New Flir products

[mikeselectricstuff]

Flir One for Android, and New compact C2  self-contained imager ($699)
http://www.flir.com/instruments/content/?id=66732
http://www.flir.com/flirone/

[mikeselectricstuff]

Correction - Flir One for All IOS and Android (presumably 2 versions, maybe 3 if they learnt from Seek's one-direction-only USB plug issue)

[PA0PBZ]

"The perfect gift for a friend."

Looks like someone missed a deadline here... 

[Fraser]

Wow, its smaller than I expected so I presume it takes its power from the phone as is the case with the SEEK.

Sadly this could be a SEEK Thermal killer as the performance of the SEEK remains less than great and it doesn't matter how many pixels you have if you do not process them well enough for a decent image. FLIR are masters of such processing and even make 80x60 pixels look OK with their MSX and noise suppression algorithms.

I would certainly buy the new Android camera from FLIR. I wonder what the cost will be. If its close to the SEEK, I think it may be game over for that embryonic product. A case of the shark and minnow, if FLIR want SEEK Thermal out of the cheap TIC market, they could make it happen without breaking a sweat. Sad but true.

The C2 looks interesting as well. A bi-product of the dinky little DEMO unit ? Maybe FLIR always intended to build the C2 but it kinda kills the market for the weird TG165 hybrid.

Aurora

[nctnico]

I like the C2 too. Now who buys one and does a review? 

[mikeselectricstuff]

From here :
http://gizmodo.com/flirs-new-tiny-predator-vision-thermal-camera-now-fits-1677792125

Aiming for $250, surprising it has an internal battery - maybe teh MSX stuff pulls too much to run on power from the phone
With this at $250 I think Seek could be looking rather less attractive - MSX compensates for the lower res, and lepton noise/sensitivity is a lot better 

The C2 looks interesting as well. A bi-product of the dinky little DEMO unit ? Maybe FLIR always intended to build the C2 but it kinda kills the market for the weird TG165 hybrid.

Dave tweeted about something with a press date, and Flir have given him review stuff in the past

Pity it couldn;t have been closer to $499 - as is it's not much less than the price you can get an E4 for with discounts

[Fraser]

At $250 I see it killing the SEEK stone dead unless SEEK Thermal pulls their finger out and sort out both the gradient and noise issues. It would be a very sad end to the venture but the marketplace into which they have entered is evolving rapidly so they need a decent, well rounded product to compete.

As for the C2, I see it as much like my NEC Avio F30S, a compact camera fro the building inspectors pocket......BUT at 80x60 it does not meet the minimum resolution requirements of the UK building thermal survey regulations. I agree regarding price. I would have hoped for $450 though as the resolution is a limitation that cannot be ignored if doing building surveys. Isuspect any casual thermal surveys could be done well enough with the mini FLIR One for Android/iOS anyway. At $250 that is quite a saving over the C2.

This is why I am wondering if the new FLIR ONE is priced to kill the SEEK.

Aurora
Aurora

[Bud]

If it is hackable for reso then that would be it

[Fraser]

Sadly all indicators to date are that the LEPTON is an 80x60 microbolometer. It is, however, a well sorted camera module which is more than can be said for the present SEEK camera.

I need decent resolution (160x120 or greater) for electronics work but there are many users who would be happy with a more general thermal view combined with the MSX that provides the all important CONTEXT to the picture.

The question for buyers will be:

Do I want a ground breaking medium resolution thermal camera module from a 'start-up' company that has some image quality issues, and no sign of rectification to date,..... or do I settle for a similarly priced lower resolution module with MSX that is well sorted and from a company that has an excellent track record in the TIC manufacturing industry. When put in these terms, SEEK Thermal look vulnerable. They need to sort the issues with the SEEK camera, and fast.

I am just playing Devil's advocate here but FLIR are likely confident that their new babies will make a splash that will overshadow the troubled SEEK module.

Time will tell.

Aurora

[mikeselectricstuff]

The question for buyers will be:

Do I want a ground breaking medium resolution thermal camera module from a 'start-up' company that has some image quality issues, and no sign of rectification to date,....

...And poor customer service and communication...

[Fraser]

I have already signed up for first dibs on the new mini FLIR One for Android, and I already own a SEEK !

Aurora

[nctnico]

Sadly all indicators to date are that the LEPTON is an 80x60 microbolometer. It is, however, a well sorted camera module which is more than can be said for the present SEEK camera.

I need decent resolution (160x120 or greater) for electronics work but there are many users who would be happy with a more general thermal view combined with the MSX that provides the all important CONTEXT to the picture.

Isn't putting the camera closer to a circuit going to improve resolution or is a (sort of) fixed focus lense preventing that?

[encryptededdy]

I note there's no calibration slider - this could be using the lepton with the automatic shutter.

[encryptededdy]

Looking at the gizmodo article I notice two things;


1. Resolution seems higher than 1st gen... Or just image processing enhancements?

2. The image appears to be wide screen (continues under UI elements), filling the entire 16:9 iPhone screen. 80x60 is 4:3. Are they cropping (which would be stupid) or some software magic to fill in the space under the UI elements?

EDIT: they're being very vague (from FAQ);

The new FLIR ONE’s more powerful thermal camera has
been upgraded to generate image quality equal to or better than the original in every respect.
When combined with the VGA visible camera, FLIR ONE creates a crisper and clearer 640x480
image than ever before.

[vincentwrath]

same lepton sensor but better resolution, assume we can improve the current flir one by changing the firmware data .

[encryptededdy]

FLIR CEO Andy Teich at International CES 2015: http://youtu.be/ldbDDjtThuI

See 0:50

He says it's using a new lepton sensor with four tines the resolution! That's 160x120 (or a different ratio if it's really 16:9)

RIP seek

[-jeffB]

Whoops! The much higher resolution gave Seek a significant edge over Lepton for some applications, despite the noise and gradient issues. But 206x156 isn't a significant advantage over 160x120. If FLIR chooses to deliver a 160x120 Lepton at the same price point ($250), Seek is sunk.

I really hope that's not how this plays out. I'd like to see FLIR face enough competition to drive them to 320x240 in a consumer module. (Of course, I'd also like to see 30hz/60hz, and that's probably not in the cards any time soon.)

[Fraser]

New higher resolution LEPTON is a SEEK killer. It all comes down to the image quality and SEEK just isn't there yet.

It would not surprise me at all if FLIR borged SEEK Thermal at some point in the future.

My interest in the new FLIR One Android version has increased greatly with the resolution news.

Aurora

[-jeffB]

On the other hand, if FLIR takes several quarters to start shipping the module (like they did with the original ONE), maybe Seek can do something during that delay.

[Bud]

If the new Flir can also be hacked for menu features that would be another advantage, this in itself is a huge fun.

[mikeselectricstuff]

It would not surprise me at all if FLIR borged SEEK Thermal at some point in the future.

..but what does Seek have that Flir would want?

[mikeselectricstuff]

On the other hand, if FLIR takes several quarters to start shipping the module (like they did with the original ONE), maybe Seek can do something during that delay.

I think Flir went through a bit of a learning curve on their entry to the consumer space last time - hopefully next time things will go more smoothly (and they'll launch worldwide).
 
I think Seek's biggest problem is that they appear to be a one-product company, in a market that may well fad significantly when the novelty of "toy" thrmal imagers wars off.
Their sensor isn't good enough, nor sufficiently easy to integrate to be a threat to Lepton in the industrial market.
If the new Lepton really is 160x120, and has similar sensitivity and price to the old one, I can't see how anyone can compete with it - having Flir's signal-processing magic "baked in" is a huge advantage to lower volume developers.
 

[Fraser]

@Mike,

3 possible reasons

1. FLIR may not want anyone else buying SEEK to make use of the embryonic development that has been carried out on the new 12um microbolometer. Remember FLIR tried to stop its development and failed. Hence the 'Patent' pixels
2. There may be rights to the new 12um microbolometer that FLIR wish to gain control over ?
3. FLIR has a history of absorbing the competition 

Aurora

[efahrenholz]

I don't see flir selling the enhanced lepton core at a comparable price to the older module. They have a history of marking up the cost of their inventory. There are lots of 80x60 lepton cores floating around, and they won't be able to move them unless the new core is at least twice the cost if not higher. The pocket imager will obviously use up the remaining inventory of 80x60 modules in the mean time. The new imager is just a cheap shot at Seek, since it was somewhat a successful product model. Whatever price it ends up at, people will come in droves for it, unless Seek manages to fix the image quality issues of their current module.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I don't see flir selling the enhanced lepton core at a comparable price to the older module. They have a history of marking up the cost of their inventory. There are lots of 80x60 lepton cores floating around,

How do you know they have a lot of inventory?
Why would they make a ton of 80x60s if they knew a bigger one was coming?

..of course we're assuming the current part is actually 80x60