Author Topic: Infiray Flip PH35-Best '640' bang-for-the-buck since Therm-App Pro discontined?  (Read 9239 times)

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Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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https://www.infiray.com/products/flip-ph35-thermal-imager.html
 
I spotted this, and am not sure how i missed it since it's been out for a bit- but I see it's at about $2800 (actually , $2200 at aliexpress, crazily enough) - $2800 generally- and i didn't think i'd see a non-thermal scope thermal imager at this spec level under 3K for ever- after watching the Therm App Pro go from 4k to 3k, then back to 4k (when i snagged it)- before the Therm-App lineup was discontinued


But 50 hz and 640X512 smells like a thermal scope core was used in this- but at that price point, in this form factor, it's picking up a area only the old Therm-App Pro had at that level
And even though I have a Therm-App Pro, this is tempting as hell

Does anyone on this Forum have one? How is the software? Does it let you control the camera well? How is infiray's software in general?

the Biggest thing, i've learned, is software can make or break a thermal camera- can you control the span, and range of the camera, or if not can you connect it to a computer and control  it? My therm-App Hz and Therm App Pro i use thermappplus 95% of the time because the OEM software doesn't let you control the span unfortunately
and therm-viewer has some control but it's finnicky and not as much...

And my FLIR pathfindir II is awesome 95% of the time- except the 5% when it rains heavily and drops get on the lens and the software adjusts the span the wrong way and the image gets dark, and i can't control it at all and it's hard to use- while my therm-apps, if water drops are on the lens incidentally, i use Therm-app plus to adjust the span- and see right through rain- and that makes all the difference with the amounts of money we throw at these.

Thoughts? Or did this escape everyone's attention?

Interesting , it's a stick with a GIANT FLIP screen
 

Offline Vipitis

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that's a curious product. The sensor being marketed as limited to 8100 units is really strange. Also Datasheet says it's a 20μm pixel pitch, which I have only seen in lens catalogs before.
If it could record lossless video it would be a really great product for my needs.
 

Offline Bill W

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A 20µ pitch and 35mm f/l lens gives the correct FoV for 640 horizontal so is consistent

That also means it must be displaying using only 640x360 to fit on the screen and give 21x11° FoV

Offline ArsenioDev

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The sensor being marketed as limited to 8100 units is really strange.
I'd bet this is "tail end" components of a manufacturing run that were surplus being rehomed into a unit to make extra profits on overstock, hence the limit and older pixel pitch (20um is fairly old at this point)
 

Offline Bill W

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I'd bet this is "tail end" components of a manufacturing run that were surplus being rehomed into a unit to make extra profits on overstock, hence the limit and older pixel pitch (20um is fairly old at this point)

20µm might be old (and also odd) but bigger pixels helps with S/N and lens design is less critical.  Even just the 35mm f/1 might be worth a fair chunk of the price.

Offline homestea

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I bought one of these on eBay for $1700 a few days ago.   I’ll report back when I get it with some videos and photos.  Looks like a pretty cool camera. 
 

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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Looking forward to this-

Curious how it fares in different situations as it seems to only have a 35 mm lens, which...if that's like my Therm App/Therm app Pro 35 mm lens, is more for zoom/ranged work only and not really useful in closer-range situations(but i have multiple lenses for that, for the Flip, wondering if it has varying zoom or whatnot)
 

Offline homestea

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Here are a few initial test videos I just uploaded to YouTube.   

https://youtu.be/vurldF8MA8c

https://youtu.be/7iWjiygj0Oc

Initial Impressions:  the unit has a nice solid feel.  Not too heavy but not too light either.  The screen is quite large and very bright.  I had no problems navigating all the menus after a few minutes of use.  It has zoom levels of 2x, 4x, and 8x.  It has manual focus and can focus down to about 3-4ft minimum to infinity.  It has 64GB of internal storage that will store a TON of photos and videos.  The refresh rate is quite snappy at 50HZ with almost no discernible lag.  The picture quality looks better in my opinion than that generated by a Flir T640BX I have.  It also comes with a quite nice  latchable foam carrying case with a handle.  I’ll post some close up photos of the device soon. 

Update: the attached photos look they they may have a bit of compression applied to them as those pictures look slightly better on the device than these uploaded here.   Also forgot to mention that this unit supposedly has up to a 9 hour battery life. Also has built in Wi-Fi so you can directly record to a phone and download photos or remotely view what the camera is capturing.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2023, 11:49:08 pm by homestea »
 
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Offline homestea

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Here are a few photos of the unit:
 
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Offline ArsenioDev

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WOW that is fantastic resolution and great images
 

Offline homestea

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I took the unit on a walk outside at about 9pm tonight. it was past sunset and dark. The temperature earlier in the day was about 95 degrees and it was about 80 degrees or so when these were taken. During the video I capture people, cars, rabbits, and even an airplane while experimenting with different settings including color pallet, sensitivity, zoom, etc. Sorry for the bad shakiness in some parts of the video. This video should give you a good feel for how the image quality looks.  The camera automatically splits the video footage into 5 minute long chunks.  Here are the 3 parts of the video

Part 1:  https://youtu.be/Jtet9KfipXg
Part 2:  https://youtu.be/_erSBxM3jVI
Part 3:  https://youtu.be/Vh1z1RVgjrg

So far overall I’m very pleased with the performance of this device given its relatively low cost.  The quality of the picture is equal or better than all FLIR brand devices I have ever owned including M18, M24, T640, P640, etc. and better than most other brand devices I have used as well.  The picture quality seems on close or on par with most 640 DRS core instruments I’ve used in the past too. 

« Last Edit: July 15, 2023, 05:18:25 am by homestea »
 
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Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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This is pretty insightful- and that's cool! It does look spectacular


Interesting that it zooms out well- i didn't expect it to perform so well zoomed out, for the widest view of a scene

-that's a little easier than me changing lenses on my Therm App Pro

-That 5 minute video limit though- hurts extremely badly, OOF- no way to get around that??

Also, can you control the span and push it up or down, for when in areas with hot things or fire, and cold stuff? Just curious
 

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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wanted to inquire if anyone else has picked up one of these very interesting units- I see Infiray's site no longer has them (tho the UK site still lists them)- and that aside from 3rd party sellers, these are running out of stock very fast. Was hoping to get a little more info on the, but might go ahead and get one before it's gone, to compare to my Therm App Pro


I REALLY don't see any other thermal cameras that have this nice a form factor  for the price (which has gone down even further- must be because places are getting rid of them)

-Shame it takes like every 5+ years for a  thermal camera to come out that's not 5 figures of a cost, or a thermal scope form factor
« Last Edit: May 21, 2024, 11:35:46 pm by Dark Volter »
 

Online zrq

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Apparently the PH35 is being replaced by PH35+, using 17 um sensor instead of 20 um of the original.
 

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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Considering the main Infiray sites no longer list it, ...is the Plus version something actively being made? Or did they indeed stop making all variants? Hmm
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Can you get the full 640x480 (or 512) resolution out of this?

All the videos I see online are cropped to 16:9 (so 640x360). Also, can you view the full 640x512 image on the screen? Or is it cropped to the 16:9 display aspect ratio?
 

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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I tried to pick one up from B and H photo Video a month ago- they had listed the Plus variant still in stock- I just got told the order is cancelled , because the manufacturer may be out of stock?

So, Did the last 640X 480 high-hertz Thermal Camera that's not a scope- just end it's run? This is sad if so- as it took a long while for Infiray to get going after Opgal did in 2014- alas, it might be a decade or more before price competitive non-thermal scope form factor thermals with midgrade specs become available. FLIR systems sure is not competitive capability wise at the Infiray Price points.

 

Offline gamerpaddy

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maybe these things popping up on ebay use the same sensor https://www.ebay.com/itm/176460951341
im not too sure about ordering something this expensive from china, but if they had a EU stock for 10..20% more, i would have bought one allready.

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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So, I just took the plunge on this and snagged one form Aliexpress, since they're now nearly gone completely, as mentioned before-

And have the device- I have the PH35+, which has a near-infrared Laser Rangefinder 


The immediate cons- it's all in chinese, in the device menus and settings. (though a lot of Icons as well which are obvious)

-I asked Infiray- and apparently while English prototype manuals are floating around (I got one of these from B and H photo video before they canceled my order due to not having any cameras)

- All Flips are in Chinese only.
Good thing it's easy enough to 100% figure out all the controls anyway................... Did not expect this

Wish they would make a Firmware update changing it to English

Aside from that- so far so good. Frame Rate is very fast

Am comparing it to my Therm App Pro and HZ- (mainly the Pro)- and while it's not as customizable (since i have all 3 of the apps made for the Therm app serie,s which offer a lot of options)-

The Infiray Flip seems to have some switches that make it easier to see in trickier conditions- looking forward to using those at some point  in adverse conditions to see how it affects the image

Aside from that,i 'ts a oversized, thermal camcorder lol- but it does fell well built
Theses are my initial impressions

Solid, but be warned, none were made with English in the menus (though the outside markings on the device are all English)



....

I also look forward to the far future when another ultra cheap device of this level of specs- that isn't a scope, but some other form factor, comes out
 

Offline Dark VolterTopic starter

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Something else I wanted to mention- turns out the Infiray FLIP does not record Audio- when taking video

....Little surprised at that , and wanted to let others know who might get it.

-So in that regard my Therm App Pro is better- but of course the Therm App pro has a phone with a mic on it...

It really seems like it's hard to get a (non-thermal scope form factor)Mid grade thermal for a competitive price with good capability and no missing features/gotchas, today- unlike the past decade sadly....

I do wish those who'd gotten one of these would have piped up, so we'd know about the chinese language / no audio bits though.

It's solid and clearly more geared towards outdoor stuff, so i'm really surprised people who use thermal scopes/do outdoor things haven't acquired one and maaybe chimed in here(since this is the only place on the web that talks about it)
 

Online DaneLaw

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How did the 64GB storage look on other users/owners that got InfiRay stand alone-models, like any of the FLIP series or the monocular scope models, when you attached it to fx PC to save the content.?

My unit saves a lot of data into a precompiler format [.pre) on pretty much all the 4 root folder-pibelines.  (tens of GB)
and I guess its unprocessed RAW precompiler content.?

Asked [Chat] if it was a precompiler-revenue of perhaps the chunked filestructure that I encounter on these models from InfiRay...
It's something you often see on fx actions cams, dash cams etc. to prevent corruption or simply to ease file management purposes, where each file, video, picture etc  - are the the exact same size, no matter if its a 3 sec. video or 3-minute video.
but it doesn't seem so' that these precompiled files are related to that chunked file-structure approach..  :-\
Quote
[*Chat]
No, a .pre file format is not specifically required for the approach of saving video or image data in equal-sized chunks. The .pre format you're referring to is likely specific to the thermal camera. (mentioned previously*)
It’s a proprietary format that stores thermal data, potentially including temperature readings, metadata, and other information, rather than standard video or image content.

For the type of chunked video saving approach you're asking about, it typically uses standard video file formats like:
MP4 (most common for video),
MOV, or
AVI, among others.
These formats use standard compression codecs such as H.264 or H.265 for video and AAC or PCM for audio. The video is split into multiple files, usually with a consistent size or duration (e.g., 5-minute chunks or 1 GB per chunk), but the format of the file itself remains standard, allowing for easy playback and editing.

How Chunked Video Files Are Typically Managed:
File System Limitations: The chunked video approach (such as fixed-size video segments) is often used because of limitations in the file system, especially with FAT32 (which has a 4 GB file size limit) or to make file management easier. For example, a camera could divide a long recording into multiple smaller files (e.g., video001.mp4, video002.mp4, etc.) with each file being 1 GB or 5 minutes long, making it easier to store, transfer, or back up.

Standard Formats (MP4, MOV, AVI): The files within these chunks would still be encoded in common video formats, and each chunk would just be a separate video file. This is different from the .pre format, which is more focused on thermal data, and not typically used for standard video content.

You do not need a .pre format for chunking video files. The .pre format is specific to storing thermal or radiometric data, while chunked video recording uses standard formats like MP4, MOV, or AVI. If you’re working with typical video recording (like for security cameras, dash cams, or action cameras), those systems would use these common video formats and simply divide the footage into chunks of consistent size or duration for easier file management.

Open or analyze .pre files.
Quote
[*Chat]
I currently cannot directly analyze files like .pre files, but I can provide guidance on how you might handle or open them based on common use cases for such file formats. .pre files are often used for thermal camera data, such as those from infrared (IR) cameras, and they may contain both thermal image data and temperature measurements.

Common Approaches to Open and Analyze .pre Files:
Manufacturer-Specific Software:

FLIR Tools or similar software: Many thermal cameras (including some models from InfiRay) often use proprietary file formats, such as .pre, which can only be opened and analyzed using the manufacturer's software. These software tools can:
Open the .pre file.
Display the thermal image.
Provide access to radiometric data (temperature values).
Allow for post-processing, measurements, and analysis of the thermal data.
If your thermal camera is from a specific manufacturer, it’s best to check their website or documentation for the official software to open and analyze .pre files. You can also contact their support if you can't find the right tool.

File Format Documentation:

Documentation: Sometimes, the .pre file format is mentioned in the camera's user manual or technical documentation. The document may explain how the data is stored and offer specific ways to access it. Some companies provide open access to their file formats or even provide SDKs (Software Development Kits) to interact with these files programmatically.
Generic Thermal File Viewers:

Thermal Image Viewers: While most proprietary formats like .pre are specific to certain manufacturers, some third-party thermal image viewers or analysis tools may support a range of formats. If you have access to the thermal image content but are unsure about the file extension, you might try opening the file with some third-party tools or check whether the file format is convertible to a more common one (like .jpg, .png, or .tiff).
Programming Approaches:

Use of APIs or SDKs: If you're comfortable with programming, many thermal camera manufacturers offer SDKs (Software Development Kits) or APIs that allow you to access and analyze thermal data from proprietary files (including .pre). You can write scripts in languages like Python or C++ to open the files and extract temperature data or visualize the thermal image.

For example:

Python libraries like OpenCV for image processing could potentially handle the visual content of a thermal image if converted to a compatible format.
Some thermal camera manufacturers offer APIs specifically for working with their data files, allowing you to access and analyze temperature values stored within.
Summary of Steps to Open .pre Files:
Check the Camera Manufacturer’s Software: Look for any software specifically designed by the camera manufacturer, like FLIR Tools (for FLIR cameras) or a similar software package from the camera brand you're using.
Contact Manufacturer Support: If you can't find a way to open .pre files, reaching out to the manufacturer's support might help, as they should be able to provide guidance on how to open and analyze these files.
Try Conversion Tools or SDKs: If you prefer a more programmatic approach, look for SDKs or APIs from the manufacturer to process the data or use generic image viewers that support thermal data.
If you provide more information about the camera model or manufacturer associated with the .pre file, I can try to offer more specific tools or software suggestions for you.

Anybody came across .pre files when working with some of the other thermal camera manufacturers and their PC or analyze software
fx some of the software from Forward Looking InfraRed/Flir, Fluke, Sense Batch, Thermoviewer etc.
Tried Thermoviewer, but it only supports their [thr, thc, them, tmc, tfc, cfc]..
« Last Edit: December 26, 2024, 06:21:25 am by DaneLaw »
 


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