block there is just the main CPU PCB.

Dust contamination of the microbolometer is a PITA. It would be interesting to know where the Ex series dust ingress point is located. It is also interesting to note that some new E4's arrive with a dust problem which rather suggests poor assembly hygiene.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 08:39:20 pm by Aurora »
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5256 on: July 17, 2014, 10:20:14 pm »
Several ebay listings for upgraded E4s have disappeared. There are no current listings.
One listed as "upgradeable", from a seller who has previously sold at least 20 upgraded units includes this :
Quote
NOTE: Due to eBay regulations I cannot sell a pre-modified camera so I am just selling a basic E4 with 80x60 resolution. HOWEVER, I WILL HELP YOU AS MUCH AS I CAN TO APPLY THE HACK ON THESE OLDER FIRMWARE UNITS. CONTACT ME BEFORE PURCHASING AND I CAN HELP YOU MAKE SURE YOU CAN DO APPLY THE HACK. My phone number is below or you can message me through eBay.
My guess is Flir pressured ebay based on warranty issues.
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Offline ixfd64

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5257 on: July 17, 2014, 11:12:39 pm »
How do you know they were removed, and not sold? Hacked E4's are still pretty high in demand.

Offline Armen

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5258 on: July 17, 2014, 11:19:23 pm »
Hello to all.
If anybody can help me to find the solution.
I am doing research on the energy balance of the earth. I started using FLIR A305sc to determine the temperature of the surface of plant at long range.

About Planck R canstant.
With ExiftoolGUI I get:

Planck R1                       : 16314.8828125
Planck B                        : 1423.59997558594
Planck F                        : 1
Planck O                        : -6199
Planck R2                       : 0.0109910489991307
Peack of spactral range 10.11 mkm

For have a proof, I calculated:
B = h*c/(k*?)=(6.626068*10^-34*2.9979*10^8)/(1.38066*10^-23*10.11*10^-6) = 1423 (Planck B)
R=R1/R2=1.484*10^6, so...
R = 2*h*c^2/?^5=(2* 6.626068*10^-34*(2.9979*10^8)^2)/(10.11*10^-6)^5 = 1.128*10^9 ???? why not 1.484*10^6

And another question.
If spectral range is a constant (10.11 micromètre) then Wien law of displacement (lambda=2898/T) is not provided in FLIR???

Thank you in advance for yours reply.
 

Offline tomas123

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5259 on: July 18, 2014, 07:38:50 am »
I think, you know my posts

http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.60.html
and summary
http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg23944.html#msg23944

The Flir method of calculation the temperature from raw values is explained in this book:
http://books.google.de/books?id=6H3HyacPxnMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false

sample: the part of air influence
http://books.google.de/books?id=6H3HyacPxnMC&pg=PA171&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false


for another readers

(1) as attachments some pages from flir documents
(2) with Atmosphere.xls you can check the calculation with csv-values from Flir Tools
    see here for more informations http://u88.n24.queensu.ca/exiftool/forum/index.php/topic,4898.msg27546.html#msg27546
   download the special sample Flir radiometric jpg with 4x4=16 Pixel and RAW values from 10000 to 25000 (step 1000)
   

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5260 on: July 18, 2014, 07:39:38 am »
How do you know they were removed, and not sold? Hacked E4's are still pretty high in demand.
I bookmarked several listings a while ago  - some were "ended by the seller" but some have been actively removed and the page no longer exists- the only way I know for this to happen is if Ebay remove it. If it sold or ended by the seller, the listing would still be there.

 The text on the "Upgradeable" listing shows Ebay have told the seller, probably after taking the listing down.

I just noticed That listing has been ended by the seller, though that could have been an off-ebay sale.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:41:10 am by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline Armen

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5261 on: July 18, 2014, 08:38:05 am »
Again thank you Tomas.

The book is what I really needed for a detailed study.

I just have to go for it in the library of about 100 kilometers. :)
 

Offline wer4

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5262 on: July 18, 2014, 05:07:32 pm »
How do you know they were removed, and not sold? Hacked E4's are still pretty high in demand.
I bookmarked several listings a while ago  - some were "ended by the seller" but some have been actively removed and the page no longer exists- the only way I know for this to happen is if Ebay remove it. If it sold or ended by the seller, the listing would still be there.

 The text on the "Upgradeable" listing shows Ebay have told the seller, probably after taking the listing down.

I just noticed That listing has been ended by the seller, though that could have been an off-ebay sale.
Flir had been requesting these auctions to be taken down, the message we received from eBay was
Quote
Hello,
After reviewing your eBay account, we've taken the following action:
- Violating listings have been removed. A list of items that were removed can be viewed at the bottom of this message.
- We have credited any associated fees to your account.

Your listing was removed after the rights owner notified us that your item infringes on their intellectual property rights.

We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information on why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

For more information on our VeRO program, go to:
http://pages.ebay.com/vero/infoforusers.html 



Please be sure your current and future listings follow these guidelines, keeping in mind that additional violations could result in the suspension of your account.

The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, FLIR Systems Inc, notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law.
also
Quote
Hello,
After reviewing your eBay account, we've taken the following action:
- Violating listings have been removed. A list of items that were removed can be viewed at the bottom of this message.
- We have credited any associated fees to your account.

Your listing was removed after the rights owner notified us that your item infringes on their intellectual property rights.

We urge you to contact the rights owner directly for more information on why they requested the removal of your listing and whether you can relist the item.

For more information on our VeRO program, go to:
http://pages.ebay.com/vero/infoforusers.html 



Please be sure your current and future listings follow these guidelines, keeping in mind that additional violations could result in the suspension of your account.

The rights owner or an agent authorized to act on behalf of the rights owner, FLIR Systems Inc, notified eBay that this listing violates intellectual property rights. When eBay receives a report of this type of violation, we remove the listing to comply with the law.



We encourage you to contact FLIR Systems Inc directly if you have any questions.

You can send an email to:
allen.frechette@flir.com

For more information on how eBay protects Intellectual Property, or for additional information if you believe that your listing has been removed as a result of an error or misidentification, please visit the following Help page:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/programs-vero-ov.html

If you have additional questions, contact our policy experts. Get started by clicking the link below:
http://ocsnext.ebay.com/ocs/cusr?query=1337&domain=email1414

Here are the listings that were removed:
AUCTION INFO


We appreciate your cooperation.
Thanks,

eBay

Please don't reply to this message. It was sent from an address that doesn't accept incoming email.
Looks like Allen Frechette who is the VP of Marketing was the one that was reporting these listings. He sent an email last night on the "UPGRADEABLE" camera saying
Quote
Hello Fellow Ebayer,

I am reaching out to you from FLIR Systems Corporate offices in Portland OR. I work with the legal department and before I submit another Vero complaint on this I though I would give you the courtesy of an separate email.  I am not sure if Ebay led you to believe that you could still advertise the super popular E4 hack this way, but it's still a violation according to our lawyers.  I suggest you take it down but that's your call.   I am happy to introduce you to our corporate staff legal team and you can ask them questions about this directly.  Just give me a call and I can put you in touch with them.   I will pursue the Vero process tomorrow.   
Thanks,

Allen
This was his username http://www.ebay.com/usr/flir_vrt
Figured it wasn't worth the hassle.
 

Offline micio

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5263 on: July 18, 2014, 05:45:44 pm »
Try daves software;
http://test.daves.cz/wrapper/wrapper.zip

Thank you Larky, I've tried that before and when I click on "Go" or the editor button in the picture I get the " convert.exe is not a valid win32 application"
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5264 on: July 18, 2014, 05:54:26 pm »

Looks like Allen Frechette who is the VP of Marketing was the one that was reporting these listings. He sent an email last night on the "UPGRADEABLE" camera saying
Quote
Hello Fellow Ebayer,

I am reaching out to you from FLIR Systems Corporate offices in Portland OR. I work with the legal department and before I submit another Vero complaint on this I though I would give you the courtesy of an separate email.  I am not sure if Ebay led you to believe that you could still advertise the super popular E4 hack this way, but it's still a violation according to our lawyers.  I suggest you take it down but that's your call.   I am happy to introduce you to our corporate staff legal team and you can ask them questions about this directly.  Just give me a call and I can put you in touch with them.   I will pursue the Vero process tomorrow.   
Thanks,

Allen
It would be interesting to ask them how exactly they believe their rights are being violated
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5265 on: July 18, 2014, 06:15:32 pm »
It would be interesting to ask them how exactly they believe their rights are being violated

The only thing I can think of is telling people about the hack, but seeing him write "the super popular E4 hack" that doesn't make much sense.
Oh well, lawyers...
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline ixfd64

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5266 on: July 18, 2014, 06:18:10 pm »
It's possible that he personally likes the hack but has to do what FLIR tells him to.

Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5267 on: July 18, 2014, 06:45:34 pm »
So FLIR are confirmed as taking action against the hack.

I was not impressed with the wording of the FLIR message.....very amateur. "Super popular" for heavens sake  :palm:

The question is.....how much further will they be able to take this and against who.

I note the message made clear mention of the FLIR legal department  ::) Lawyers Lawyers Lawyers. It a sure way to gain someone's attention but I am not clear on the true legal situation of the more recent hack methods. I know that the generation 1 'upgrade' was not in any way illegal for a user to install as I spoke to others in the industry who were aware of the hack and its implications. Their view was that FLIR were in a very difficult position and that if the frame rate was increased above 9fps by users, the brown stuff would really hit the fan for FLIR and ruin their day ! Even the fact that Mike discovered a high frame rate digital image stream emanating from the core was considered seriously embarrassing for FLIR.

Selling hacked goods will always be a grey area depending upon the position taken, OEM or seller. I am not a lawyer so have no knowledge of the loopholes or laws that may be invoked by such action.

I am assuming that the ebay auctions are the sole attack vector against the hack but we must consider whether Dave will receive a similar threat in due course regarding the content of this thread.

I honestly do not see FLIR chasing down individual users, but I can see them pursuing persons who they believe are a threat to their latest countermeasure if such people can be identified.

Watch this space.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 06:53:11 pm by Aurora »
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Offline OrBy

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5268 on: July 18, 2014, 07:26:35 pm »
I am really surprised they have even bothered. They sold a camera to some one, it's now that persons property, the person modified it, and is now selling it. I don't see how any IP was violated - it's not like they copied the camera hardware or software and are selling clones or have taken the software from it and porting it to other vendors units. I don't get how FLIR could make this case in court and not get laughed out the door - but I am not a lawyer type so....

The best reaction from FLIR's perspective I think would of been to add more software features and continue to lock down the firmware on newly shipped units while also voiding warranty and/or support for a modified unit.

To go on record - I think ebay sale of hacked units is a little sleezy. Unless the seller is going to take the place of FLIR for both support and warranty it's unfair to make the buyer think that FLIR is going to turn a blind eye if something goes wrong. The ads that I have seen seem to gingerly dance around that issue. But that's more of a buyer beware thing.

Retaliation like this is likely only going to bring both bad PR and like retaliation witch could result in even deeper hacks taking place. (There are still things that could be unlocked like the FPS, or adding WiFi/BT)

I wonder if some insulated higher up finally caught wind of this and swiftly did a knee jerk reaction into their own windpipe as they tend to do and the lower yes men got their engines all fired up...
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 07:29:09 pm by OrBy »
 

Offline Iphone_hack

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5269 on: July 18, 2014, 07:58:03 pm »
Like I said in the pass, flir won't be able to stop people to hack.
Again biggest company of the world apple still can't stop the jailbreak.
Jailbreak is a hack for sure

Same as E4 hack, only modifying the software.
Most of my iphone, iPad and Apple TV are jailbroken.
Of course personal use.
But after I update to newer model, I still sold my used unit with the jailbreak.
I haven't seen apple trying to sue everyone selling a jailbreak device.
Remember apple voids the warranty if you jailbreak

In my opinion, flir is trying to stop people to make money from the hack.
Like buying from flir for $1000 and selling it for $1500-1700, example eBay
But flir should stop spending the money on stupid lawyers and hire better software engineer or just change the hardware, then we won't be talking about this topic.

Also again, flir is killing its own E4 sales by stopping the hack
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5270 on: July 18, 2014, 08:02:45 pm »
Regarding warranty.....its an interesting situation.

PC's are designed to have hardware added and to have different software loaded. If you modify the hardware you void your warranty. If you suffer a physical failure that is not caused by a hardware or firmware settings you do not void your warranty.

Now the E4 situation.....

If FLIR stated that your warranty was void, they would surely need to provide evidence of what the hack did to cause such a failure. Overclocking a PC can cause damage but we are not overclocking etc. the E4 platform or stressing it. The hack is not a hardware modification. It is just a firmware configuration change. Now if the camera stopped working due to a software corruption that is a different scenario, and I can see FLIR having a case to state that the user caused the issue through an attempt to hack the software/firmware.

Aurora
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5271 on: July 18, 2014, 08:18:25 pm »
S
I note the message made clear mention of the FLIR legal department  ::) Lawyers Lawyers Lawyers. It a sure way to gain someone's attention but I am not clear on the true legal situation of the more recent hack methods.
As they have offered to "introduce" the seller to the legal dept, I really think the question should at least be asked -  Either they can give a clear answer, or something vague that would show that they know they have little or no legal basis on which to stop sales of hacked units and are simply resorting to threats and FUD. A legal opinion on this would also potentially have bearing on hacks of other equipment like scopes. Flir are doubtless paying these legal people a ton of money - let's get them work for it!
AFAIK it doesn't take much to get Ebay to take listings down as they aren't going to risk action against them versus a few lost sales.
As regards warranty, this is basically  a contract between the buyer and seller, and conditional on the terms of that contract, and that could specifically exclude support for hacked units (has anyone actually looked at a recent version of their terms to see if anything is mentioned that may have bearing on this?).
In some countries, there are some mandatory requirements for warranties that may preclude them limiting liability, however in some cases this may only apply to consumer sales - I'd imagine Flir would argue that it is a professional piece of equipment aimed at business sales.
 
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:20:15 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5272 on: July 18, 2014, 08:30:11 pm »
Post removed as it contained unconfirmed information that may have been incorrect.
Aurora
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:35:14 pm by Aurora »
Cogito, ergo sum
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5273 on: July 18, 2014, 08:32:12 pm »
I wonder if some insulated higher up finally caught wind of this and swiftly did a knee jerk reaction into their own windpipe as they tend to do and the lower yes men got their engines all fired up...
My impression is that the "highest up" (Hi Andy, if you're watching!) is far from "insulated" and very much in touch with what's ahppening around their prodicts- he includes an email that gets to him on a "welcome" sheet in every box - inbetween my review & teardown vids we exchanged a few emails, and I know for a fact he's watched my FireFlir teardown video!

My best guess is that they want to at least be seen to be doing "something" to maintain some credibility to shareholders etc. without doing anything heavy-handed that would bring negative publicity or invoke a Striesand effect.

Howeverl the second non-paid google result for Flir E4 is the hackaday "Manufacturer-crippled " article - I can't see any amount of SEO getting that one to go away any time soon!

Googling Flir related stuff often turns up more hits about financial & business stuff than anything technical, especially in news related searches.
 


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Offline Fraser

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Re: Flir E4 Thermal imaging camera teardown
« Reply #5274 on: July 18, 2014, 08:40:06 pm »
Just for interest, I include a link to Bullard who make thermal cameras for fire fighting. They are currently selling a 160x120 camera that may be upgraded to 320x240 (for a fee) at a later date by the user  ;)

The E4 is little different but FLIR have chosen to not offer a resolution upgrade path to users.

http://www.bullard.com/europe/en/products/thermal_imaging/fire_service/EclipseLD/

There is a RUMOUR that the camera contains a FLIR core but I could not confirm this.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:41:45 pm by Aurora »
Cogito, ergo sum
 


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