EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Thermal Imaging => Topic started by: Ultrapurple on November 08, 2018, 09:42:45 am
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"Defense Logistics Agency
"Eric Deal, DLA Strategic Material is handling a night vision lens/scope that contains germanium. The item is being held at the Hammond Depot until it can be sent to a contractor to remove the germanium."
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1840/43283537234_a0feb2fa82_z_d.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dlamil/43283537234/)
Picture from Flickr - click for original image, caption, photographer credits etc
Nooooooo!
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Yeah, it'll probably be one that's still considered 'strategic' or whatever BS term they use to keep it out of the hands of other countries.
A crying shame because in a few years it'll probalby have been removed from the list and available for sale to anybody.
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You think that image makes you cry, look at this one; you see even more of them:
http://www.dla.mil/News/Images/igphoto/2001734721/ (http://www.dla.mil/News/Images/igphoto/2001734721/)
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Anyone fancy a quick holiday in Hammond, Indiana?
Make sure your airline doesn't charge too much for excess baggage.
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I suppose the only thing to be thankful for is that they're not scrapping the germanium just to recover the aluminum.
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there are few sold in ebay. it'll save taxpayers money if they just send it to online surplus.
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What chances do we have that the 'contractor' is a forum member and we will see a slow rise in Ge elemtns on eBay soon?
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Judging by the prices some eBay sellers are asking for scrap germanium (piles of bits chipped off lenses, typically US $10 to $25 per gram), they probably do quite well recycling the stuff.
I have no idea how much readily accessible germanium there is in the world. Although Wikipedia says it's the 50th most abundant element in the Earth, the steps between ore and optical purity are many and, doubtless, expensive, so it makes sense (on an industrial scale) to recycle it. Presumably, if you're a military service that uses hundreds or thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of large lumps of germanium, 'keeping it in the family' is sensible. Chucking it into a melting pot and skimming off the crud that was formerly the coatings has to be much cheaper than going out with a pick and shovel...
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According to our old friend Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanium),
"The US government even designated germanium as a strategic and critical material, calling for a 146 ton (132 t) supply in the national defense stockpile in 1987.
"Germanium differs from silicon in that the supply is limited by the availability of exploitable sources, while the supply of silicon is limited only by production capacity since silicon comes from ordinary sand and quartz. While silicon could be bought in 1998 for less than $10 per kg, the price of germanium was almost $800 per kg."
I can see the point of recycling lenses but it's sad to see all that work (purification of raw materials, diamond turning, polishing, coating) going back to its base form.
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There is also the chance that optical elements in good condition, likely internal, are getting reserved and used in a different lens in the future.
If you are a defense contractor and tasked with designing a new lens for the DoD and they say that they have 3 kinds of elements in large stock - you can use that requirement.
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The item is being held at the Hammond Depot until it can be sent to a contractor to remove the germanium.
I read this as "germanium is dangerous, we'll remove it to protect the people using the lens" :-DD
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More like "we spent 1.5Bn to develop and manufacture 5000 of those and don't want China to have their hands on one and simple copy us on the cheap end.
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The price is increasing, but even now e-bay sellers are ripping you off...Or maybe it's just better to buy in quantity:
https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3780637/Tight-supply-of-raw-materials-pushes-up-germanium-prices.html (https://www.metalbulletin.com/Article/3780637/Tight-supply-of-raw-materials-pushes-up-germanium-prices.html)
As suggested in the Wikipedia article, the germanium is being removed from the lenses in order to be stockpiled in the form of large wafer-ready crystals. See this short video on the DLA web site:
http://www.dla.mil/HQ/Acquisition/StrategicMaterials/Offers/ (http://www.dla.mil/HQ/Acquisition/StrategicMaterials/Offers/)
The question might be whether they have reached or even increased that 146 ton threshold since 1987.
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I have resisted posting in this thread up until now. I am passionate about fine engineering and trust hate seeing it destroyed. Having worked inside a Government organisation I am very familar with correct disposal,processes. Anything "Unclassified" can go to auction but anything sensitive needs more careful handling and disposal. Sadly the age old method of disposing of "sensitive" equipment has been to put it beyond use. This often, but not always, meant destruction with blunt force trauma or equivalent !
Those of a 'sensitive disposition' regarding the disposal of fine engineering that is sensitive should avoid reading about Government disposal processes. They will bring tears to your eyes. Sometimes such destructiveness is definitely warranted whilst in other cases less drastic action may be possible such as 'decommissioning' that just disables rather than destroys. Removal of the sensitive data bearing assemblies being an example of such.
Whilst threads like this may shock and sadden some readers, including me, it is a fact of life in Government equipment disposal. It is better to be blissfully unaware of such. There is nothing that can be done about it.
The ex Government/Military lenses that appear on eBay are often originally from Government disposal auctions and come from decommissioned cameras. One-offs will often escape materials recovery. Others are harvested from destroyed military hardware in IRAQ and Afghanistan.
Sadly high quality Germanium Lenses can also be considered Dual Use technology, especially if Ex Military, so that is also a limiting factor when it comes to disposal.
Germanium is a valuable material so at least Uncle Sam recognises that fact and recovers it rather than just putting the whole Camera/Lens into a disintegrator :-+
Fraser
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And for those thinking that these lenses might be useful for use with your Longwave Cameras...... you can sleep soundly, I suspect that these are the very high quality optical assemblies from large and relatively old Stirling Cooled aircraft or Tank thermal imaging pods. They will likely be Mediumwave and of no use what so ever with a Longwave microbolometer ;)
They are simply scrap Germanium unless you own a large optical format Mediumwave camera.
Fraser
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Rember that guy that turned up with half an F-16 fighter jets in his garage and wanted to get the thermal camera to function? So... There might be some people out there interested in exactly those lenses. Likely not many and definitely not me.
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Well, there goes you tax money..... >:(
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For those worried about tax money ..... Best you do not ask how much the missiles cost that are used during live firing tests ! Sadly it's a fact of life for countries with armed forces. The costs are very scary as Russia found out.
That F16 Thermal imaging pod chap was a really nice guy. He just bought and sold scrap metal and electronics. I was the person helping him identify the parts within it and advising what to do with it. He fully understood the implications of selling such an item to the wrong people. It was broken up fit parts and was not re-commissioned. That Pod contained a very clever lens based scanning system where special angled lenses rotate at high speed. I found it to be a very interesting little project :) That one Pod cost Uncle Sam 1.3 Million Dollars. Its scrap worth was more like $1500. Kind of puts things into perspective eh ? ;D
Fraser
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I remember, I think, Bull Electrical selling some laser sights from tanks, they'd turned up in a surplus auction job lot and contained some bits the MOD didn't think should be in the hands of the public, apparently it was quite an interesting 'visit' for them.
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does it actually have scientific uses like making optical telescopes or something? can you actually build a system around that lens with something commercially available?
and its not used for light amplification right, only thermal imaging?
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Damn that's literally 15 minutes away from me. I'm guessing they're at the Hammond National Guard Armory. Sadly I'm also guessing that none of them would be available to the public even if they were LW.
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Damn that's literally 15 minutes away from me.
Ever fancied a change of career, perhaps working on a recycling site? :-/O
<sings> "I took it one piece at a time, and it didn't cost me a dime..."
(apologies to Johnny Cash - and to everyone who's honest!)
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The recycling site will not likely be anywhere near here. I'd imagine germanium melt/reclaim facilities are few and far between.
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Damn that's literally 15 minutes away from me. ...
Look up that Eric Deal guy & see if he's one of your neighbors. Maybe he can tell you something. I actually tried sending a message to the e-mail address on that DLA page I linked above and, not surprisingly, have gotten no reply.
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I did Google him, he is apparently in Chicago, not local. Also, the photo purported to be taken in Hammond was actually taken at the Anniston Army Depot in Alabama according to another link with the exact same photo - also naming Eric Deal.
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Okay, so which one is the real Deal? :D I thought I saw one in Valparaiso. If he is with DLA he could very well visit multiple bases as part of his work.
This version of the story on the DLA FaceBook page says it came from Anniston:
https://www.facebook.com/dla.mil/photos/a.422357432432/10156536378022433/?type=3&theater (https://www.facebook.com/dla.mil/photos/a.422357432432/10156536378022433/?type=3&theater)