Author Topic: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?  (Read 10571 times)

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Offline Bill W

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2021, 10:55:12 pm »
Do most vidicon era cameras expect to have a smoothing capacitor in parallel with the load, either at the camera end or load end of the coaxial cable?

No.  A capacitor that could smooth out that noise would also kill the syncs.


I have no idea what the sync signal source is for an Electrophysics Micronviewer. There's a couple ways the level could be an issue. If the level is too high, the capture dongle might intentionally reject the signal due to it thinking it's not a valid video signal. Also since using pulses of too high of a level (though usually outside of the picture area, unlike from my camera where they are inside the picture area) is a technique used by Macrovision for copyprotection, and since modern consumer video capture equipment is required by copyright law to respect copyprotection signals, it could be mistakenly seeing the out-of-spec image signal levels as being copyprotection signals, and thus refusing to capture the signal.

As I said, level is unlikely to be an issue.  NTSC chroma can hit 1.4V after all.  Junk where Macrovison or similar are coded might be possible:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/170667-What-Macrovision-looks-like


As for the difference between RS-170 and NTSC, the fact is that NTSC was actually developed to be compatible with RS-170 (using 59.94Hz field rate instead of 60Hz field rate) so that NTSC color video would still be viewable on older monochrome TV sets. So even a strict NTSC video capture device should not be so strict as to block RS-170 monochrome signals. If it's that strict, that seems like a defect in the capture device, or possibly that the camera itself is outputting a signal that as well out of spec for either NTSC or RS-170.

The CD22402 is WAY out of spec for RS-170 or NTSC.  4.0us syncs for a start.  However RS-170 kit was never that fussy (and maybe also had a CD22402 inside).

Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #51 on: October 29, 2024, 04:43:55 am »
The other big issue is the image is chopped into pulses. This was noticible on my Picoscope 2000 series scope, but just a week ago I got my Picoscope 5000 series scope, and it has a much higher maximum sample rate. Attached to this post is a screenshot PNG from the Picoscope software. The h-blanking and sync to the left of the active image line looks fine, but look at the image signal. It's chopped into pulses. The peek of each pulse is where the correct brightness is, but between these pulses it goes back to zero level.

I captured this with my Picoscope running at 250 million smp/sec. This sample rate gives me a bandwidth that is high enough to contain all the harmonics from the image chopped into pulses artifact I was describing. Bitdepth is set to 12bits per sample (needed to be this low to get the sample rate as high as I did, but still 16 times the vertical resolution of the Picoscope 2000 at 8bits). Voltage range is set to +/- 2 volts, and capture duration is 100ms. In the attached screenshot, I've zoomed in so you can see the detail I was talking about.

I also have a copy of the PSDATA file which has the full waveform, but it's 30MB in size, and that's larger than I can attach here. If you would like a copy of the PSDATA file (a proprietary Picoscope format which contains the full waveform, I believe using GZIP compression, as well as metadata like sample rate) so you can further examine the waveform, in an effort to help me debug my Micronviewer, please let me know where would like me to upload it so you can download it easily.
 

Offline Ben321Topic starter

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2024, 05:35:36 am »
Hey guys. I finally got some good data on the signal with my new Picoscope 5442D (which I posted in my above post), that should help some people here who are skilled in debugging these camera actually debug it for me. Yet nobody here has taken the recent data that I posted and even attempted to use it to help me. You know, my Micronviewer still has these signal issues, and they aren't going to go away on their own. So you guys need to help me debug it. Right now it's just sitting on a shelf, useless, because its video signal is so bad quality that it's unusable. I spent like $700 on the camera total ($500 to get the camera on eBay, only to find it required a power supply with a proprietary connector, a power supply which Cascade Laser was able able to sell me for another $200, and they really are the only company it seems even sells power supplies for this camera). Then just this year I finally spent another $2300 to get my Picoscope 5442D which I got primarily to debug this camera's video signal (it has the required bit depth and sample rate needed to get a good clean capture of the camera's video output waveform).

And after spending all this money just to capture the video waveform that I thought would help you guys to debug the camera for me, nobody is stepping forward to even TRY to help me. Where's @Fraser who's this forum's infrared camera expert? He hasn't even commented on my previous post, where I gave a detailed explanation of how the waveform looks as well as providing a screenshot from the Picoscope software to show the waveform (and even offered to upload the full waveform file directly to a file hosting site so someone could download it and examine it so as to be able to better understand the problem and help me with it). But even with all this, neither Fraser, nor anybody else, has even bothered to comment on the post to try to help me.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2024, 01:42:55 pm »
Ben321,

As you have named me in your request for help, I will provide a response.

Please try to understand the following…..

1. Many of us on the forum have busy lives so cannot always get involved in other peoples problems.
2. Personally, I have been very unwell since mid August so in no condition to offer much help to anyone, especially any sort of investigation into a fault.
3. We are all unpaid volunteers with lives of our own and whilst many of us help when able, please do not be surprised if we prioritise our life commitments higher than helping others to fix equipment via a forum.
4. People can only help to repair equipment if they have the required knowledge and information available to them. Repairing equipment remotely and relying on others to take measurements is both challenging and time consuming. I tend to repair equipment on my workbench where I can work efficiently to quickly narrow down the area of a fault. Remote repair is more involved as detailed instructions need to be written. I reverse engineer many camera PCB’s in order to repair them. Schematics are a luxury in this realm of electronics. I do not reverse engineer PCB’s remotely.
5. When someone buys a piece of equipment that turns out to be faulty, they are best advised to return it to the seller if they do not possess the knowledge to repair it. Repair can be an involved and protracted “adventure” for those unfamiliar with an equipment. It is unfair to keep the faulty item and expect someone else to diagnose it for you on their own time and free of charge.
6. You have thrown money at this project and I recall you unnecessarily spent a lot of money on a genuine power supply when any decent 12V power adapter would have worked perfectly fine. You then throw a large amount of money at a PICO digital Oscilloscope when a vintage cheap 20MHz analogue oscilloscope is all that is needed to diagnose and repair this camera. Without the required knowledge of this camera technology, you are throwing good money at it unnecessarily. I suggest that you stop blindly throwing money at this project.
7. The image that you have provided tells us absolutely nothing about the fault location within your camera. Treating the camera like a “mystery box” and trying to interpret its video output is not the most efficient way to diagnose a fault. You have to get inside the unit and “get your hands dirty”. Only when you have established which areas of the cameras PCB’s do what, can you move forward with diagnostic steps. I will list some key points in the diagnostic path below but you need to research the underlying principles of Vidicon camera technology if you want to diagnose the location of the fault, if indeed it is a fault and not an adjustment that is required in this elderly camera.

a) Power supply rails - identify and monitor all power supply rails and their voltages in the camera. Power supplies are a common failure in elderly equipment. Determine the correct rail voltages from silk screen voltage details (if present) or by reverse engineering the circuits. There will commonly be low voltage supply rails for analogue amplifiers, oscillators, logic circuits and the tube heater. Higher voltage power rails will feed the deflection coil drive circuits and internal parts of the tube. Referring to descriptions of Vidicon camera tube voltages will help here. Any electrolytic capacitors that look suspect, or if heavy ripple is present on a supply rail, requires the fitting of fresh new capacitors as they dry out over the years. Power supply issues can cause all manner of unusual fault symptoms.

b) Using an oscilloscope, monitor the Horizontal and Vertical tube yoke drive to ensure that all is well with those oscillators and drivers.

c) Use the “half split” method to monitor key points in the analogue video path from the Tube target, through to the BNC video output connector. In the case of a camera, you use the output of the Vidicon tube target pre-amplifier (NOT the target terminal itself as it is very high impedance). This is the “test signal” that will be traced through the video signal path. Make sure that the camera has a lens fitted and is focussed on a test scene (not too bright a scene though !) There will be a video signal representation of the test scene present at the output of the tube target pre-amplifier that you should study it to see if it is correct. The output is the result of the H and V scans of the electron beam on the target stimulating the signal production at the target output. If the target pre-amplifier output appears normal and reacts to a hand waved in the image path, you have your test signal to trace. Choose a point further down the video signal path (normally half way down the path) and monitor the video signal with an oscilloscope. Does the signal appear very similar to that seen at the pre-amplifier output ? If not, you need to carry out more tests in the video stages towards the tube end of the system. If all looks normal, proceed to check further down the video signal path, half way between the last test point and the output BNC connector. Does all look normal ? If not, you need to carry out more tests on the signal path between your previous test point and this current test point. If all is normal carry out more tests using the half split method. You should quickly locate the area where the video is degraded, suffers interference or parts of it disappear. Be warned, high voltages are present in these cameras so do not fry the front end of your oscilloscope ! The bit depth is not an issue when repairing these cameras. 8 bits DSO’s with a true 10MHz bandwidth and 100 MS/s sampling rate work just fine in such diagnostic routines. Along the video signal path you SHOULD see the original plain “video only” signal become amplified and combined with the usual monochrome composite video signal components of “front porch”, “back porch”, “Blanking”, “Horizintal Sync” and “Vertical Sync”. If an unusual additional signal appears in the video signal between two of your test points, use the oscilloscope to determine whether it is a random signal or structured, such as a clock signal. Then investigate that area of the signal path circuit to track down the abuse of the signal ingress onto the otherwise correct signal path.

Well that just about sums up what you need to do. You should do some reading on analogue Vidicon camera circuits and find some service manuals for monochrome Vidicon CCTV manuals from companies like Panasonic. (Google “Vidicon camera service manual” ) The service manuals will provide pictures of what a typical signal looks like along the signal path etc. They will also give you an idea of the voltages that you are likely to see in your camera at various points in the drive and signal paths.

You may think that your camera is different to a monochrome Vidicon CCTV camera, but you would be mistaken. Whilst tube bias voltages differ, it is the same technology base. FJW used to adapt standard Panasonic Vidicon CCTV cameras to SWIR cameras by installing a new imaging tube and modifying the power supply circuits to meet the new tubes requirements. The Panasonic CCTV camera became an FJW 85400A 1800nm SWIR camera. I may still have the service manual for the original Panasonic CCTV camera that they used but will need to check. It is not the same circuits as your Micronviewer but it shows signals and voltages common in this technology.

Fraser



« Last Edit: November 09, 2024, 02:08:00 pm by Fraser »
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Offline Fraser

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2024, 04:21:04 pm »
Some Micronviewer service information....
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Offline Fraser

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2024, 04:23:04 pm »
The service manual of an Ikegami Vidicon CCTV camera that will provide an insight into the electronics used in a Vidicon camera.
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Offline Fraser

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Re: What's wrong with my Electrophysics Micronviewer?
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2024, 02:36:05 pm »
This free support case has now been closed (Nil response from requester)
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