Author Topic: New Flir products  (Read 178539 times)

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Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #225 on: August 18, 2015, 09:05:01 am »
Seams the best price is with rs-online.uk (or .es),
they offer 15% till August.21 for new customers,
maybe it is worth to register Grandma/Uncle to get this reduction ?
Their estimated dispatch date is in October...
 

Offline FlirOneFan

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #226 on: August 18, 2015, 09:13:27 am »
Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...

Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #227 on: August 18, 2015, 09:35:49 am »
Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...

Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
AFAIK they haven't shipped any Android units apart from a few for reviews. There aren't any on ebay.
My order went in within a couple of minutes of getting the announcement email.
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Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #228 on: August 18, 2015, 09:46:41 am »
Does anybody know if flir stopped delivering the flir one for Android completely (due to technical / SW issues) - or are they just overwhelmed by the demand? Most shops in Germany have removed flir one second gen for iOS and Android completely from their stores...

Dirk (delivery delayed over and over again...)
As Mike said, they haven't shipped any FLIR One Android units, apart from review ones.

Per the emails received by Mike & Aurora, and my contact with FLIR & Amazon, it looks like the shipping date has been pushed back to 10th September.
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #229 on: August 22, 2015, 05:01:07 am »
I've had my FLIR One V2 for iOS for about a month now, so far it's been great :) If anybody has some requests for specific images they'd like to see taken with it, I'll do my best to do so.  Here's a couple random pics I've taken in the meantime.
 

Offline the1snm

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #230 on: August 22, 2015, 12:44:25 pm »
Could you try a long distance shot for me? I'm considering buying one of these to replace a Seek XR for spotting deer and such 100+- out. The Seek does ok but the low sensitivity makes it tough sometimes. Even though the Flir One has a smaller sensor in hoping the much higher sensitivity will make up for it. So if possible could you test on dog to human sized targets at distance that would help me out tremendously. Thanks a bunch in advance!


Sent from my iPhone
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #231 on: August 23, 2015, 04:07:45 am »
Could you try a long distance shot for me? I'm considering buying one of these to replace a Seek XR for spotting deer and such 100+- out. The Seek does ok but the low sensitivity makes it tough sometimes. Even though the Flir One has a smaller sensor in hoping the much higher sensitivity will make up for it. So if possible could you test on dog to human sized targets at distance that would help me out tremendously. Thanks a bunch in advance!


Sent from my iPhone
The FLIR One has a much wider angle lens than the Seek XR, so any image quality improvements will be negated by the wider field of view. The XR has a 20º FOV, while the FLIR One's lepton3 sensor is 56º

If I were you I would save up and try to buy a Therm-App, which, with it's 19mm lens, will offer a much better experience than either the Seek XR or the FLIR One.

Here's a rudimentary test I found on YouTube (without MSX as that's what you'll be seeing at night):
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 04:12:58 am by encryptededdy »
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #232 on: August 23, 2015, 04:10:13 am »
I think that the seek xr, with its ability to focus the lens and with about a 2x magnified image, is probably gonna be the better performer at distance, but I took a couple images for u to compare with your seek.  They're of my sister in front of my garage with her arms out, she's about 5'6.  One is at 50ft and the other at 100ft taken at night. I hope that helps :)
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #233 on: August 23, 2015, 04:21:46 am »
Here's a example I found of a Therm-App picture with it's default 19mm lens of people 150 yards / ~135m away.

 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #234 on: August 23, 2015, 04:41:51 am »
I think one of the issues with the FLIR One is that it's automatic gain control uses histogram equalization, which is not optimal for detecting objects in the night. Here's a example.

The following is a picture of a dog in a backyard (pulled from arstechnica FLIR One review).



While it's possible to see the dog, it's not very well defined - this is because of the way the FLIR One AGC works. If you look at the temperature bar on the right, you'll see that a large range of the temperature bar is white/light grey. This is because the histogram equalization - the AGC tries to make sure there's the same amount of each shade of grey visible on the screen at once. This means that when the dog (high temp) appears very small on the screen, a very large majority of the image is much lower temperature than the dog - therefore the AGC "boosts" the colour of these parts, such that the lower temperature parts are spread across a wider part of the grey spectrum. This significantly decreases visible contrast between the dog and it's background (even though there is a big temperature contrast), however it increases the details visible in the background. This makes this algorithm much more useful for thermography, and not very useful for detection in the night.



I have now changed the distribution mode to Linear from Histogram Equalization. Immediately you can see that the temperature bar on the right is completely linear and now the dog is very clearly visible (however you do lose some background details). This is because the high thermal contrast between the dog and the background is displayed as such.

Given a smaller target, this effect will be even more profound.

Unfortunately it's only possible to change the AGC mode FLIR Tools or similar after taking the picture - the FLIR One viewfinder doesn't allow for this (might be possible with SDK).

The Therm-App on the other hand allows for a "Night-vision" mode which afaik is similar to FLIR's DDE (as found in the NV monocular products) which allows for the high contrast to be seen while also preserving details in the background.

However, I understand that the Therm-App at $939 might be outside of your price range. Let's hope someone can apply some enhancements to the image via. the FLIR One SDK.

Redshift1340, if you could post the raw FLIR One images of your test, we will be able to check and probably find that with a linear AGC your sister will be much more visible on the image.
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #235 on: August 23, 2015, 06:58:23 am »
I've been posting from my iPad because my laptop has been overheating, so I'm not sure how to post the raw photos. I did open the pic in my FLIR Tools app and tried to tweak it a bit, and I think it's showing a linear AGC.

Sorry, I had to do a screen grab for the pic because for some reason when I save changes using the FLIR Tools app and export the image to my photo album, there's some loss of quality and the data overlays, i.e. Temperature scale bar, crosshairs, Measurement box, etc. are all very low resolution and pixelated as you can see in the third image.
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #236 on: August 23, 2015, 08:05:30 am »
Yeah, unfortunately none of those are radiometric so we can't change the AGC mode.

You'll need to supply the picture straight from the FLIR One app (it'll be 250kb+), however I guess that might not be possible from the iPad.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #237 on: August 23, 2015, 09:43:26 am »
I think one of the issues with the FLIR One is that it's automatic gain control uses histogram equalization, which is not optimal for detecting objects in the night. Here's a example.

The following is a picture of a dog in a backyard (pulled from arstechnica FLIR One review).



While it's possible to see the dog, it's not very well defined - this is because of the way the FLIR One AGC works. If you look at the temperature bar on the right, you'll see that a large range of the temperature bar is white/light grey. This is because the histogram equalization - the AGC tries to make sure there's the same amount of each shade of grey visible on the screen at once. This means that when the dog (high temp) appears very small on the screen, a very large majority of the image is much lower temperature than the dog - therefore the AGC "boosts" the colour of these parts, such that the lower temperature parts are spread across a wider part of the grey spectrum. This significantly decreases visible contrast between the dog and it's background (even though there is a big temperature contrast), however it increases the details visible in the background. This makes this algorithm much more useful for thermography, and not very useful for detection in the night.



I have now changed the distribution mode to Linear from Histogram Equalization. Immediately you can see that the temperature bar on the right is completely linear and now the dog is very clearly visible (however you do lose some background details). This is because the high thermal contrast between the dog and the background is displayed as such.

Given a smaller target, this effect will be even more profound.

Unfortunately it's only possible to change the AGC mode FLIR Tools or similar after taking the picture - the FLIR One viewfinder doesn't allow for this (might be possible with SDK).

The Therm-App on the other hand allows for a "Night-vision" mode which afaik is similar to FLIR's DDE (as found in the NV monocular products) which allows for the high contrast to be seen while also preserving details in the background.

However, I understand that the Therm-App at $939 might be outside of your price range. Let's hope someone can apply some enhancements to the image via. the FLIR One SDK.

Redshift1340, if you could post the raw FLIR One images of your test, we will be able to check and probably find that with a linear AGC your sister will be much more visible on the image.

Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #238 on: August 23, 2015, 12:00:24 pm »
Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.

Kind-of. You can lock the span.



It would be a bit annoying to lock it every time you open the app, but it would certainly increase contrast.



Increasing the minimum temp by just a few degrees completely removes all background details. Probably not optimal for night vision but would work for detection only.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #239 on: August 23, 2015, 02:21:01 pm »
Yes, when narrowing in on details I like to increase the bottom of the span as much as possible just until the point that the target starts to be affected.
 

Offline kahe40

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #240 on: August 23, 2015, 07:18:50 pm »
>> You'll need to supply the picture straight from the FLIR One app (it'll be 250kb+), >> however I guess that might not be possible from the iPad.

Attachments from iPad are Images or Videos only, but
you can upload to Dropbox or similar Cloud, and post the link here.

So in FlirApp ImageViewer bottom left there is Open With...
select Dropbox there, (same with FlirTools you already have done)
then make a PublicFolder in Dropbox and post the Link here.

I have tested with an ExampleImage and see it in Dropbox
as   xxx.jpeg   with  331 KB, maybe it is radiometric.
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #241 on: August 23, 2015, 11:02:26 pm »
Ok I've set up a Dropbox account, hopefully this works :-\ one of the files is a bit smaller, but it could be because it was compressed after I edited it with FLIR tools.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/9i8yuc7ng2ma6ec/AAA4veNj6R5qFkFuxEHVySG1a?dl=0
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #242 on: August 24, 2015, 03:59:09 am »
Well that's awkward. Looks like it's worse when set to linear.



This is most likely because the sky is in view, therefore the minimum temperature span is set to -30 degrees, significantly reducing contrast. (also interestingly the FLIR One is only meant to go down to -20, but it reads -30 just fine). By setting the AGC region to the bottom half of the screen, the image is improved, but is still not optimal.







So I guess I was wrong - maybe the AGC mode only matters in some circumstances.
 

Offline the1snm

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #243 on: August 24, 2015, 11:40:44 am »
Is it possible to manually set the span on the Flir One?
If you narrow the span (in particular increase the value of the bottom of the scale) you will get a better contrast on your target. As you say this is at the expense of your background detail but that's usually not the important thing.

Kind-of. You can lock the span.



It would be a bit annoying to lock it every time you open the app, but it would certainly increase contrast.



Increasing the minimum temp by just a few degrees completely removes all background details. Probably not optimal for night vision but would work for detection only.

Thanks for the replies I appreciate it. From what I can see it's a bit of a mixed bag as in some ways it seems better. Regarding the contrast detail setting the span is definitely a way to boost that detection. I'm not looking to hunt per se with this or the Seek I'm really looking for detection capabilities so loosing the contrast like with the dog example isn't a huge one for me. I'm more trying to detect something is there versus a true night vision device. While I'd love to get the ThermApp it is out of my price range at the moment for what I'm trying to do. What I found is that the Seek's low sensativity made it tough here in South Carolina during most times of the year to get a detection outside. Here is an example I posted in another forum months ago:

Here's a case of a picture I took of my dog well doing what dogs do in the backyard at roughly 40ft while it was 78 outside I think. It was detecting the dog at nearly the same temp as the ambient so nearly didn't see it.


Here is a case where after multiple attempts with a buddy of mine across an open field I got a decent detection at approximately 200yds on an evening when it was about 62 at the time. Those are Tree's behind him and a touch of the sky peeking in too.


While looking across a field this isn't half bad and gets me what I'm looking for out of this it was a different story in the bush so to speak. This was probably one of the best distant heat sigs I got the whole time I used it. Many times when I tried to use it while behind my buddy it would have trouble seeing him in front of me only 30-40 feet. When not looking at the camera screen I could easily and clearly see him but because of that low sensitivity it had difficulty when looking through the trees because of the ambient mix the sensor experienced. In other words while wearing clothes or covered in fur it would detect the body temperature in the 70's typically and if it was high 60's to 80's out there would be so much else around the object close to that temperature that like the picture of my dog above it could barely differentiate it out. It also seemed to make pretty big difference whether the object your looking for was broadsided or bladed to you also.

Building off that thought I contacted Seek about what I was seeing and the troubles I was having detecting things like my dog and that gave me an interesting but a little unexpected response. I was told per Seek it can take 5-7 min for it to settle in before each device is working optimally, this in it self isn't huge but good to know. Now though by optimally they say they have a margin of error of *5 degrees* and I can confirm this as I ordered a second XR and used on another IOS device side by side and it consistently registered 2 or 3 degrees hotter. Now 2 or 3 degrees didn't sound like much at first but when your talking about sensitivity issues I was looking at above it seemed that taking ambient into account that could mean the difference between seeing your dog in the back yard or not. Wow when I typed that out and reread the last sentence it makes the problem sound so first world and petty ;D.

Thanks guys,
Steve
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #244 on: August 24, 2015, 01:52:56 pm »
I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.

Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.

The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.

Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.
 

Offline the1snm

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #245 on: August 25, 2015, 03:47:50 pm »
I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.

Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.

The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.

Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.

I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?

Regarding being 2/3 the way to ThermApp I would agree except the 2nd Seek I got was a warranty replacement to hopefully fix my issue of having uneven readings on my screen. I could look at a solid object of all the same color and the edges would be discolored as if a different temp. Turns out this was later fixed in a software release but as a result the replacement did it too and I ended up sending both back. So at the moment I'm Flir-less but I definitely want to get another one here in the very short term as the scouting season is getting underway. I was also kinda hoping that Seek might be releasing an updated product soon too but haven't heard a peep on that either.

Steve
 

Offline Redshift1340

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #246 on: August 25, 2015, 10:10:18 pm »
I think your best bet if you choose to stay with seek is to see if anyone releases a app using the SDK the hopefully allows for manual ranging.

Also try using the rainbow pallete as you may get slightly more contrast.

The reason why your dog appears so faded is because of the very wide minimum span of the Seek. The FLIR Ones minimum span is much narrower, which will give you more contrast.

Then again for the price of your 2 Seek XRs, you're already 2/3 of the way to the cost of a Therm-App.

I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?

Regarding being 2/3 the way to ThermApp I would agree except the 2nd Seek I got was a warranty replacement to hopefully fix my issue of having uneven readings on my screen. I could look at a solid object of all the same color and the edges would be discolored as if a different temp. Turns out this was later fixed in a software release but as a result the replacement did it too and I ended up sending both back. So at the moment I'm Flir-less but I definitely want to get another one here in the very short term as the scouting season is getting underway. I was also kinda hoping that Seek might be releasing an updated product soon too but haven't heard a peep on that either.

Steve

Apparently Seek have updated their non-XR version with a manual focus ring, but that's all I've heard about them releasing an updated product.
 

Offline tomas123

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #247 on: August 26, 2015, 10:20:14 am »

Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?

USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #248 on: August 26, 2015, 10:31:49 am »

Is this an (working) adapter, to connect a Flir One (Gen 2 Android) with a PC?

USB 2.0 Male to Micro-B Female Adapter
Just USB-wise, yes. But are there suitable drivers/software to use the camera with a PC?
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline encryptededdy

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Re: New Flir products
« Reply #249 on: August 26, 2015, 11:29:29 am »
I assume by a wide minimum span of the Seek your referring to the temperature differential pixel to pixel? In other words the ability to detect a sense a 76 degree item in a 75 degree room? I thought I remember reading that the Seek has a 1 degree "Sensitivity" I was calling it and the FlirOne has a .1 degree sensitivity. I don't know all the lingo so if we're talking about the same thing I've learned something new with span. Is the span of the seek controlled via software or is it something hardware limited?

As you know, a thermal imager normally maps the colour at the top of the LUT (eg. White) to the hottest object in the scene, while mapping the colour at the bottom (eg. Black) to the coldest object. However, as the difference between the hottest and coldest decreases, more image noise is visible (as you're stretching a smaller signal difference to fit a large colour span).

The seek has a wide minimal span. This means that the colour mapping will react as you expect down to a certain point (eg. 5 degrees difference). After that, the hottest is no longer mapped to white - it's mapped to slightly brighter grey and cold is mapped to slightly darker grey. This is to hide noise.

We can manually use photoshop to change the span of your dog photo to make sure the full pallet of black -> white is used, thereby simulating what would happen without a minimal span/a narrower minimal span.



Holy noise - You can clearly see why seek have set a minimal span limit.

So yeah, it's technically a software limit, however the software limit exists because the hardware cannot generate good images at low temperature spans.
 


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