Author Topic: Flir Exx battery pack - what battery inside the pack? (and can it be replaced?)  (Read 1047 times)

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Offline calel

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we know that for the Ex series the battery pack casing can be opened & the (ICR 18650) battery within replaced with relative ease (to avoid buying a new pack)

but is it the same for the E30/40/50/60? I couldn't find the info (and the reviewers were useless none of them even bothered to open the battery pack itself)
and if so what battery's used? is it a 18650 too?
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 02:08:33 am by calel »
 

Online Fraser

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18650 Qty 2.

Yes they can be replaced if you open the casing.
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Offline calel

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ok nvm I finally found another topic https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/an-alternative-to-buying-new-replacement-battery-for-e30e40e50e60/


problem is with then Exx packs it looks more complicated (than with then Ex packs) cause with the Exx those #$%$ soldered a protection circuit on the batteries so it has to be desoldered (or cant it be just torn off?) and despite the the tutorial I'm not sure what he did after that - he basically glued the protection circuit on the new batteries?  ??? so wouldn't it have to be some kinda special conductive glue or something?
the whole process looks risky
 

Offline Bill W

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problem is with then Exx packs it looks more complicated (than with then Ex packs) cause with the Exx those #$%$ soldered a protection circuit on the batteries so it has to be desoldered (or cant it be just torn off?) and despite the the tutorial I'm not sure what he did after that -

No, a welded pack with the tags soldered to a protection PCB is the correct method of assembly.
FLIR have had the packs made with the right length tags to reach the protection PCB.
What the link shows is putting a new welded pack into the FLIR casing and making contact using spring action to a new bottom contact.  The contact and PCB is held in with the glue.

Why keep the protection PCB - well it stops the pack exploding if things go wrong (Sony laptops, iPhones, hoverboards.....).
Some cheap chargers rely on the protection PCB rather than meet a good spec.
Some cheap batteries rely on having a very well behaved charger.

Bill



Offline calel

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No, a welded pack with the tags soldered to a protection PCB is the correct method of assembly.
but they didn't do that for the Ex series did they?  like the E4 there's no circuitry in the battery pack AFAIK so once the 18650 battery's removed all that's left of the pack is a plastic casing & some metal contacts right?
 

Online Fraser

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E4 battery including protection board !
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Offline calel

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ok my bad

is the protection board soldered to the battery for the E4 too?  :(
 

Online Fraser

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Yes, Connection strips soldered to protection PCB and Spot welded at battery ends.
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Offline calel

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man that sucks

there was this vid on the tube some rusky was implying you can just remove the battery easy peasy (as long as you dont start cutting from the top) :

youtube.com/watch?v=_Nwq_LYac3U

just another one of them making useless vids I guess  >:(
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 07:54:00 pm by calel »
 

Offline Bill W

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If you buy a replacement pack (any pack the right format) rather than just bare cells it will come with welded strips to its' PCB. 

As you'll then have two of a few bits like the protection PCB, you can choose the most suitable location to link up.

Say this might work as parts for the E40 battery ?
https://cpc.farnell.com/ansmann/2447-3033/battery-pack-li-ion-1s2p-3-7v/dp/BT06040

Offline calel

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If you buy a replacement pack (any pack the right format) rather than just bare cells it will come with welded strips to its' PCB. 

As you'll then have two of a few bits like the protection PCB, you can choose the most suitable location to link up.

Say this might work as parts for the E40 battery ?
https://cpc.farnell.com/ansmann/2447-3033/battery-pack-li-ion-1s2p-3-7v/dp/BT06040
looks interesting - so basically if i buy this I can ditch the E4 pack's protection board when I crack open the pack?




but what about that cable thing sticking out of those 2 batteries could I just cut it off? the batteries inside the E4 pack have no cables
 

Offline Bill W

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If you buy a replacement pack (any pack the right format) rather than just bare cells it will come with welded strips to its' PCB. 

As you'll then have two of a few bits like the protection PCB, you can choose the most suitable location to link up.

Say this might work as parts for the E40 battery ?
https://cpc.farnell.com/ansmann/2447-3033/battery-pack-li-ion-1s2p-3-7v/dp/BT06040
looks interesting - so basically if i buy this I can ditch the E4 pack's protection board when I crack open the pack?

but what about that cable thing sticking out of those 2 batteries could I just cut it off? the batteries inside the E4 pack have no cables

The E4 is not that format - this is for the E40 etc with two cells in parallel.
You would carefully remove the green wrap, decide whether to use the protection board in the Ansmann pack OR the FLIR one, and join up as needed.

The most likely IMO would be keeping the FLIR protection PCB (it fits and connects to the pack contacts) and making a solder join between the Ansmann strips and the FLIR strips.
You then dispose of the pack wrap and Ansmann protection.

However once it is all open on the bench you might see a better way.



Offline calel

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The most likely IMO would be keeping the FLIR protection PCB (it fits and connects to the pack contacts) and making a solder join between the Ansmann strips and the FLIR strips.
You then dispose of the pack wrap and Ansmann protection.
that's what I intended except for the soldering part. I'm not comfortable with soldering (or desoldering)

why does the pcb have to be soldered to the batteries?  ??? I mean when I put new batteries in my flashlight i dont solder them to the flashlight's metal contact why not have something similer for the E4 or E30? it be way simpler (worse case scenario contact fails & the camera goes off, big deal)
 

Offline Bill W

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why does the pcb have to be soldered to the batteries?  ??? I mean when I put new batteries in my flashlight i dont solder them to the flashlight's metal contact why not have something similer for the E4 or E30? it be way simpler (worse case scenario contact fails & the camera goes off, big deal)

Soldering is unavoidable.

Here's 4 reasons for the design:
Going off would be unacceptable on a professional product, especially for FLIR as a cold start on their designs is 30-45 seconds.
The springs you need would make the battery case bigger.
Anything that suggests the user might be allowed to change a lithium rechargeable battery is a massive complication to product compliance.  Your flashlight uses LR6 alkalines I guess ?
Springs cost more than 'nothing', especially if you want them to last.

Bill

Offline calel

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Soldering is unavoidable.

Here's 4 reasons for the design:
Going off would be unacceptable on a professional product, especially for FLIR as a cold start on their designs is 30-45 seconds.
The springs you need would make the battery case bigger.
Anything that suggests the user might be allowed to change a lithium rechargeable battery is a massive complication to product compliance.  Your flashlight uses LR6 alkalines I guess ?
Springs cost more than 'nothing', especially if you want them to last.

Bill
in other words no practical reason (for us)

so is there any way I could easily modify the case so that the battery's swapable? even without a spring just a small contact like this one
 

Offline Bill W

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Even those contacts will add 3mm each end, so very unlikely that the casing would fit.

Offline calel

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bummer

then maybe I can just insert the new batteries without soldering them - I mean if it's designed to fit that tightly then contact shouldn't be a problem


a question though if I ditch the original PCB & use the one that comes with the new batteries how do I know that new PCB will be "compatible" with the cam? knowing Flir they probably designed their cam so that only the PCB from their own battery packs works
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 10:28:04 pm by calel »
 

Offline Bill W

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Idon't think anyone has deconstructed the E40 / etc pack to that level.  It is a 4 contact pack not a 3 contact like the E4.

The 4th contact could be anything from simply separating the thermistor up to some evil incompatibility function that you fear.
That, and the mechanical side, would make me favour keeping the FLIR PCB.

Offline calel

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but has anyone even replaced the bare batteries themselves in an Exx? (with or without soldering, and whilst keeping the original PCB)

is it even feasible? and is it as "easy" as with the Ex series?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 05:02:53 pm by calel »
 

Online Fraser

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Calel,

It seems you have great concerns regarding Buying a used Exx series camera. It may therefore be best for you if you stick to buying new kit and leave the used kit to those of us happy to cope with any challenges we meet along the way  ;)
Cogito, ergo sum
 

Offline calel

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so that means no? 

Calel,

It seems you have great concerns regarding Buying a used Exx series camera. It may therefore be best for you if you stick to buying new kit and leave the used kit to those of us happy to cope with any challenges we meet along the way  ;)
problem is Flir dont sell new Exx batteries no more   ???  (they sell Ex packs but not Exx packs)
 
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Online Fraser

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I wanted to see if an alternative battery could be made to fit the Exx series so I bought some nicely priced FLIR 'K' series batteries and experimented with them. They are electrically the same as the Exx series batteries but the casing differs. Did I give up at that first hurdle ? Heck no, I got out my hack saw and removed the excess plastic  :-DD Well to be honest I already knew that the battery casings were completely different when I bought the batteries but exactly how they differed was not known to me. It turns out that the excess plastic at the bottom of the battery is easily removed but the battery casing is also wider at the bottom than the top ! Have I given up ? Heck no.... I will either cut away the lower casing where its width is too great and fit a 3D printed replacement lower section, or remove the offending lower wider section and use heat shrink tubing to secure the cells in place.

For me, part of the fun is the challenges you meet when working on kit and overcoming those challenges. I know that is not true for everyone though. For those not able, or willing, to experiment, it is best to not place yourself in a position where you are faced with a challenge  ;) 

The Exx battery has to be one of the simplest packs to re-cell that I have come across. It is truly a walk in the park compared to those found in modern laptops with horrible pin protected battery management IC's etc. The cells are connected to a very standard battery protection PCB and 3 connections are used.... +V, 0V and Temperature (see pictures)

I can understand Calel being cautious regarding buying equipment for which batteries may be expensive or hard to re-cell, and I consider the same issue when buying some specialist equipment, but if such a challenge is too much for a person, then they need to stick to new kit and buy new battery packs, at whatever cost that is. I just paid £89 to Apple to exchange my Wife's iPad for a brand new one under their "battery replacement" policy. £89 for a brand new iPad is a good deal and far better than me spending time dismantling an iPad Air to fit a 3rd party, unknown quality, battery pack. Sometimes buying from an OEM does make sense.

I do believe that a little knowledge can be dangerous and messing around with high energy cells like Lithium Ion is an area where knowledge is important. Expecting a battery manufacturer to use battery contacts in place of the well proven welded tabs is expecting too much in my opinion. Those battery packs are not intended to be rebuilt after all ! When messing around rebuilding a battery pack, especially a Lithium Ion type, with more than one cell, great care is needed to ensure imbalance or shorts do not occur. Get it wrong and 'bad things' can happen.

As I said, I can understand concern regarding battery replacement in the Exx, but if unsure, walk away. No one on the forum can guarantee the success of a cell replacement when the person doing the task is not them. Yes, I find such tasks easy, but that does not mean others feel the same about the task.

If the fear is that a particular battery will become unsupported and obsolete, I am still rebuilding battery packs for the FLIR PM series that went obsolete in the last decade ! No problem and there will always be people like me who are willing to rebuild battery packs in a safe manner.  The hardest part is getting inside the battery pack casing without causing serious damage to it ! Note though that modern battery management IC's used in laptops etc are making battery re-celling a total nightmare as OEM's do not want batteries to be rebuilt. The laugh is that I can likely rebuild a Lithium Ion battery pack from a 2010 camera easier that one from 2020 !

Fraser
Cogito, ergo sum
 


Online Fraser

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For a real example of a potential nightmare battery situation.....

I am currently working on a very nice Toshiba Rugged Printer series that use a bespoke battery pack that is ugly expensive :(

The battery is pretty typical of what is to be expected in modern portable equipment and it contains battery protection plus battery management and it is the battery management that can render a battery pack not re-buildable as the management chip cannot be reset without the IC manufacturers programming software and host equipment manufacturers OEM PIN  number to unlock the iC !

The printer in the attached images costs over $1000 but if the battery ever goes obsolete and unobtainable, the printer will become effectively scrap once it battery fails. Sometimes a third party will make clone batteries but this is often only for products with very high sales figures and market share.

Fraser
« Last Edit: September 30, 2020, 05:52:19 pm by Fraser »
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Offline calel

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