Author Topic: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS  (Read 2895 times)

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Offline Ultrapurple

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2019, 11:36:15 am »

Isn't this a similar technique to that used in 3D scanners to build up a point cloud?

I'm afraid I don't have any experience on that subject but there are quite a number of techniques for 3D scanning so it's possible one method includes a related approach. Anyone better-informed know more?
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Offline Vipitis

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2019, 08:34:34 pm »
Shifting the sensor by half a pixel (or 1.5, etc...) can be done. It is a feature of some stills cameras. Hasslebladfor example shifts their sensor in two axis and takes 6 captures (because of bayer matrix). Sony offers a similar feature in their high end cameras called Pixel shift. These only work when you put your camera onto a solid tripod. This is pretty much superresolution done for you by the sensor stabilizing system. I don't think sensor stabilization is common in thermal cameras, because the pixels are much larger and the resolution is lower, so small shakes don't get noticed that much.

For 3D models photogrammetry is used. I am using the freeware VisualSFM, but there are two main software options for aerial photogrammetry, theses take advantage of the geotagging to reduce the matching needed. In theory you just have to take more images(fly slower, higher framerate) to get more data points, or get a narrower FoV(change lens or fly lower), but this does not work out in practise. The 3D point cloud that is generated has far less points than pixels you record, and a good amount of overlay is needed to get a good reconstruction. The next step is to connect those 3D points into a 3D model by connecting them with triangles into a polygon, now you go back into your captured images and project them back at the model to texture it. Having a better point cloud only helps you to get more detail, not more resolution really. This texture mapping probably ignores the small overlaps and does not use it for superresolution, it might be something that has been looked into - but I haven't read about it.

It's a idea I head in the last year that I wrote down and collected resources on. So if anyone knows more - let me know.

 

Offline Max Planck

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2019, 07:19:19 pm »
 Hyper_Spectral,
you could also have a look at Infratec Variocam modules or SCD's modules.

Max
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2019, 02:37:27 pm »
So I came across an Israeli company who produced 1024x768 cores way back in 2013. Someone must be familiar?

http://www.scd.co.il/Bird-XGA-17
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2019, 02:42:29 pm »
Hyper Spectral,

I know of BIRD and it’s products. They produce cores for military applications. Israeli Defence contractors are very challenging to work with and you have to be friends with MOSSAD when exporting the more sensitive technology. Get it wrong with a sensitive Israeli product and you can honestly expect a visit from MOSSAD representatives for a chat.

The Israelis are a very capable technology producer. RICOR Stirling Coolers we’re chosen to fly on NASA missions and probes due to their quality.

Fraser
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 02:45:24 pm by Fraser »
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2019, 04:33:50 pm »
Typical Israel stuff, I'll leave it there. I figured they wouldn't mind exporting to the US but eh you never know
 

Offline Max Planck

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2019, 06:06:23 pm »
I was thinking more about:
https://scdusa-ir.com/

which is their direct US representative or
https://www.infratec-infrared.com/downloads/en/thermography/flyer/security/infratec-variocam-hd-head-security-h-en-mail.pdf

from Infratec, a 1024 × 768 pixels module giving 2,048 × 1,536 resolution with an opto-mechanical MicroScan.

By the way, on their web pages for different modules, SCD often publishes articles describing rather in depth the design and features of their products. Interesting reading. 

Max
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 06:08:36 pm by Max Planck »
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2019, 06:43:54 pm »
Thank you Max, I had inquired with them about 3 weeks ago and they plainly said no, we do not produce for that type of application and we do not intend to.

So it's a matter of a 3rd party picking up and integrating that core.
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2019, 12:33:24 pm »
I just emailed the USA portion of the company in hopes of them having more information for the US market. The email listed is undeliverable so I used their contact us form. I'll report back if I hear anything more. The only core that fits requirements is the Bird XGA 1024x768. The other cores are far too large unless we go up in sUAS size and carry a single payload.
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2019, 05:01:40 pm »
as the BAE/Fairclip 1920x1200 sensor was mentioned here - BAE is integrating it into tanks: https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/product/360-multifunction-vehicle-protection-sensor

but this also means there have finished to work on the lenses and have at least two options. That was part of the Sierra Olympic holdback for pushing the core.
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2019, 03:48:39 pm »
Very interesting, and a plausible explanation. I wonder if there's any increased complexity in lens design for higher resolution microbolometers  :-//
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2019, 05:15:18 pm »
Definitely there is. As the sensor area gets larger, lenses get larger. That is a mail selling point behind d new technologies that use 12 or 10micro pixels.
Most lenses use Germanium and that has a rather high refractive index, which is again countered by the long and broad wavelengths. You get the chromatic abboration effect, but because the sensor is broad monochrome - you just get blurring instead of color splitting near he edges.
But in the past, early microbolometer have been larger in area, and needed huge lenses. Just google for uncooled thermal lenses and you can find old military equip on eBay that uses huge elements.
Germanium is heavy, and making a larger sensor will require lager and more heavy optics, that might be most important for airborne application, but gets a concern for long range handheld equip as well.
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2019, 05:59:03 pm »
The pixel pitch of such microbolometers is also decreasing, but maybe not at the rate needed to use a smaller lens already developed.

Hopefully some more information is released soon. BAE certainly knows of someone integrating it for UAS, but that's literally all we know. I'll try to pull some strings through my colleagues but I doubt I'll get far.
 

Offline Vipitis

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2019, 11:27:16 pm »
Thermal Expert now lists prices for their 1st and 2nd gen cores on the European website. https://www.thermalexpert.eu/deutsch/produkt%C3%BCbersicht/w%C3%A4rmebild-einbaumodule-thermal-cores/ There is also a XGA variant but it is missing the price. There is no English translation yet.
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #39 on: May 13, 2019, 03:00:31 pm »
Thermal Expert now lists prices for their 1st and 2nd gen cores on the European website. https://www.thermalexpert.eu/deutsch/produkt%C3%BCbersicht/w%C3%A4rmebild-einbaumodule-thermal-cores/ There is also a XGA variant but it is missing the price. There is no English translation yet.

Good catch! Based on their history, I'm a bit worried about noise. Hopefully its a sign that more information will be released soon
 

Offline bugi

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2019, 05:50:01 pm »
Thermal Expert now lists prices for their 1st and 2nd gen cores on the European website. https://www.thermalexpert.eu/deutsch/produkt%C3%BCbersicht/w%C3%A4rmebild-einbaumodule-thermal-cores/ There is also a XGA variant but it is missing the price. There is no English translation yet.
Also, "Delivery only to tradesmen, industry, trade or research institutions."
 

Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2019, 06:13:00 pm »
Thermal Expert now lists prices for their 1st and 2nd gen cores on the European website. https://www.thermalexpert.eu/deutsch/produkt%C3%BCbersicht/w%C3%A4rmebild-einbaumodule-thermal-cores/ There is also a XGA variant but it is missing the price. There is no English translation yet.
Also, "Delivery only to tradesmen, industry, trade or research institutions."

It's not hard to say you're using it for industry so I don't expect that to be a problem. Maybe it's more for preventing use by another nations military
 

Offline bugi

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2019, 06:48:16 pm »
Thermal Expert now lists prices for their 1st and 2nd gen cores on the European website. https://www.thermalexpert.eu/deutsch/produkt%C3%BCbersicht/w%C3%A4rmebild-einbaumodule-thermal-cores/ There is also a XGA variant but it is missing the price. There is no English translation yet.
Also, "Delivery only to tradesmen, industry, trade or research institutions."
It's not hard to say you're using it for industry so I don't expect that to be a problem. Maybe it's more for preventing use by another nations military
If they believe me as easily, they'll believe pretty much anything else, including the stories from those that actually work for that another nation's military, pretending to do real business (especially when they actually do real business, too).
Also, if they want to be as easy about it, they could just as well just drop that whole limitation. Unless it is something about having to satisfy some legal/bureaucratic requirement which isn't really significant in practice.
And yet more, lets assume I just state "for industry", then they want more info... up to a point when a question comes that I won't be able to prove (say, they ask which company I'll be doing things for and want to confirm it from that company). Oops, I'm caught lying. Good chance I wouldn't be able to buy anything from them after that.

(The simpler solution sometimes used is to create a mini-company by oneself. I've been thinking to do that a few times, but it also has some bad sides to it.)

All theoretical for my case, though, I wouldn't be buying any of those any time soon, the TE-Q1 should be good enough for my needs for some years. I just thought to point that small limitation.
 
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Offline Hyper_Spectral

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Re: High resolution thermal cores for sUAS
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2019, 02:32:28 pm »
When asked about their competition beginning to package 1920x1200 thermal cores for sUAS, FLIR UAS Business Development Manager Brett Kanda told me "We are working on it!"

I'll keep pushing  :horse:
 
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